Home purchase issue - need advice
Discussion
Hopefully this is in the right section, mods, please move as appropriate if it isn't.
Without going into the nitty gritty, am buying a house and we're heading towards exchange. The house is detached and in front has a large driveway and detached double garage. My solicitor has done the necessary searches and has unearthed a significant issue.
The land that the driveway and garage occupies are NOT on the title deeds.
The owner has lived there since 1984, and they were unaware of this until now. The solicitor believes that either the present owner, or the previous owner purchased additional land and that someone made a cock-up at the Land Registry.
The question I have is, has anyone had this situation before, and how long / painful was it to sort out? My solicitor won't give me any timelines or guidance as it's a situation completely out of their control and I understand this.
I'm trying to be pragmatic and I'd rather have no-hope than false hope, so I'd like to know as soon as possible what kind of time this takes to get resolved, are we talking weeks or months? If months, I have a genuine issue as it'll impact my buyer who is buyng my property as a starter home ready for married life and their wedding is in June, the idea is to buy my house, renovate as needed and then it's all focus on wedding prep.
Has anyone been in this sitaution and how did it pan out?
Without going into the nitty gritty, am buying a house and we're heading towards exchange. The house is detached and in front has a large driveway and detached double garage. My solicitor has done the necessary searches and has unearthed a significant issue.
The land that the driveway and garage occupies are NOT on the title deeds.
The owner has lived there since 1984, and they were unaware of this until now. The solicitor believes that either the present owner, or the previous owner purchased additional land and that someone made a cock-up at the Land Registry.
The question I have is, has anyone had this situation before, and how long / painful was it to sort out? My solicitor won't give me any timelines or guidance as it's a situation completely out of their control and I understand this.
I'm trying to be pragmatic and I'd rather have no-hope than false hope, so I'd like to know as soon as possible what kind of time this takes to get resolved, are we talking weeks or months? If months, I have a genuine issue as it'll impact my buyer who is buyng my property as a starter home ready for married life and their wedding is in June, the idea is to buy my house, renovate as needed and then it's all focus on wedding prep.
Has anyone been in this sitaution and how did it pan out?
We moved in December and the buyer of our house had found an issue with the road.
Their solicitor informed the lenders and that's where the issue stuck.
In the end it was the lenders who called the shots and in-order for completion to take place we had to place a few thousand pounds into a bond.
The bond is held between our and their solicitor until the issue is resolved. Should there be an issue the new owner has the right to use those funds for legal costs. We also took out legal cover at the same time.
When the 'issue' is resolved the bond will be returned to us (hopefully)
At the end of the day we were at the mercy of the buyers lender.... To continue our hand was forced
Their solicitor informed the lenders and that's where the issue stuck.
In the end it was the lenders who called the shots and in-order for completion to take place we had to place a few thousand pounds into a bond.
The bond is held between our and their solicitor until the issue is resolved. Should there be an issue the new owner has the right to use those funds for legal costs. We also took out legal cover at the same time.
When the 'issue' is resolved the bond will be returned to us (hopefully)
At the end of the day we were at the mercy of the buyers lender.... To continue our hand was forced
ianreeves said:
We moved in December and the buyer of our house had found an issue with the road.
Their solicitor informed the lenders and that's where the issue stuck.
In the end it was the lenders who called the shots and in-order for completion to take place we had to place a few thousand pounds into a bond.
The bond is held between our and their solicitor until the issue is resolved. Should there be an issue the new owner has the right to use those funds for legal costs. We also took out legal cover at the same time.
When the 'issue' is resolved the bond will be returned to us (hopefully)
At the end of the day we were at the mercy of the buyers lender.... To continue our hand was forced
Doesn't sound like fun times ahead. Didn't even think about the imapact this would have with the lender! Another dimension to think about. Their solicitor informed the lenders and that's where the issue stuck.
In the end it was the lenders who called the shots and in-order for completion to take place we had to place a few thousand pounds into a bond.
