Dealing with a builder after bodge job - what to do?
Discussion
I'll try and keep this short (bare with me).
In June last year I started a project to convert a room under a detached garage into usable living space.
The room in questions literally had 4 brick walls (only mud for a floor)and was "under ground level" on 3 sides (Its built on the side of a steep hill).The room obviously needed to be tanked to keep it waterproof and we had a surveyor/architect round who knocked up the appropriate drawings with suggested materials and got the building regs approval.
The builder we choose had a good local reputation and things started relatively well. The builder told us it would be about 8 weeks to complete, so we were looking at end of August. The first 2 weeks were great, a lot of progress was made and we were happy, however soon after this the builder started to go AWOL for weeks at a time.
After a few relatively polite conversations about this the builder was back and had got to the point where they could apply the tanking material (chemical coating). They did the walls and floor, but not the ceiling. I mentioned to the builder at the time that I had seen water drinking off the ceiling before, but he shrugged this off and said it was probably just condensation or something.
The building works dragged on and on and the builder started going missing again so once more I had to have the "polite" conversations again. we both agreed things had dragged on way too long (we were into October at this point) and sure enough the builder redoubled his efforts and was almost finished by mid November. At this point I had paid about 75% of the costs and agreed with the builder that the final payment (about £5.5k) would be paid when the building regs certificate was signed and delivered.
This process started dragging on too as the builder couldn't pull his finger out to get the electrics certificate done, and we also found that the windows they had fitted had the "wrong sort" of glass in. Worse though - the roof started leaking.
I called the builder round and pointed out 4 or 5 leaking spots on the roof, most were water marks but one was bigger and had started to go moldy. The builder said that the water must have been coming in from the level of the garage above and said that he would dig a trench to make sure there was no horizontal ingress of water. I agreed to this plan and the builder said he would be round on Saturday to do this.
On Thursday the builder called and said he wanted more cash "to pay the lads". I refused and said he needed to sort the problems and wait for the building regs certificate as agreed. At this point he went off on one shouting about me "not trusting him". He never turned up on Saturday and didn't return any calls I made - this was about 4 weeks ago now.
Since then one of the walls has also started to leak
So my question is - what to do next? Can I sack the builder and keep the remaining money and find someone else to complete the work? Would the builder have any recourse if I did this? Could they demand their payment? I have given them a month now to correct their problems but they haven't come back to me.
Thanks for reading and any advice you can offer.
In June last year I started a project to convert a room under a detached garage into usable living space.
The room in questions literally had 4 brick walls (only mud for a floor)and was "under ground level" on 3 sides (Its built on the side of a steep hill).The room obviously needed to be tanked to keep it waterproof and we had a surveyor/architect round who knocked up the appropriate drawings with suggested materials and got the building regs approval.
The builder we choose had a good local reputation and things started relatively well. The builder told us it would be about 8 weeks to complete, so we were looking at end of August. The first 2 weeks were great, a lot of progress was made and we were happy, however soon after this the builder started to go AWOL for weeks at a time.
After a few relatively polite conversations about this the builder was back and had got to the point where they could apply the tanking material (chemical coating). They did the walls and floor, but not the ceiling. I mentioned to the builder at the time that I had seen water drinking off the ceiling before, but he shrugged this off and said it was probably just condensation or something.
The building works dragged on and on and the builder started going missing again so once more I had to have the "polite" conversations again. we both agreed things had dragged on way too long (we were into October at this point) and sure enough the builder redoubled his efforts and was almost finished by mid November. At this point I had paid about 75% of the costs and agreed with the builder that the final payment (about £5.5k) would be paid when the building regs certificate was signed and delivered.
This process started dragging on too as the builder couldn't pull his finger out to get the electrics certificate done, and we also found that the windows they had fitted had the "wrong sort" of glass in. Worse though - the roof started leaking.
