Boundary fence & planning permission
Discussion
Our rear garden, has a side boundary with a main road/footpath. The garden is lower than the road by a couple of metres.
Part of this boundary is an old bridge structure which has a wall height on the road side of about 1mtr.
The builder, from new erected a fence on the garden side of the bridge structure to a height of about 900mm above the wall height and about 8mtrs long, this was in the early eighties.
Over the years ivy had covered the fence, until a couple of weeks ago when the fence blew down.
As the old fence was over 20years old plus over grown with ivy tightly woven round the posts and boards it was easier to put a new fence back up, as per original sizes.
Less than a week after finishing the fence, I have the planning police on my back saying planning permission is required as it is a new fence. Apparently if I had just put the old fence back up it would have been ok.
So how is the best way to proceed with this, before parting with my £150 application fee, as I was also told that planning permission is not guaranteed.
I am going to check with my immediate neighbours and make sure they are ok with the fence- I don’t think they are a problem, as the fence also improves their security and privacy.
Any help most appreciated.
Part of this boundary is an old bridge structure which has a wall height on the road side of about 1mtr.
The builder, from new erected a fence on the garden side of the bridge structure to a height of about 900mm above the wall height and about 8mtrs long, this was in the early eighties.
Over the years ivy had covered the fence, until a couple of weeks ago when the fence blew down.
As the old fence was over 20years old plus over grown with ivy tightly woven round the posts and boards it was easier to put a new fence back up, as per original sizes.
Less than a week after finishing the fence, I have the planning police on my back saying planning permission is required as it is a new fence. Apparently if I had just put the old fence back up it would have been ok.
So how is the best way to proceed with this, before parting with my £150 application fee, as I was also told that planning permission is not guaranteed.
I am going to check with my immediate neighbours and make sure they are ok with the fence- I don’t think they are a problem, as the fence also improves their security and privacy.
Any help most appreciated.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/418/schedu...
"PART 2 MINOR OPERATIONS
Class A
Permitted development
A. The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.
Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a)the height of any gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic would, after the carrying out of the development, exceed one metre above ground level;
(b)the height of any other gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed would exceed two metres above ground level;
(c)the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or
(d)it would involve development within the curtilage of, or to a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure surrounding, a listed building."
There seems to be some discussion/differences between Councils as to whether "maintained, improved or altered" allows like for like replacement. You could try arguing with them but if your new fence is different in any slight way, design, materials etc., then they have probably got the advantage.
Edit: If you are in NE as in Scotland, ignore me, I don't have a clue what applies there.
"PART 2 MINOR OPERATIONS
Class A
Permitted development
A. The erection, construction, maintenance, improvement or alteration of a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure.
Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if—
(a)the height of any gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed adjacent to a highway used by vehicular traffic would, after the carrying out of the development, exceed one metre above ground level;
(b)the height of any other gate, fence, wall or means of enclosure erected or constructed would exceed two metres above ground level;
(c)the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or
(d)it would involve development within the curtilage of, or to a gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure surrounding, a listed building."
There seems to be some discussion/differences between Councils as to whether "maintained, improved or altered" allows like for like replacement. You could try arguing with them but if your new fence is different in any slight way, design, materials etc., then they have probably got the advantage.
Edit: If you are in NE as in Scotland, ignore me, I don't have a clue what applies there.
Edited by Mr GrimNasty on Monday 18th April 10:22
Mr GrimNasty said:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1995/418/schedu...
(c)the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or
There seems to be some discussion/differences between Councils as to whether "maintained, improved or altered" allows like for like replacement. You could try arguing with them but if your new fence is different in any slight way, design, materials etc., then they have probably got the advantage.
Edit: If you are in NE as in Scotland, ignore me, I don't have a clue what applies there.
[/footnote]
Thanks, looks as though I could have a problem with these people, its unlikely I can provide details of the original fence, although we are now looking through old photos when we first moved into the property. (c)the height of any gate, fence, wall or other means of enclosure maintained, improved or altered would, as a result of the development, exceed its former height or the height referred to in sub-paragraph (a) or (b) as the height appropriate to it if erected or constructed, whichever is the greater; or
There seems to be some discussion/differences between Councils as to whether "maintained, improved or altered" allows like for like replacement. You could try arguing with them but if your new fence is different in any slight way, design, materials etc., then they have probably got the advantage.