The bond is held between our and their solicitor until the issue is resolved. Should there be an issue the new owner has the right to use those funds for legal costs. We also took out legal cover at the same time.
When the 'issue' is resolved the bond will be returned to us (hopefully)
At the end of the day we were at the mercy of the buyers lender.... To continue our hand was forced
Similar to my last purchase I guess. We bought a house where a double garage had been built but approx. half the garage was outside the boundary for the house and the garage wasn't on the title deeds.
We offered in August 2006 and finally bought it in December 2007. Part of the time was taken up by the fact that the sellers neglected to mention this and it wasn't till I started looking at the boundary and thinking that something wasn't quite right that we noticed (solicitor had said it wasn't a problem for the garage not being on the deeds and it happens regulary - not sure if that was porkies though). The seller then tried to claim adverse possession but, as it wasn't 12? years since he built the garage, the application failed. They then tried to get indemnity insurance but for some reason (to do with the adverse possession application I think) he couldn't get insurance. He finally decided to self indemnify against any future losses I might incur.
I recently sold it and because I was just short of the adverse possession time we didn't even try and apply and went straight to the indemnity insurance option. By the time it took for all the legals to agree on insurance the mortgage offer for my buyer had expired so we had to wait for them to sort things out again.
Total time to sell: Offer accepted Dec 2009, Completed August 2010.
If I come accross the same situation again I will run away and find somewhere else to live.
ETA: It shouldn't be a big deal to find out who owns the land in question. You can probably find out yourself through the land registry. The land my garage was built on was owned by the original developer when the converted the property but he had dissolved the business in the 70's so couldn't even try and get him to transfer it or sell it.
We offered in August 2006 and finally bought it in December 2007. Part of the time was taken up by the fact that the sellers neglected to mention this and it wasn't till I started looking at the boundary and thinking that something wasn't quite right that we noticed (solicitor had said it wasn't a problem for the garage not being on the deeds and it happens regulary - not sure if that was porkies though). The seller then tried to claim adverse possession but, as it wasn't 12? years since he built the garage, the application failed. They then tried to get indemnity insurance but for some reason (to do with the adverse possession application I think) he couldn't get insurance. He finally decided to self indemnify against any future losses I might incur.
I recently sold it and because I was just short of the adverse possession time we didn't even try and apply and went straight to the indemnity insurance option. By the time it took for all the legals to agree on insurance the mortgage offer for my buyer had expired so we had to wait for them to sort things out again.
Total time to sell: Offer accepted Dec 2009, Completed August 2010.
If I come accross the same situation again I will run away and find somewhere else to live.
ETA: It shouldn't be a big deal to find out who owns the land in question. You can probably find out yourself through the land registry. The land my garage was built on was owned by the original developer when the converted the property but he had dissolved the business in the 70's so couldn't even try and get him to transfer it or sell it.
Edited by speed8 on Friday 4th February 16:52
Speed 8, that's really interesting, thank you. And it's the type of insight I need, in terms of future sell-ability.
I've just got off phone to my solicitor with an update.
My seller bought the house in 1984, he dug out the deeds HE had and apparently it shows that the drive and garage DID form part of the original sale. He has shown this to his solicitor, who in turn have informed LR.
LR have rejected his copy because it's a photocopy, not an original document. So OFFICIALLY, the land is unregistered. As the buyer has been there a number of years, they are allowed to apply for POSSESSORY title. The house and back garden are Title Absolute, Possesory is apparently a step down from this, it means you can build on the land, you can sell the land, but you don't outright own it. However, anyone that wants to stake a claim, has to do so by the Chief Land Registrar who serves notice etc.
Once possessory title is in place, it has to be uncontested for 12 years before it can be upgrade to Absolute. Also, I, nor the seller, can put indemnity in place as possessory title has to be in place for 12 months before indemnity can be issued.
I'm now at a crossroads. I've waited 4 years to find a property and this fits EVERYTHING the family ever wanted and is on the road we've always wanted. Is my fear an irrational one or is this a genuine concern to have?