I called the builder round and pointed out 4 or 5 leaking spots on the roof, most were water marks but one was bigger and had started to go moldy. The builder said that the water must have been coming in from the level of the garage above and said that he would dig a trench to make sure there was no horizontal ingress of water. I agreed to this plan and the builder said he would be round on Saturday to do this.
On Thursday the builder called and said he wanted more cash "to pay the lads". I refused and said he needed to sort the problems and wait for the building regs certificate as agreed. At this point he went off on one shouting about me "not trusting him". He never turned up on Saturday and didn't return any calls I made - this was about 4 weeks ago now.
Since then one of the walls has also started to leak
So my question is - what to do next? Can I sack the builder and keep the remaining money and find someone else to complete the work? Would the builder have any recourse if I did this? Could they demand their payment? I have given them a month now to correct their problems but they haven't come back to me.
Thanks for reading and any advice you can offer.
In short, do not pay the builder another penny.
If he is keen to get the remaining money from you, he has an incentive (if not the desire) to rectify and finish the job.
I suggest you either:
1) Send a letter (recorded delivery) to the builder detailing exactly your concerns (with photographs of the leaks etc). This will be essential if things turn litigious.
2) Get a solicitor to do the above.
Only you can decide how serious the situation has got and whether step 2 is required at this stage, but I've always found that by using a Solicitor (even when it may seem heavy handed) it shows that you are deadly serious and not likely just to let the matter rest.
Also, write down every conversation you have had (when it was, what was agreed etc) - you'll be surprised at how quickly you forget dates etc, and you'll be amazed at how usefult this is.
You need to demonstrate that you have 'played fair' throughout the process, and by writing to him stating what needs done (before any further payments will be made) and giving him a chance to finish the job, you're doing exactly that.
If he is keen to get the remaining money from you, he has an incentive (if not the desire) to rectify and finish the job.
I suggest you either:
1) Send a letter (recorded delivery) to the builder detailing exactly your concerns (with photographs of the leaks etc). This will be essential if things turn litigious.
2) Get a solicitor to do the above.
Only you can decide how serious the situation has got and whether step 2 is required at this stage, but I've always found that by using a Solicitor (even when it may seem heavy handed) it shows that you are deadly serious and not likely just to let the matter rest.
Also, write down every conversation you have had (when it was, what was agreed etc) - you'll be surprised at how quickly you forget dates etc, and you'll be amazed at how usefult this is.
Bandit said:
So my question is - what to do next? Can I sack the builder and keep the remaining money and find someone else to complete the work? Would the builder have any recourse if I did this? Could they demand their payment? I have given them a month now to correct their problems but they haven't come back to me.
Yes you can sack the builder, and yes, the builder may have recourse (depending on a surveyors value placed on the works completed to date, but from what you've said, it is unlikely they will take the builders side) but it would be up to the builder to try to take you to court to obtain the money (and the onus would be on him to prove that he is owed this money.You need to demonstrate that you have 'played fair' throughout the process, and by writing to him stating what needs done (before any further payments will be made) and giving him a chance to finish the job, you're doing exactly that.
Edited by monthefish on Thursday 30th December 14:42
ker in the foundations the dodgy cowboy bmonthefish said:
In short, do not pay the builder another penny.
If he is keen to get the remaining money from you, he has an incentive (if not the desire) to rectify and finish the job.
I suggest you either:
1) Send a letter (recorded delivery) to the builder detailing exactly your concerns (with photographs of the leaks etc). This will be essential if things turn litigious.
2) Get a solicitor to do the above.
Only you can decide how serious the situation has got and whether step 2 is required at this stage, but I've always found that by using a Solicitor (even when it may seem heavy handed) it shows that you are deadly serious and not likely just to let the matter rest.
Also, write down every conversation you have had (when it was, what was agreed etc) - you'll be surprised at how quickly you forget dates etc, and you'll be amazed at how usefult this is.
You need to demonstrate that you have 'played fair' throughout the process, and by writing to him stating what needs done (before any further payments will be made) and giving him a chance to finish the job, you're doing exactly that.