Edit: If you are in NE as in Scotland, ignore me, I don't have a clue what applies there.
[/footnote]
I did "improve" on the original fence design by adding two extra posts 5 instead of 3 to give more durability, but other than that the timber sizes etc from the old fence wherever possible were used to order timber for the new fence.
At the moment just had a "friendly" knock on the door and a phone discussion with someone in building regulations who was helping planning out, and a don't shoot the messenger response. But I expect something in the post will arrive in the next few days.
Our neighbour recently had a problem with a fence, and applied for permission for a 4ft high fence with trellis on top. Permission was refused but he was told he could have a fence as long as it was no higher than 1 metre. So he put up a fence that because of the gravel boards at the bottom was just over a metre with a trellis on top (as the fencer said trellis didn't count).
Was then served with an enforcement notice to remove the trellis and reduce the fence to 1 metre. Appealled and the Inspector agreed with the Council and he has now had to remove the trellis and cut 200mm of the fence!
The reality is that someone must of complained as the Council are not going to be out looking for new fences, so speak to an officer and see what they say. Then try speaking to you local councillor to see if they will support your application.
Was then served with an enforcement notice to remove the trellis and reduce the fence to 1 metre. Appealled and the Inspector agreed with the Council and he has now had to remove the trellis and cut 200mm of the fence!
The reality is that someone must of complained as the Council are not going to be out looking for new fences, so speak to an officer and see what they say. Then try speaking to you local councillor to see if they will support your application.
Get a couple of established local people to write statements attesting that there was a fence of the same dimensions, materials and design there. Try Google Street View and Google Maps for images that prove the thing existed. The Council may also have access to various historic aerial images (ours tend to be updated every 4 or 5 years). If built development has been in place for more than four years regardless of the necessity for PP, it becomes immune from enforcement and there is a process whereby you can apply for a certificate of lawfulness that has to be assessed on available evidence of the facts. If the Council have no records, then your statutory declaration is enough to prove it (don't lie 'though, that's serious).
Next to a highway, the general rule is 1m high is ok, away from a highway it's 2m. Has to be a means of enclosure.
Next to a highway, the general rule is 1m high is ok, away from a highway it's 2m. Has to be a means of enclosure.
Thanks for the helpful comments, fortuantly one of our neighbours has been in their property since new so hopefully they can assist with any staetment regarding the fence being in place etc. I have also found some old photographs, that show some of the fence but not in full detail, as constructed originally by the builder when the property was built in the late eighties. Google maps & street view just show the area covered by the ivy.
Understand there is a "letter" in the post and the matter is now subject to me making a planning application.
Understand there is a "letter" in the post and the matter is now subject to me making a planning application.
Pupp said:
Ask them to explain why you need to apply for PP to replace, like for like, development that was in place and immune from enforcement....
Already asked about this and aprt the immune from enforcement part, which I was not aware off. I was told because it was a "new" constructed fence and higher than 1 mtr, from the pavement it required planning permission. If I had simply put the old broken fence back they say it would not have been a problem.The legal advisers to planning departments seem to be of the mind that "maintained, improved or altered" does not include like for like total replacement, and I tend to agree. A lot of this planning 'stuff' is vague - for instance what constitutes next to a highway (how close?) has never been established in court.
As daft as it seems, simply keeping one part of the old structure, one post etc. may have been a get out of jail free card.
In the first instance I'd politely and factually write back, quote the legislation, stating that you have merely maintained a long-established fence at it's pre-existing height, enclose the best photo/statement from neighbour(s), state that you therfore don't believe that you need to apply for PP, and could they please clarify the reason for their request. You won't lose anything or prejudice any future application by doing that.
As daft as it seems, simply keeping one part of the old structure, one post etc. may have been a get out of jail free card.
