Solar Heating a Garden Plunge Pool
Discussion
All, I need your opinion on my Heath Robinson bodge up pool heater idea.
I'll be having my garden patio re-done in the spring and as part of the design I am considering an above ground pool.
The pool will be 10 ft in diameter and 4ft deep and will sit in an area that will be dug out by 2-3 feet, so the top will be 1-2 ft above ground level. Now the UK climate isn't really suitable to unheated outdoor pools so my thoughts turned to heating.
Have you ever picked up a black garden hose that has been in direct sunlight for any period of time? The water is scalding hot, so I thought about using this principal to heat the water in the pool by mounting a large, black painted radiator on my south facing single storey extension roof and running a hose from the pool filter up and through the radiator and back to the pool again.
Does anyone think this would warm the water in the pool with any sucess? The volume of water in the pool would be approx 8,800 litres.
Cheers for your ideas
Pete
I'll be having my garden patio re-done in the spring and as part of the design I am considering an above ground pool.
The pool will be 10 ft in diameter and 4ft deep and will sit in an area that will be dug out by 2-3 feet, so the top will be 1-2 ft above ground level. Now the UK climate isn't really suitable to unheated outdoor pools so my thoughts turned to heating.
Have you ever picked up a black garden hose that has been in direct sunlight for any period of time? The water is scalding hot, so I thought about using this principal to heat the water in the pool by mounting a large, black painted radiator on my south facing single storey extension roof and running a hose from the pool filter up and through the radiator and back to the pool again.
Does anyone think this would warm the water in the pool with any sucess? The volume of water in the pool would be approx 8,800 litres.
Cheers for your ideas
Pete
Absolutely no chance i'm afraid mate.
Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this
)
Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this
)Perfectly possible. I have a solar hot water heating system and it provides all my hot wter for about 70%of the year and I live in mid-Wales!! I do have the advantage of a good south facing roof.
I have two evacuated tube arrays and in the summer I'm frequently dumping excess heat, a my large 250l tank is already at 70 degree's C!!
You don't need to heat the water to that sort of temperature and even on winter days I get a tank lift on the solar to over 20 degrees. You will need a realitively large evacuated tube array(s) though.
I suggest that you talk to a solar expert, there are many people heating swimming pools with solar (and supplementing it if required). Have a chat with Jutin at jwsolarsolutins.co.uk Plenty of pools here http://www.jwsolarsolutions.co.uk/Solar--Thermal-I...
Using Photovoltaic is definitely the wrong way to go, as they panels are very ineffecient (and expensive)compared with evacuated tubes for hot water.
I have two evacuated tube arrays and in the summer I'm frequently dumping excess heat, a my large 250l tank is already at 70 degree's C!!
You don't need to heat the water to that sort of temperature and even on winter days I get a tank lift on the solar to over 20 degrees. You will need a realitively large evacuated tube array(s) though.
I suggest that you talk to a solar expert, there are many people heating swimming pools with solar (and supplementing it if required). Have a chat with Jutin at jwsolarsolutins.co.uk Plenty of pools here http://www.jwsolarsolutions.co.uk/Solar--Thermal-I...
Using Photovoltaic is definitely the wrong way to go, as they panels are very ineffecient (and expensive)compared with evacuated tubes for hot water.
Herbs said:
Absolutely no chance i'm afraid mate.
Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this )
But then you're doing two conversions? And losing out both times, using the sun to heat the water direct has to be the best way. A black painted radiator will be nowhere near as efficient as a proper vacuum tube solar panel, but depends how much he's willing to spend!Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this
)you're both missing the point. A standard size cylinder holds approx 160-210 litres of water. His pool holds 8,800 litres - 55 times the amount.
Of course it is possible, but a decent household thermal system uses a panel made up of circa 20 tubes covering 2m2. Obviously his pool won't be heated to anywhere near that temperature but would still require a massive system to even notice a difference in water temperature.
It's a non starter unless you want to throw silly money at it and have an eyesore in your back garden
Of course it is possible, but a decent household thermal system uses a panel made up of circa 20 tubes covering 2m2. Obviously his pool won't be heated to anywhere near that temperature but would still require a massive system to even notice a difference in water temperature.