OP:If he is keen to get the remaining money from you, he has an incentive (if not the desire) to rectify and finish the job.
I suggest you either:
1) Send a letter (recorded delivery) to the builder detailing exactly your concerns (with photographs of the leaks etc). This will be essential if things turn litigious.
2) Get a solicitor to do the above.
Only you can decide how serious the situation has got and whether step 2 is required at this stage, but I've always found that by using a Solicitor (even when it may seem heavy handed) it shows that you are deadly serious and not likely just to let the matter rest.
Also, write down every conversation you have had (when it was, what was agreed etc) - you'll be surprised at how quickly you forget dates etc, and you'll be amazed at how usefult this is.
Bandit said:
So my question is - what to do next? Can I sack the builder and keep the remaining money and find someone else to complete the work? Would the builder have any recourse if I did this? Could they demand their payment? I have given them a month now to correct their problems but they haven't come back to me.
Yes you can sack the builder, and yes, the builder may have recourse (depending on a surveyors value placed on the works completed to date, but from what you've said, it is unlikely they will take the builders side) but it would be up to the builder to try to take you to court to obtain the money (and the onus would be on him to prove that he is owed this money.You need to demonstrate that you have 'played fair' throughout the process, and by writing to him stating what needs done (before any further payments will be made) and giving him a chance to finish the job, you're doing exactly that.
Edited by monthefish on Thursday 30th December 14:42
This is superb advice. I was going to respond myself, but I'd be writing exactly the same.
Basically, there is no quick cash in your job, and he knows he might be opening a can of worms which will mean work with no margin. He'll look for work elsewhere.
To go elsewhere now you need to document everything and give him the chance to put things right. As above, include photos, a timeline, and how things have not progressed.
Then give him the chance to complete the job, and come to an agreement with you to do that within the next seven days. Alternatively, I would warn that you would take his failure to complete the work and the failure to properly do the job as a breach of contract and you will be employing someone else to do the work instead.
That will mean he won't be being paid any more, and should it cost more to complete the work or repair shoddy work that you would be asking him for the difference, or threatening action for the same.
There is normally a mechanism for dealing with this sort of thing in the contract.
I am assuming that there is no formal contract and the builder has quoted, you have accepted, and agreed to pay instalments.
I would arrange a meeting with the builder (bring the Architect if he has any clout and the Building Inspector).Explain your concerns and ask the builder how much money he requires to finish the job. Get it in writing.
In the meantime, try to get a quote from another builder to finish the job.
If the Building Inspector has passed the damp proofing he will be keen to find the leak problem, as will the Architect if he specified the tanking method.
It looks as though the builder has overstretched himself and is juggling jobs to keep his cashflow going.
If he is reputable, he won't want to tarnish his reputation but by the sounds of it, he's in trouble.
If you do need to employ another builder, you need to give him written notice to rectify the faults and at the same time tell him how much (if any) you'll be seeking to claim from him. (remember to include for your time and inconvenience).
This situation is all too common and, of course, the builder will try to blame you.
The law is on your side but I would say don't waste too much time and effort on it.Just don't pay him.
I am assuming that there is no formal contract and the builder has quoted, you have accepted, and agreed to pay instalments.
I would arrange a meeting with the builder (bring the Architect if he has any clout and the Building Inspector).Explain your concerns and ask the builder how much money he requires to finish the job. Get it in writing.
In the meantime, try to get a quote from another builder to finish the job.
If the Building Inspector has passed the damp proofing he will be keen to find the leak problem, as will the Architect if he specified the tanking method.
It looks as though the builder has overstretched himself and is juggling jobs to keep his cashflow going.
If he is reputable, he won't want to tarnish his reputation but by the sounds of it, he's in trouble.
If you do need to employ another builder, you need to give him written notice to rectify the faults and at the same time tell him how much (if any) you'll be seeking to claim from him. (remember to include for your time and inconvenience).
This situation is all too common and, of course, the builder will try to blame you.
The law is on your side but I would say don't waste too much time and effort on it.Just don't pay him.