My solicitor is only giving me the worse case scenario, which is her way of arse covering I guess, but if anyone has real-world experience would be so appreciated
I've just got off phone to my solicitor with an update.
My seller bought the house in 1984, he dug out the deeds HE had and apparently it shows that the drive and garage DID form part of the original sale. He has shown this to his solicitor, who in turn have informed LR.
LR have rejected his copy because it's a photocopy, not an original document. So OFFICIALLY, the land is unregistered. As the buyer has been there a number of years, they are allowed to apply for POSSESSORY title. The house and back garden are Title Absolute, Possesory is apparently a step down from this, it means you can build on the land, you can sell the land, but you don't outright own it. However, anyone that wants to stake a claim, has to do so by the Chief Land Registrar who serves notice etc.
Once possessory title is in place, it has to be uncontested for 12 years before it can be upgrade to Absolute. Also, I, nor the seller, can put indemnity in place as possessory title has to be in place for 12 months before indemnity can be issued.
I'm now at a crossroads. I've waited 4 years to find a property and this fits EVERYTHING the family ever wanted and is on the road we've always wanted. Is my fear an irrational one or is this a genuine concern to have?
My solicitor is only giving me the worse case scenario, which is her way of arse covering I guess, but if anyone has real-world experience would be so appreciated
Fas1975 said:
Speed 8, that's really interesting, thank you. And it's the type of insight I need, in terms of future sell-ability.
I've just got off phone to my solicitor with an update.
My seller bought the house in 1984, he dug out the deeds HE had and apparently it shows that the drive and garage DID form part of the original sale. He has shown this to his solicitor, who in turn have informed LR.
LR have rejected his copy because it's a photocopy, not an original document. So OFFICIALLY, the land is unregistered. As the buyer has been there a number of years, they are allowed to apply for POSSESSORY title. The house and back garden are Title Absolute, Possesory is apparently a step down from this, it means you can build on the land, you can sell the land, but you don't outright own it. However, anyone that wants to stake a claim, has to do so by the Chief Land Registrar who serves notice etc.
Once possessory title is in place, it has to be uncontested for 12 years before it can be upgrade to Absolute. Also, I, nor the seller, can put indemnity in place as possessory title has to be in place for 12 months before indemnity can be issued.
I'm now at a crossroads. I've waited 4 years to find a property and this fits EVERYTHING the family ever wanted and is on the road we've always wanted. Is my fear an irrational one or is this a genuine concern to have?
My solicitor is only giving me the worse case scenario, which is her way of arse covering I guess, but if anyone has real-world experience would be so appreciated
Tell her to stop looking at her 'On Cover' self issue pack and to approach Countrywide, First Title and Aviva for a bespoke policy fronting up all the information and with the copy docs. if she hasn't done so yet. IIRC I got a policy from Countrywide last year on a similar basis.I've just got off phone to my solicitor with an update.
My seller bought the house in 1984, he dug out the deeds HE had and apparently it shows that the drive and garage DID form part of the original sale. He has shown this to his solicitor, who in turn have informed LR.
LR have rejected his copy because it's a photocopy, not an original document. So OFFICIALLY, the land is unregistered. As the buyer has been there a number of years, they are allowed to apply for POSSESSORY title. The house and back garden are Title Absolute, Possesory is apparently a step down from this, it means you can build on the land, you can sell the land, but you don't outright own it. However, anyone that wants to stake a claim, has to do so by the Chief Land Registrar who serves notice etc.
Once possessory title is in place, it has to be uncontested for 12 years before it can be upgrade to Absolute. Also, I, nor the seller, can put indemnity in place as possessory title has to be in place for 12 months before indemnity can be issued.
I'm now at a crossroads. I've waited 4 years to find a property and this fits EVERYTHING the family ever wanted and is on the road we've always wanted. Is my fear an irrational one or is this a genuine concern to have?
My solicitor is only giving me the worse case scenario, which is her way of arse covering I guess, but if anyone has real-world experience would be so appreciated
Might be wrong as I'm not a solicitor etc... but if he has a photocopy then surely his mortgage company/solicitor/bank has his original deeds that the photocopy came from which will show the drive and garage. Problem solved?