In the first instance I'd politely and factually write back, quote the legislation, stating that you have merely maintained a long-established fence at it's pre-existing height, enclose the best photo/statement from neighbour(s), state that you therfore don't believe that you need to apply for PP, and could they please clarify the reason for their request. You won't lose anything or prejudice any future application by doing that.
Mr GrimNasty said:
The legal advisers to planning departments seem to be of the mind that "maintained, improved or altered" does not include like for like total replacement, and I tend to agree. A lot of this planning 'stuff' is vague - for instance what constitutes next to a highway (how close?) has never been established in court.
As daft as it seems, simply keeping one part of the old structure, one post etc. may have been a get out of jail free card.
In the first instance I'd politely and factually write back, quote the legislation, stating that you have merely maintained a long-established fence at it's pre-existing height, enclose the best photo/statement from neighbour(s), state that you therfore don't believe that you need to apply for PP, and could they please clarify the reason for their request. You won't lose anything or prejudice any future application by doing that.
Thanks, that's along the lines I had been thinking, I don't want to hack them off, so will keep it on polite terms. As daft as it seems, simply keeping one part of the old structure, one post etc. may have been a get out of jail free card.
In the first instance I'd politely and factually write back, quote the legislation, stating that you have merely maintained a long-established fence at it's pre-existing height, enclose the best photo/statement from neighbour(s), state that you therfore don't believe that you need to apply for PP, and could they please clarify the reason for their request. You won't lose anything or prejudice any future application by doing that.
Unfortunatly I think I dumped all the old fencing, but will check in my old wood pile and see if there is anything that may be consitituted as part of the old fence that could be included in the new structure.
NorthEast said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
The legal advisers to planning departments seem to be of the mind that "maintained, improved or altered" does not include like for like total replacement, and I tend to agree. A lot of this planning 'stuff' is vague - for instance what constitutes next to a highway (how close?) has never been established in court.
As daft as it seems, simply keeping one part of the old structure, one post etc. may have been a get out of jail free card.
In the first instance I'd politely and factually write back, quote the legislation, stating that you have merely maintained a long-established fence at it's pre-existing height, enclose the best photo/statement from neighbour(s), state that you therfore don't believe that you need to apply for PP, and could they please clarify the reason for their request. You won't lose anything or prejudice any future application by doing that.
Thanks, that's along the lines I had been thinking, I don't want to hack them off, so will keep it on polite terms. As daft as it seems, simply keeping one part of the old structure, one post etc. may have been a get out of jail free card.
In the first instance I'd politely and factually write back, quote the legislation, stating that you have merely maintained a long-established fence at it's pre-existing height, enclose the best photo/statement from neighbour(s), state that you therfore don't believe that you need to apply for PP, and could they please clarify the reason for their request. You won't lose anything or prejudice any future application by doing that.
Unfortunatly I think I dumped all the old fencing, but will check in my old wood pile and see if there is anything that may be consitituted as part of the old fence that could be included in the new structure.
I now see from their planning portal, the complaint about the fence was received was via Internal Referral, whatever that means, but they are also questioning an exisiting side fence between the front and rear of the property, although this has not been mentioned in any phone conversation or in their letter. this fence again has been up years without any complaint.
I wonder if these people are feeling the squeeze with the slowdown on new planning development work and now hunting for things to keep them in employment.
Eventually I seem to have planning permission now, £185 lighter (£150 for application plus £35 for maps)
The expiry date for them to sort it by is actually today. The initial application was made on the 6th May, there was a couple of false starts because the application form I used from their web site was out of date, and also due to me missing a signature on the 2nd form - but other than that no other communication from them during the process.
One of my neighbours who was written to by the planning also submitted a strong letter in favour for the new fence.
However the enforcement order still appears to be open, I'll keep an eye on that being closed out over the next few days.
The expiry date for them to sort it by is actually today. The initial application was made on the 6th May, there was a couple of false starts because the application form I used from their web site was out of date, and also due to me missing a signature on the 2nd form - but other than that no other communication from them during the process.
One of my neighbours who was written to by the planning also submitted a strong letter in favour for the new fence.
However the enforcement order still appears to be open, I'll keep an eye on that being closed out over the next few days.
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