Qcarchoo said:
In the meantime, try to get a quote from another builder to finish the job.
That's probably worth doing, but bear in mind that another builder will often be reluctant to finish a job that another builder has started, especially if there are problems with the works that have been done already, and will likely quote accordingly (i.e. plenty of safety margins in the quote) if they are willing to quote at all.My experience of builders is that the majority of them aren't bad people, the problems seem to come down to the fact that they're not always great at managing projects, and small problems unchecked soon become bigger problems. Also,
You've said this builder has a good local reputation, so I'm guessing he probably fits into this category. If you can resolve the situation, and complete the job with the existing builder, so much the better, but do not let that influence your decisions too much. A very firm hand/strong position is required in this instance.
You are currently retaining £5.5k which is a fairly sizeable sum. I would speak with the Building Inspector to check that he is happy with the work so far and I would consider getting quotes from other builders to finish the job.
Once down I would go back to the original builder in a concilatory tone to try and resolve the issues and get him to complete the work. If necessary agree to release some more money on a hourly or daily rate basis. It would appear he has cashflow problems at the moment, so if you agree to pay him at the end of the day that will help him.
I would have thought that in theory the roof wouldnt need tanking as ther garage is above, and the water would come in down the stairs anyway! What is possibly needed is to dig a drainage channel around the garage to stop the water coming in horizontally. Dont know about the wall leak though!
Once down I would go back to the original builder in a concilatory tone to try and resolve the issues and get him to complete the work. If necessary agree to release some more money on a hourly or daily rate basis. It would appear he has cashflow problems at the moment, so if you agree to pay him at the end of the day that will help him.
I would have thought that in theory the roof wouldnt need tanking as ther garage is above, and the water would come in down the stairs anyway! What is possibly needed is to dig a drainage channel around the garage to stop the water coming in horizontally. Dont know about the wall leak though!
Sounds like your man has painted a waterproofing layer on the inside of the structure? This may not work - water pressure from behind will just blow it off the walls. That's why the wall is leaking. Two ways to do it successfully..
Apply bituthene or waterproofing coating on the outside of the walls, so water table pressure is pressing the coating against the wall rather than away from it, but this means digging around the whole structure and backfilling, plus you can't effectively tie in the new external wall coating to any existing floor membrane.
Or alternatively, allow water into the structure using an internal membrane system a bit like huge bubblewrap - the water gets into the gap between the walls/floor and membrane, and then runs away to drain or a sump and pump. Delta make membranes that'd do it. You could retrofit this system and probably be ok.
How you'd waterproof the 'roof' I don't know - is that the garage 'floor' as well?
I'd be questioning the architect and BCO as to whether the coating used will really work with your water table, and if it is supposed to work, how the floor/wall coat is supposed to link to the roof. A1 workmanship is essential in tanking - lack of attention to detail will mean leaks.
Oh, and don't pay the builder either, until you know who's at fault.
Apply bituthene or waterproofing coating on the outside of the walls, so water table pressure is pressing the coating against the wall rather than away from it, but this means digging around the whole structure and backfilling, plus you can't effectively tie in the new external wall coating to any existing floor membrane.
Or alternatively, allow water into the structure using an internal membrane system a bit like huge bubblewrap - the water gets into the gap between the walls/floor and membrane, and then runs away to drain or a sump and pump. Delta make membranes that'd do it. You could retrofit this system and probably be ok.
How you'd waterproof the 'roof' I don't know - is that the garage 'floor' as well?
I'd be questioning the architect and BCO as to whether the coating used will really work with your water table, and if it is supposed to work, how the floor/wall coat is supposed to link to the roof. A1 workmanship is essential in tanking - lack of attention to detail will mean leaks.
Oh, and don't pay the builder either, until you know who's at fault.
JustinP1 said:
monthefish said:
In short, do not pay the builder another penny.
If he is keen to get the remaining money from you, he has an incentive (if not the desire) to rectify and finish the job.