It's a non starter unless you want to throw silly money at it and have an eyesore in your back garden
My cylinder is 250L and I have 2 x 20 tube arrays, as the system has been designed to support a second 250L tank. Typical swimming pool installations seem to use around 5 x 20 tube arrays, approx 10sq m.
Agree they would be an eyesore, but you would need an even larger area of photo voltaics. So your partly right but your original suggestion was definitely wrong!!!
Agree they would be an eyesore, but you would need an even larger area of photo voltaics. So your partly right but your original suggestion was definitely wrong!!!
My parents have a black tube type system installed on their pool. I know they bought a load of "manifolds" (single big tube into lots of little tubes) from a guy in the UK, and have a shed load of black (irrigation) tubing that connects to the manifolds. Water is pumped by extra capacity on the standard pool pump. Works well, though they are in southern Spain. The aim was to increase the temp by 2-3 deg meaning they can swim longer into the winter. Think My mum's been swimming in December, so must do something!
Won't make the water hot, but think of it as adding a few degrees to take the chill off a bit. Best thing is if you have hide the tube somewhere (garage roof, large pergola etc) as it's pretty ugly.
Won't make the water hot, but think of it as adding a few degrees to take the chill off a bit. Best thing is if you have hide the tube somewhere (garage roof, large pergola etc) as it's pretty ugly.
I expect that buying proper evacuated tubes would not be worth it for an above ground jobbie.
However, I do think that if you can circulate the pool water through a shed roof system facing south, you'd get some tangible temperature rise using miles of black pipe, black radiators under glass, etc etc.
Good project to play with.
Look here for loads of info on Solar Thermal and projects:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/board,6...
Do a search for pools, I'm sure you'll find something!
However, I do think that if you can circulate the pool water through a shed roof system facing south, you'd get some tangible temperature rise using miles of black pipe, black radiators under glass, etc etc.
Good project to play with.
Look here for loads of info on Solar Thermal and projects:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/board,6...
Do a search for pools, I'm sure you'll find something!
Herbs said:
...Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this )
ROFL.Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this
)Herbs said:
Absolutely no chance i'm afraid mate.
Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this )
Sorry Herbs but that's utter rubbish. Photovoltaic (ie mono/polycrystalline electric panels) are not efficient, very expensive (read £15k for a grid-back system capable of providing enough energy to power a pool that size and even then it would only raise the temperature by a couple of degrees), and to use the electricity to then run heaters is a complete waste of time and money. Loss after loss after loss.Your best bet would be to get some photovoltaic panels and use them to power electric water heaters (think tropical fish tank but on a much larger scale)
Even them i'm not sure it would be worth the effort to TBH
(I work for a solar company so have a pretty good knowledge on this
)There are only really three ways to do this properly; One is to use evaporated tube solar collectors, which would require a lot space to mount the 50 plus tube system you would need for that capacity. The second would be a ground loop heat pump system, which would again need a load of space to bury the fillament pipes, and we are talking in excess of 300 metres to heat that much water. The last option is to use conventional pool heaters which are oil or gas fired - they are expensive to run and expensive to buy.
What exactly do you do for the company you work for? Make Tea
Edited to add:
Paul Drawmer said:
I expect that buying proper evacuated tubes would not be worth it for an above ground jobbie.
However, I do think that if you can circulate the pool water through a shed roof system facing south, you'd get some tangible temperature rise using miles of black pipe, black radiators under glass, etc etc.
Good project to play with.
Look here for loads of info on Solar Thermal and projects:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/board,6...
Do a search for pools, I'm sure you'll find something!
Good call. My neighbour has a hot tub which he heats by running large coils of black piping through a polycarbonate roof (like used in conservatories) and he says it reduces his heating bill by half. He uses a washing machine motor as a circulation pump (I supplied it). This is the route I would go down as it's very cost effective.However, I do think that if you can circulate the pool water through a shed roof system facing south, you'd get some tangible temperature rise using miles of black pipe, black radiators under glass, etc etc.
Good project to play with.
Look here for loads of info on Solar Thermal and projects:
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/board,6...
Do a search for pools, I'm sure you'll find something!