Otherwise you are looking at a couple of months at least, I would imagine, from the time that the possessory application goes in until you get a decision (they have to come out and inspect it). If you go down the application route then make sure he submits it with lots of evidence, i.e. pictures, which show that he has used the land as his own for the required period. Also, if it's a shared drive, where other parties have right of access, then I doubt they would give possessory for the drive. That's partly where our seller fell down and delayed things as he applied for everything rather than just the garage land. It was a drive with right of access to the other properties and one of the rejection reasons was that the drive was used by the other residents as it was the only route in/out and they would never sign it over in case I blocked it for some reason.
I would imagine you can still get it done by June but all parties would need to be on top of it...
Otherwise you are looking at a couple of months at least, I would imagine, from the time that the possessory application goes in until you get a decision (they have to come out and inspect it). If you go down the application route then make sure he submits it with lots of evidence, i.e. pictures, which show that he has used the land as his own for the required period. Also, if it's a shared drive, where other parties have right of access, then I doubt they would give possessory for the drive. That's partly where our seller fell down and delayed things as he applied for everything rather than just the garage land. It was a drive with right of access to the other properties and one of the rejection reasons was that the drive was used by the other residents as it was the only route in/out and they would never sign it over in case I blocked it for some reason.
I would imagine you can still get it done by June but all parties would need to be on top of it...
Rude-boy said:
Tell her to stop looking at her 'On Cover' self issue pack and to approach Countrywide, First Title and Aviva for a bespoke policy fronting up all the information and with the copy docs. if she hasn't done so yet. IIRC I got a policy from Countrywide last year on a similar basis.
She's shut up shop for the weekend, will let her know on Monday. Thank you for the infospeed8 said:
Might be wrong as I'm not a solicitor etc... but if he has a photocopy then surely his mortgage company/solicitor/bank has his original deeds that the photocopy came from which will show the drive and garage. Problem solved?
Otherwise you are looking at a couple of months at least, I would imagine, from the time that the possessory application goes in until you get a decision (they have to come out and inspect it). If you go down the application route then make sure he submits it with lots of evidence, i.e. pictures, which show that he has used the land as his own for the required period. Also, if it's a shared drive, where other parties have right of access, then I doubt they would give possessory for the drive. That's partly where our seller fell down and delayed things as he applied for everything rather than just the garage land. It was a drive with right of access to the other properties and one of the rejection reasons was that the drive was used by the other residents as it was the only route in/out and they would never sign it over in case I blocked it for some reason.
I would imagine you can still get it done by June but all parties would need to be on top of it...
Apparently the seller is just as shocked as I am. It's one of those things, he bought the house in 1984, based on the info he was given, and it's something you never think about again until times like now when it comes to selling.Otherwise you are looking at a couple of months at least, I would imagine, from the time that the possessory application goes in until you get a decision (they have to come out and inspect it). If you go down the application route then make sure he submits it with lots of evidence, i.e. pictures, which show that he has used the land as his own for the required period. Also, if it's a shared drive, where other parties have right of access, then I doubt they would give possessory for the drive. That's partly where our seller fell down and delayed things as he applied for everything rather than just the garage land. It was a drive with right of access to the other properties and one of the rejection reasons was that the drive was used by the other residents as it was the only route in/out and they would never sign it over in case I blocked it for some reason.
I would imagine you can still get it done by June but all parties would need to be on top of it...
The house is mortgage free, I have no idea where the title deeds are, however, I've just been on phone to the sellers agent and apparently the seller has dropped a big box file full of documents to the solicitor which will be reviewed to see if there's anything that can support the copy of the plans he has. Failing that, it's going for the Posessor Title.
I'm proceeding with my sale and will either move in with my parents or rent for a few months until this gets resolved or I find another property, so that's not an issue.
I'm obviously emotionally attached to this process so thanks for the input so far guys, genuinely.
