Potential Scam Merchant
Discussion
I'll keep this brief and missing the strong language I would like to use. I advertised an item around £100 on Gumtree (i know, i know ). Accurately told them on the message an texts that the item was broken and would require parts or they could break it up and use it for spares. Nowhere on the listing did I say it was new or working.
Got a few text from a lady who was interested. Made a sensible offer and paid through paypal. I paid for the postage signed for special delivery and sent it off. Then I get this message today.
"Hi, I took the item today to get an estimate for a repair and he's opened it up to find parts missing (the expensive parts!) including bearings. He says that there were parts sitting loose inside the case that I feel sure you would have noticed when you removed the casing to take a picture but failed to mention. You did list this as spares or repair but it is beyond economical repair. I would really appreciate a refund as I feel you have misrepresented what you were selling and I have paid £80 for something worthless."
Then two minutes after this message she has opened a case with paypal for a refund. This has all been done through paypal and not eBay.
My argument is that if you buy an item as spares or repair you expect to buy parts for it.
Have I been scammed and will paypal allow this to continue and i'll be £100 down the s
tter.
Got a few text from a lady who was interested. Made a sensible offer and paid through paypal. I paid for the postage signed for special delivery and sent it off. Then I get this message today.
"Hi, I took the item today to get an estimate for a repair and he's opened it up to find parts missing (the expensive parts!) including bearings. He says that there were parts sitting loose inside the case that I feel sure you would have noticed when you removed the casing to take a picture but failed to mention. You did list this as spares or repair but it is beyond economical repair. I would really appreciate a refund as I feel you have misrepresented what you were selling and I have paid £80 for something worthless."
Then two minutes after this message she has opened a case with paypal for a refund. This has all been done through paypal and not eBay.
My argument is that if you buy an item as spares or repair you expect to buy parts for it.
Have I been scammed and will paypal allow this to continue and i'll be £100 down the s
tter.Edited by BlueHave on Monday 9th May 23:22
Hard one to be honest, i can see there side but the whole "spares or repairs" is vague. You could say that all the parts should be there but are broken / worn out, lets say an motorcycle engine.
The piston could have gone and damaged the cylinder bore but you would expect the crankshaft and con rod to still be in the engine along with the gearbox. If these parts have been omitted /taken out and the engine put back together loosely then i would not describe this as "spares or repairs" rather only good for spares would be a good way to describe it.
I think going on past PH cases with pay pay, you may loose on this one.
Sorry
The piston could have gone and damaged the cylinder bore but you would expect the crankshaft and con rod to still be in the engine along with the gearbox. If these parts have been omitted /taken out and the engine put back together loosely then i would not describe this as "spares or repairs" rather only good for spares would be a good way to describe it.
I think going on past PH cases with pay pay, you may loose on this one.
Sorry
It seems to me that the buyer was expecting from the start to take advantage of the repair bit rather than the spares bit in the description. Most things can be rebuilt at a cost. Whether the buyer is prepared to shell out that cost is something else. When it exceeds the market value of the repaired item then the buyer regrets having taken the punt.
I agree with the previous poster that a refund may be the likely outcome with Paypal.
If the item is of no use to her then she should have no problem with returning it (at the seller's cost). He can then decide whether to relist it, scrap it, or get it repaired. It's only a scam if she keeps it and the 'uneconomical to repair' is in fact a lie. Is there anything in writing on a business letterhead from a third party to state this or does the OP only have her word on it?
Btw, is the item in question a clock?
I agree with the previous poster that a refund may be the likely outcome with Paypal.
If the item is of no use to her then she should have no problem with returning it (at the seller's cost). He can then decide whether to relist it, scrap it, or get it repaired. It's only a scam if she keeps it and the 'uneconomical to repair' is in fact a lie. Is there anything in writing on a business letterhead from a third party to state this or does the OP only have her word on it?
Btw, is the item in question a clock?
Just talk to PayPal, let them have the texts, it was sold as spares or repair not as "a cheap repair that lets you fix it up and get a working item for less than the cost of buying a working one in the first place".
It shouldn't be a problem unless your advert is full of "easy fix" type statements or if she's asked you about the ease of repair and you've given an answer that doesn't stack up.
It shouldn't be a problem unless your advert is full of "easy fix" type statements or if she's asked you about the ease of repair and you've given an answer that doesn't stack up.
So, to clarify, did you explicitly say that bits were missing - just you didn't specify what bits? IMHO, therefore, that's down to the buyer to clarify what bits are missing surely, to make sure that they're not the expensive bits. You may have been vague, perhaps deliberately so, but you were not lying neither were you misrepresenting.
That all said, it's hard to really have an opinion without knowing what the item was an what was missing. As another poster said similar, if you advertised a car as "spares or repairs" with "some items missing" and it turned out to have no mechanicals whatsoever then that is a bit (very) dodgy. But if you're talking about a amp that has all the knobs etc. but is missing one of the processor boards the I'd argue that's down to buyer to make sure the bit they need is definitely present... especially if it's markedly cheaper than a fully working model would go for.
"Spares" being the operative word here. I, for one, would take that to mean that it's not economical for the seller to repair the item but might be so for a buyer who knows what they're doing/got a mate who can do it cheap/whatever. There's a reason the seller is not asking top dollar for it.