I suggest you either:
1) Send a letter (recorded delivery) to the builder detailing exactly your concerns (with photographs of the leaks etc). This will be essential if things turn litigious.
2) Get a solicitor to do the above.
Only you can decide how serious the situation has got and whether step 2 is required at this stage, but I've always found that by using a Solicitor (even when it may seem heavy handed) it shows that you are deadly serious and not likely just to let the matter rest.
Also, write down every conversation you have had (when it was, what was agreed etc) - you'll be surprised at how quickly you forget dates etc, and you'll be amazed at how usefult this is.
You need to demonstrate that you have 'played fair' throughout the process, and by writing to him stating what needs done (before any further payments will be made) and giving him a chance to finish the job, you're doing exactly that.
OP:If he is keen to get the remaining money from you, he has an incentive (if not the desire) to rectify and finish the job.
I suggest you either:
1) Send a letter (recorded delivery) to the builder detailing exactly your concerns (with photographs of the leaks etc). This will be essential if things turn litigious.
2) Get a solicitor to do the above.
Only you can decide how serious the situation has got and whether step 2 is required at this stage, but I've always found that by using a Solicitor (even when it may seem heavy handed) it shows that you are deadly serious and not likely just to let the matter rest.
Also, write down every conversation you have had (when it was, what was agreed etc) - you'll be surprised at how quickly you forget dates etc, and you'll be amazed at how usefult this is.
Bandit said:
So my question is - what to do next? Can I sack the builder and keep the remaining money and find someone else to complete the work? Would the builder have any recourse if I did this? Could they demand their payment? I have given them a month now to correct their problems but they haven't come back to me.
Yes you can sack the builder, and yes, the builder may have recourse (depending on a surveyors value placed on the works completed to date, but from what you've said, it is unlikely they will take the builders side) but it would be up to the builder to try to take you to court to obtain the money (and the onus would be on him to prove that he is owed this money.You need to demonstrate that you have 'played fair' throughout the process, and by writing to him stating what needs done (before any further payments will be made) and giving him a chance to finish the job, you're doing exactly that.
Edited by monthefish on Thursday 30th December 14:42
This is superb advice. I was going to respond myself, but I'd be writing exactly the same.
Basically, there is no quick cash in your job, and he knows he might be opening a can of worms which will mean work with no margin. He'll look for work elsewhere.
To go elsewhere now you need to document everything and give him the chance to put things right. As above, include photos, a timeline, and how things have not progressed.
Then give him the chance to complete the job, and come to an agreement with you to do that within the next seven days. Alternatively, I would warn that you would take his failure to complete the work and the failure to properly do the job as a breach of contract and you will be employing someone else to do the work instead.
That will mean he won't be being paid any more, and should it cost more to complete the work or repair shoddy work that you would be asking him for the difference, or threatening action for the same.
Stephen Bennett said:
Hello Bandit
My name is Stephen Bennett and I am working on a BBC1 series called Cowboy Trap. I saw your posting. Don't know if you are still affected by the cowboy who was doing your converted garage build in Dec 2010? Would you be interested in being in our series at all? And could you give me a call pls.
Cheers
Stephen
Hi Stephen,My name is Stephen Bennett and I am working on a BBC1 series called Cowboy Trap. I saw your posting. Don't know if you are still affected by the cowboy who was doing your converted garage build in Dec 2010? Would you be interested in being in our series at all? And could you give me a call pls.
Cheers
Stephen
Am very tempted.... but after much additional hassle I did get the builder to come back and correct faults and (nearly) finish job.
I say nearly, because although he again *promised* to be back in the morning to top up a ditch they'd made to fix the ceiling leak... they of course never came back. To be honest it was just a relief I'd never have to see them again !
So this was a job that was supposed to take 8 weeks which turned into an 8 months.
The builder was a smarmy git who strung us along with a constant set of promises and timescales that never materialized.
But after much stress and pain, I do have what I asked for, and the roof /walls no longer leak.
Best regards
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