Odd aggressive dog behaviour problem
Discussion
Hi all. Posting on behalf of a friend.
He has a rescue dog (think it is a collie or collie cross, about 2 years old) which for a few months has been absolutely fine. Recently it has started snapping at people. Never at my friend or his family but does at strangers and other people the dog has met before.
we had a few people together last night so tried to find out what might set the dog off. Dog had a muzzle on so no danger to us
we found it does not matter if owner is there or not, who the "stranger" is male/female, age , clothing etc.
Same behaviour from the dog each time though.
The dog was happy for strangers to approach it/ the owner, look at the dog talk to it. If the person sat down the dog would even sit next to them and lean up against them or sit at their feet.
As soon as a "stranger" tried to stroke the dog (does not matter where) then the dog would put its ears back flat stare at the person then snap at their hand. No growling or baring teeth.
We then went for our run (canicross) and even with the muzzle off the dog was absolutely fine, no barking, growling, chasing people, no aggression to other dogs even when close. Nobody was trying to stroke the dog during the run.
My friend is seeking pro help about this too but I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas. He is the 3rd owner of this dog and does not want to give up on it if he can fix it. No idea if the dog has been abused before or not.
Thanks for any help
He has a rescue dog (think it is a collie or collie cross, about 2 years old) which for a few months has been absolutely fine. Recently it has started snapping at people. Never at my friend or his family but does at strangers and other people the dog has met before.
we had a few people together last night so tried to find out what might set the dog off. Dog had a muzzle on so no danger to us
we found it does not matter if owner is there or not, who the "stranger" is male/female, age , clothing etc.
Same behaviour from the dog each time though.
The dog was happy for strangers to approach it/ the owner, look at the dog talk to it. If the person sat down the dog would even sit next to them and lean up against them or sit at their feet.
As soon as a "stranger" tried to stroke the dog (does not matter where) then the dog would put its ears back flat stare at the person then snap at their hand. No growling or baring teeth.
We then went for our run (canicross) and even with the muzzle off the dog was absolutely fine, no barking, growling, chasing people, no aggression to other dogs even when close. Nobody was trying to stroke the dog during the run.
My friend is seeking pro help about this too but I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas. He is the 3rd owner of this dog and does not want to give up on it if he can fix it. No idea if the dog has been abused before or not.
Thanks for any help
Jasandjules said:
Not in my view. Sounds like fear.
I'm not a behaviourist but if it'll come and sit with strangers its not fear of people. If it bites people with out warning its dangerous and I would take it to the vets on a one way trip.Sorry if this is harsh and I know its easier to say than do but you can't take risks with dogs that bite.
Not much help, but I had a friend with a Border Collie with similar issues. Didn't bite the family but not happy with strangers touching it.
When it first saw me, it was very happy and ran over to me to get stroked/scratched. I would have about 30 seconds of that and then over the next minute this would happen:
1) Tail wagging slows down
2) Tail wagging stops and ears go down
3) Whiskers start twitching
4) A bit of movement in lips
5) Lips curl up slowly and growling starts
6) If I touch it again within a few hours I would get bitten (proper piercing bite)
Apparently I was the only one outside of the family that was "allowed" those first 30 seconds - anyone else touching it would get teeth & growling straight away.
They sent it off to a dog trainer for 2 weeks, all problems sorted, comments like "he's the smartest and friendliest dog I've ever trained"... Within a day of getting home he was back to his usual self
- proving that the problem was not the dog but the owners (as in most cases).
IMO the root of the problem in that case was frustration. The dog got walked lots, but I don't think walking is enough for a working breed like a Collie - he should have had some kind of "job" to make him use his brain. I never saw him learning any new tricks or playing games, etc. He was either at home and expected to sleep quietly or on a walk and expected to walk quietly - not fun!
When it first saw me, it was very happy and ran over to me to get stroked/scratched. I would have about 30 seconds of that and then over the next minute this would happen:
1) Tail wagging slows down
2) Tail wagging stops and ears go down
3) Whiskers start twitching
4) A bit of movement in lips
5) Lips curl up slowly and growling starts
6) If I touch it again within a few hours I would get bitten (proper piercing bite)
Apparently I was the only one outside of the family that was "allowed" those first 30 seconds - anyone else touching it would get teeth & growling straight away.
They sent it off to a dog trainer for 2 weeks, all problems sorted, comments like "he's the smartest and friendliest dog I've ever trained"... Within a day of getting home he was back to his usual self
- proving that the problem was not the dog but the owners (as in most cases).IMO the root of the problem in that case was frustration. The dog got walked lots, but I don't think walking is enough for a working breed like a Collie - he should have had some kind of "job" to make him use his brain. I never saw him learning any new tricks or playing games, etc. He was either at home and expected to sleep quietly or on a walk and expected to walk quietly - not fun!
rasputin said:
IMO the root of the problem in that case was frustration. The dog got walked lots, but I don't think walking is enough for a working breed like a Collie - he should have had some kind of "job" to make him use his brain. I never saw him learning any new tricks or playing games, etc. He was either at home and expected to sleep quietly or on a walk and expected to walk quietly - not fun!
Seen this before with collies, they have to be doing something....
boy said: I'm not a behaviourist but if it'll come and sit with strangers its not fear of people. If it bites people with out warning its dangerous and I would take it to the vets on a one way trip.
Sorry if this is harsh and I know its easier to say than do but you can't take risks with dogs that bite.
No, you don't understand fear aggression and some of the manifestations in my view. I've dealt with dogs who come running over wagging their tails asking for attention, then they suddenly snap out of fear..... Sorry if this is harsh and I know its easier to say than do but you can't take risks with dogs that bite.
IMO anyone who rescues a dog then does this deserves to be prevented from ever owning animals again, it is one of the risks of rescues. I would have hoped and/or expected the rescue centre to have informed the person of this, and he can also take it back there (if it is a decent place).
boy said: IMHO muzzles are cruel and the dog has life.
Nothing cruel whatsoever about using a muzzle as long as the dog is gradually accustomed to it. Just like a walking halti or harness, if you get it right then the dog won't care a jot that it's wearing one.OP, can't possibly begin to guess what your friend's dog has been through previously but if he is snapping with no warning this could be because he has been punished for growling or sending other warning signs in the past. Lots of people tell their dogs off for growling then get angry when their dog snaps out of the blue; if you remove the dog's tool to warn people to back off, what else can it do? Instead of going from
1: uncomfortable
2: agitated
3: sending a subtle warning
4: sending an overt warning
5: snapping
the dog goes from 1 or 2 straight to 5, because they haven't been allowed to use the other steps.
Still, it's not impossible to conquer the situation they're in now. The majority of doggy fear issues can be overcome with de-sensitization. By that, I mean gradual and regular contact with people, not flooding the dog. Remember, the dog has most likely had several bad experiences that have caused him to associate a hand coming towards him with fear, so your friend needs to undo this bit by bit. Being petted by other people needs to become a positive experience, maybe use food or another favoured reward to back this up.
Where did your friend rescue him from? Many rescues now offer free behavioural advice for dogs they have rehomed.
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