That all said, it's hard to really have an opinion without knowing what the item was an what was missing. As another poster said similar, if you advertised a car as "spares or repairs" with "some items missing" and it turned out to have no mechanicals whatsoever then that is a bit (very) dodgy. But if you're talking about a amp that has all the knobs etc. but is missing one of the processor boards the I'd argue that's down to buyer to make sure the bit they need is definitely present... especially if it's markedly cheaper than a fully working model would go for.
"Spares" being the operative word here. I, for one, would take that to mean that it's not economical for the seller to repair the item but might be so for a buyer who knows what they're doing/got a mate who can do it cheap/whatever. There's a reason the seller is not asking top dollar for it.
DuraAce said:
Selling on Gumtree = Cash on collection only.
Never had any issues.
This ^^ annoying, but safe (everything I always want is £10 or £20 and 300 miles away). Never had any issues.
And yes, you should have described and pictured your item more clearly. Either get it back and pay her out, or leave it with her and pay her out.
I don't think you can just buy something listed as Spares and Repairs and expect to take it to a business and get it fixed within the economics of the item.
These things only work out if you already have the parts to fix it and/or can do all the labour yourself for free.
Parts missing might be a stretch too far thou, should have listed it as "not inspected or tested in any way."
These things only work out if you already have the parts to fix it and/or can do all the labour yourself for free.
Parts missing might be a stretch too far thou, should have listed it as "not inspected or tested in any way."
Edited by PAULJ5555 on Tuesday 10th May 13:30
I think the buyer has a good case, and as a responsible seller you should probably ask for the item back and refund her money regardless of Paypal. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems as though you have harvested and re-used the expensive bits, and sold what was left without disclosing this?
UPDATE
Seems the buyer thought I was some soft in the head (stupid) believing I would sell the item for £100 even though it was would be worth £600 repaired.
Kind of the reason it was sold as strictly spares or repair was that it would cost at least a few hundred to fix. This was made clear via texts.
Seems the buyer thought I was some soft in the head (stupid) believing I would sell the item for £100 even though it was would be worth £600 repaired.
Kind of the reason it was sold as strictly spares or repair was that it would cost at least a few hundred to fix. This was made clear via texts.
BlueHave said:
UPDATE
Seems the buyer thought I was some soft in the head (stupid) believing I would sell the item for £100 even though it was would be worth £600 repaired.
Kind of the reason it was sold as strictly spares or repair was that it would cost at least a few hundred to fix. This was made clear via texts.
Glad it's worked out for you, but from the original post she did seem to have a valid point. I think this bit was key : Seems the buyer thought I was some soft in the head (stupid) believing I would sell the item for £100 even though it was would be worth £600 repaired.
Kind of the reason it was sold as strictly spares or repair was that it would cost at least a few hundred to fix. This was made clear via texts.
"You did list this as spares or repair but it is beyond economical repair."
If the repairs needed are sufficiently expensive that it's almost as cheap / cheaper to buy a new one then it's really only any good for spare - not spares or repair.
davek_964 said:
If the repairs needed are sufficiently expensive that it's almost as cheap / cheaper to buy a new one then it's really only any good for spare - not spares or repair.
I disagree with this.If it would cost a 'normal' punter £1,000 to repair an item if a large chunk (let's say £800) of that is labour then if you sell it to the person who would be doing the repair then he can repair the item for £200 - i.e. just the parts so 'Spares or Repair' is a perfectly acceptable outcome.
UPDATE PART 2 - CASE CLOSED
Got on the phone to Paypal who having been sent texts and emails as well as the advert clearly showing the words 'spares or repair' and 'this will need money spent to get it ticking over again' as well as some parts may require changing '
He immediately closed the case having noticed that she opened a claim before even sending a message to myself. She also stated that she had taken the item for repair and got a quote for repair. He said this indicated that she knew when she bought it that it was broken and understood the listing.
CASE CLOSED
Got on the phone to Paypal who having been sent texts and emails as well as the advert clearly showing the words 'spares or repair' and 'this will need money spent to get it ticking over again' as well as some parts may require changing '
He immediately closed the case having noticed that she opened a claim before even sending a message to myself. She also stated that she had taken the item for repair and got a quote for repair. He said this indicated that she knew when she bought it that it was broken and understood the listing.
CASE CLOSED
The Moose said:
I disagree with this.
If it would cost a 'normal' punter £1,000 to repair an item if a large chunk (let's say £800) of that is labour then if you sell it to the person who would be doing the repair then he can repair the item for £200 - i.e. just the parts so 'Spares or Repair' is a perfectly acceptable outcome.
^yes this - a lot of people who place little monetary value on time will repair allsorts and be happy with it. Beyond economic repair is a relative term. If it would cost a 'normal' punter £1,000 to repair an item if a large chunk (let's say £800) of that is labour then if you sell it to the person who would be doing the repair then he can repair the item for £200 - i.e. just the parts so 'Spares or Repair' is a perfectly acceptable outcome.
As for the OP's class of punter I'd say it smells more of a clueless moron with an overdeveloped sense of entitlement rather than someone trying to scam.
Regardless of how PayPal ruled, I'm still interested if the OP knew there were parts missing and didn't disclose it. If I was buying spares/repair I would expect all parts to be there even if broken, unless otherwise disclosed. Not disclosImg is simply dishonest, however you look at it, even if the price is fair for an item with missing parts.
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