Had with with a house we sold. Basically the land our garage was on wasn't on the registry and was a historical anomaly. It didn't have any owner as such. Anyway. There are tried and tested methods of dealing with it including laying claim to the land and having the seller pay for insurance against anyone coming forward to claim it which is very unlikely anyway.
I think the best advice is to make sure your solicitor is a sensible one and not prone to sucking through his teeth in a builder-type 'this is going to be expensive' way. Bring me solutions not problems etc.
I think the best advice is to make sure your solicitor is a sensible one and not prone to sucking through his teeth in a builder-type 'this is going to be expensive' way. Bring me solutions not problems etc.
Olf said:
Had with with a house we sold. Basically the land our garage was on wasn't on the registry and was a historical anomaly. It didn't have any owner as such. Anyway. There are tried and tested methods of dealing with it including laying claim to the land and having the seller pay for insurance against anyone coming forward to claim it which is very unlikely anyway.
I think the best advice is to make sure your solicitor is a sensible one and not prone to sucking through his teeth in a builder-type 'this is going to be expensive' way. Bring me solutions not problems etc.
LOL, it's always the garage huh!!!I think the best advice is to make sure your solicitor is a sensible one and not prone to sucking through his teeth in a builder-type 'this is going to be expensive' way. Bring me solutions not problems etc.
Just been doing research, registering land didn't become law until 1989, so there's lots of pockets of land unregistered which only get resolved during the sales process.
My solicitor is very good, as this came up today, she's been on phone to me with all the info and facts so at least I'm in possession of what's going on, now need seller's solicitor to earn his money and fix this.
IF my solicitor tells me they're happy for me to proceed, I will, if there's any doubt or shades of grey then I'll walk away and rent. I've waited 4 years for a perfect house, so will be patient for a while longer.
Not sure if this helps, but it does concern LR and their cockups.
When my solicitor started doing the paperwork for my house it appeared that the freehold had been "sold" twice and the seller wasn't the second..
It turned out that the seller bought the freehold for the property years back, at some point after that all remaining freeholds in the road (its a cul de sac) were sold by management company A to management company B. When this happened mistakenly the land registry transferred the freehold for my house with the rest, which they obviously shouldn't have done.
Once figured out the land registry wrote to management company B, from what I can gather the letter said "this is registered to you, but its not yours, you never bought it, do you agree to release it?" They had a month to put in a dispute, after that it would get transferred back to my seller (the rightful owner) so it could then come to me. As you might expect company B didn't bother to reply so I had to wait the full month.
If there was some sort of transfer and its gone wrong maybe a similar procedure would be followed ?
It would be interesting to know if the land registry have that land belonging to the neighbour on that side.
When my solicitor started doing the paperwork for my house it appeared that the freehold had been "sold" twice and the seller wasn't the second..
It turned out that the seller bought the freehold for the property years back, at some point after that all remaining freeholds in the road (its a cul de sac) were sold by management company A to management company B. When this happened mistakenly the land registry transferred the freehold for my house with the rest, which they obviously shouldn't have done.
Once figured out the land registry wrote to management company B, from what I can gather the letter said "this is registered to you, but its not yours, you never bought it, do you agree to release it?" They had a month to put in a dispute, after that it would get transferred back to my seller (the rightful owner) so it could then come to me. As you might expect company B didn't bother to reply so I had to wait the full month.
If there was some sort of transfer and its gone wrong maybe a similar procedure would be followed ?
It would be interesting to know if the land registry have that land belonging to the neighbour on that side.
I would suspect that the land is unregistered - your solicitor would be able to confirm this.
In this situation, I would be surprised if there were no specialist insurers willing to insure.
My understanding is it's normally a choice of applying for tittle, or insurance and one will preclude the other (especially if knocked back on title).
In this situation, I would be surprised if there were no specialist insurers willing to insure.
My understanding is it's normally a choice of applying for tittle, or insurance and one will preclude the other (especially if knocked back on title).
Thanks guys for the continued input
@djpowell, the land is unregistered, it's not attached to any neighbours and it's not "in dispute".