Edited by Lord Flathead on Thursday 30th December 13:45
Its perfectly possible to heat a pool with Solar, but you'll need some roof space. My father had a 28,000 gallon pool heated by solar (had an oil boiler as well but hardly used it). ISTR there were about 10 panels around 3m x 1.5m (he had a row of outbuildings near the pool & the panels were on top of those, you couldn't see them.) As above, that was for 28,000 gallons (125K litres). Those panels were also installed in about 1980 so doubtless modern panels would be much more efficient.
IIRC there are two types for panels for heating water - the ones that are used for domestic hot water are "high temperature" panels. The ones you would use for a pool are different (and I think cheaper) low temperature panels.
IIRC there are two types for panels for heating water - the ones that are used for domestic hot water are "high temperature" panels. The ones you would use for a pool are different (and I think cheaper) low temperature panels.
Edited by IainZ on Thursday 30th December 13:48
Granted i haven't explained this properly but if you actually read what the OP said and what I have said:
OP: Bodge job pool heating system
Me: No Chance
Me: Non-starter
Me: Even then not worth the effort (PV)
PV is cheaper to buy than evacuated tubes and easier to bodge (or evaporated as someone said
) and going for a full evacuated array is neither bodging or cheap.
Would I do either? nope (which is what i have said all along)and certainly wouldn't recommend using PV but for a home bodge system it is easier to "bodge"
OP: Bodge job pool heating system
Me: No Chance
Me: Non-starter
Me: Even then not worth the effort (PV)
PV is cheaper to buy than evacuated tubes and easier to bodge (or evaporated as someone said
) and going for a full evacuated array is neither bodging or cheap.Would I do either? nope (which is what i have said all along)and certainly wouldn't recommend using PV but for a home bodge system it is easier to "bodge"
Herbs
In purely water heating systems I'd like to see some proof that PV is cheaper than evacuated tubes.
My tubes came from http://www.eco-nomical.co.uk/SolarWaterProduct.htm and I'd wouldn't have said that they were expensive.
Interestingly when we had our system fitted, it wa cheaper to go for a non-grant based system rather than go for a grant based system as these 'approved' suppliers tend to be a lot more expensive.
Obviously there are some PV benefits at the moment with government funds being available on grid tie-in systems.
In purely water heating systems I'd like to see some proof that PV is cheaper than evacuated tubes.
My tubes came from http://www.eco-nomical.co.uk/SolarWaterProduct.htm and I'd wouldn't have said that they were expensive.
Interestingly when we had our system fitted, it wa cheaper to go for a non-grant based system rather than go for a grant based system as these 'approved' suppliers tend to be a lot more expensive.
Obviously there are some PV benefits at the moment with government funds being available on grid tie-in systems.
DavidY said:
Herbs
In purely water heating systems I'd like to see some proof that PV is cheaper than evacuated tubes.
My tubes came from http://www.eco-nomical.co.uk/SolarWaterProduct.htm and I'd wouldn't have said that they were expensive.
Interestingly when we had our system fitted, it wa cheaper to go for a non-grant based system rather than go for a grant based system as these 'approved' suppliers tend to be a lot more expensive.
Obviously there are some PV benefits at the moment with government funds being available on grid tie-in systems.
I was talking purely about the price per panel not as a whole system. Heating domestic water via electric is one of the most expensive ways and certainly not suitable for a household.In purely water heating systems I'd like to see some proof that PV is cheaper than evacuated tubes.
My tubes came from http://www.eco-nomical.co.uk/SolarWaterProduct.htm and I'd wouldn't have said that they were expensive.
Interestingly when we had our system fitted, it wa cheaper to go for a non-grant based system rather than go for a grant based system as these 'approved' suppliers tend to be a lot more expensive.
Obviously there are some PV benefits at the moment with government funds being available on grid tie-in systems.
The sellers of pool solar heaters recommend the panels to be at least 30% of the surface area of the pool.
There is a thermo controlled diverter valve so that water is not sent to the panels when the panel temp is below that of the pool.
As with any heating you have to use a solar cover (bubble wrap
) to prevent overnight heat loss.