My cousin is also my mortgage broker, he's using his contacts to look into indemnity. There's a chink of light at the end of the tunnel too.
My cousin's best friend is a barrister, his barrister mate called a property specialist and the property guy said that it might be possible for the seller to sign an affidavit that he has lived at the property for over 12 years. This MIGHT expedite LR to bypass Possessor Title and go straight to Title Absolute. It may be far fetched, but I will raise it on Monday.
the positive is that the land is unregistered, not under contention and the chances are low that someone will come out of the woodwork claiming it. If the affidavit approach doesn't work, then some kind of indemnity policy should be good enough.
Been thinking though, should this affect the value of the property? I.e. do I have room for manouvre? The property is £800k, should I renegotiate or just accept and work with what I have?
@djpowell, the land is unregistered, it's not attached to any neighbours and it's not "in dispute".
My cousin is also my mortgage broker, he's using his contacts to look into indemnity. There's a chink of light at the end of the tunnel too.
My cousin's best friend is a barrister, his barrister mate called a property specialist and the property guy said that it might be possible for the seller to sign an affidavit that he has lived at the property for over 12 years. This MIGHT expedite LR to bypass Possessor Title and go straight to Title Absolute. It may be far fetched, but I will raise it on Monday.
the positive is that the land is unregistered, not under contention and the chances are low that someone will come out of the woodwork claiming it. If the affidavit approach doesn't work, then some kind of indemnity policy should be good enough.
Been thinking though, should this affect the value of the property? I.e. do I have room for manouvre? The property is £800k, should I renegotiate or just accept and work with what I have?
Fas1975 said:
Been thinking though, should this affect the value of the property? I.e. do I have room for manouvre? The property is £800k, should I renegotiate or just accept and work with what I have?
If the vendor puts in place the indemnity / insurance then I wouldn't think you have much mileage to renegotiate. You might, however, be able to ask for a contribution towards your additional costs - solicitor etc. - arising as a result of this.tokyo_mb said:
If the vendor puts in place the indemnity / insurance then I wouldn't think you have much mileage to renegotiate. You might, however, be able to ask for a contribution towards your additional costs - solicitor etc. - arising as a result of this.
That's excellent advice, will take that on board.
Little bit of an update:
Estate agents and solicitors, don't you love 'em! I asked for a meeting with the homeowner this weekend as I wanted a sit-down and discuss options and resolution path. Bearing in mind, the solicitor and the selling agent painted a picture that the entire drive and garage were marked as un-registered, when speaking with the homeowner and viewing the documentation first hand, including the copies of titles from both him and the LR, turns out it's a foot wide strip at the edge of the driveway, the garage is not in question at all, it's literally a kink of a foot long strip along part of the driveway.
Little more comfortable now. The seller has agreed to pursue correction by the LR which will take time as they will have to come out and investigate. The property is in Burnham, Bucks, but the LR office dealing with is in Leicester so I can see this dragging. Also, the seller has agreed to pay for any indemnity policy so fingers crossed, within the next couple of weeks, we'll be back on track.
Thanks for your insight so far guys, genuinely appreciate it. Will keep you posted
Estate agents and solicitors, don't you love 'em! I asked for a meeting with the homeowner this weekend as I wanted a sit-down and discuss options and resolution path. Bearing in mind, the solicitor and the selling agent painted a picture that the entire drive and garage were marked as un-registered, when speaking with the homeowner and viewing the documentation first hand, including the copies of titles from both him and the LR, turns out it's a foot wide strip at the edge of the driveway, the garage is not in question at all, it's literally a kink of a foot long strip along part of the driveway.
Little more comfortable now. The seller has agreed to pursue correction by the LR which will take time as they will have to come out and investigate. The property is in Burnham, Bucks, but the LR office dealing with is in Leicester so I can see this dragging. Also, the seller has agreed to pay for any indemnity policy so fingers crossed, within the next couple of weeks, we'll be back on track.
Thanks for your insight so far guys, genuinely appreciate it. Will keep you posted
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