Pools do not suddenly get hot when you switch on the heating
, it is a gradual rise is temp. That rise in temp must be maintained so it can be added to the next day. If your overnight lows fall below 70F and you are too lazy to roll on the solar cover, you will lose three days heating.
I realise this a Heath Robinson type project, no reason it should not help and give you a couple of degrees. A couple of degrees can be the difference between "Yikes" and "Ah" and can prevent having three Adam's Apples.
Additional info.
In the morning the water in the top 4" of water under the slor cover will be noticably warmer. If you just pull off the cover much of that will be "lost".
It needs to be "mixed" by operating the pump on skimmer. While I am building up the temp in Spring I don't usually remove cover until pump has run for one hour. (Pump is on a timer)
As the water heats up it is necc to keep a closer eye on the water quality.
There is a thermo controlled diverter valve so that water is not sent to the panels when the panel temp is below that of the pool.
As with any heating you have to use a solar cover (bubble wrap
) to prevent overnight heat loss.Pools do not suddenly get hot when you switch on the heating
, it is a gradual rise is temp. That rise in temp must be maintained so it can be added to the next day. If your overnight lows fall below 70F and you are too lazy to roll on the solar cover, you will lose three days heating. I realise this a Heath Robinson type project, no reason it should not help and give you a couple of degrees. A couple of degrees can be the difference between "Yikes" and "Ah" and can prevent having three Adam's Apples.
Additional info.
In the morning the water in the top 4" of water under the slor cover will be noticably warmer. If you just pull off the cover much of that will be "lost".
It needs to be "mixed" by operating the pump on skimmer. While I am building up the temp in Spring I don't usually remove cover until pump has run for one hour. (Pump is on a timer)
As the water heats up it is necc to keep a closer eye on the water quality.
I have a basic solar heating system for my in-ground pool.
It is highly effective when the sun is high in the sky. I live in a sub-tropical region and my panels are east facing (on the roof slope not visible from the street).
Installing them allowed me to extend our swim-season by 5 months, so our pool is now comfortable from March until October.
It is too cold to swim in now, despite the air temp being mid 70's at this time of year.
I have 9 4'x10' panels to cope with 22000 gallons. The system also requires a pretty stout pump to get all that water up onto the roof. Mine is 1.5hp, but I also have a vacuum pool vac running via the pump. I also need a motorised control/bypass valve and an electronic thermostat, because it can get uncomfortably warm for swimming in the height of the summer. I installed it all myself - it was very straightforward and kits are readily available on t'internet.
I suspect that you would need a very large radiator surface area to do what you propose in the UK - even then, I don't recall the sun ever being high enough in the sky to produce the intensity to make non-electronic panels viable. Example: I would get burned if I walked barefoot on my roof during the summer.
It is highly effective when the sun is high in the sky. I live in a sub-tropical region and my panels are east facing (on the roof slope not visible from the street).
Installing them allowed me to extend our swim-season by 5 months, so our pool is now comfortable from March until October.
It is too cold to swim in now, despite the air temp being mid 70's at this time of year.
I have 9 4'x10' panels to cope with 22000 gallons. The system also requires a pretty stout pump to get all that water up onto the roof. Mine is 1.5hp, but I also have a vacuum pool vac running via the pump. I also need a motorised control/bypass valve and an electronic thermostat, because it can get uncomfortably warm for swimming in the height of the summer. I installed it all myself - it was very straightforward and kits are readily available on t'internet.
I suspect that you would need a very large radiator surface area to do what you propose in the UK - even then, I don't recall the sun ever being high enough in the sky to produce the intensity to make non-electronic panels viable. Example: I would get burned if I walked barefoot on my roof during the summer.
Is it likely to be hugely efficient- not a chance in hell.
Will it work and be cheap, why not. how much will a second hand radiator and some black paint cost. I want to try something similar but i would put the radiators under some old double glazing units. It won't reach the same efficiency as an evacuated tube system but it will cost 10% of the price so you could have 10 times the area and reach the same heat output
Will it work and be cheap, why not. how much will a second hand radiator and some black paint cost. I want to try something similar but i would put the radiators under some old double glazing units. It won't reach the same efficiency as an evacuated tube system but it will cost 10% of the price so you could have 10 times the area and reach the same heat output
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