How culturally deprived are non mainstream language speakers
Discussion
I was having a wander around Bruges the other day and got to perusing a Flemish bookshop.
Now obviously almost everyone in that part of the world is bilingual or more, but if you were a pure Flemish speaker there must be vast tracts of fiction, information and thought that's never been translated into your language.
Local language speakers make up for it to an extent, but the more local they are the fewer there'll be. Times that by the amount of obscure languages out there and there must be an awful lot of people with never-filled gaps in their knowledge.
Does it seep in via subconscious routes or is it fed to them by charitable and bilingual?
Now obviously almost everyone in that part of the world is bilingual or more, but if you were a pure Flemish speaker there must be vast tracts of fiction, information and thought that's never been translated into your language.
Local language speakers make up for it to an extent, but the more local they are the fewer there'll be. Times that by the amount of obscure languages out there and there must be an awful lot of people with never-filled gaps in their knowledge.
Does it seep in via subconscious routes or is it fed to them by charitable and bilingual?
You might value your own culture more though, and have a greater understanding of its literature and poetry than the vast majority of us English speakers bother with. How many people are familiar with the actual work of Shakespeare? Chaucer? Or even Jane Austin, other than as filmed?
A minority language is a great thing for promoting a sense of identity.
A minority language is a great thing for promoting a sense of identity.
Its can be a serious problem, I live in Malaysia, which has four languages, Malay, Hokian. Tamil and English, its not that you are unaware of events, but if you have only one language you will have your view point slanted towards the official line, people who only speak Malay will only get the official government view point form state controlled media, and if you think the BBC is biased you need to look at local news here. they use all four languages, and basically repeat the 6 o'clock news four times, the English and Chinese speakers can get a much broader view point from satellite TV.
Interesting that English is the Third most commonly spoken language apparently ....
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spo...
Guess our language is not mainstream any more
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spo...
Guess our language is not mainstream any more
bloomen said:
I was having a wander around Bruges the other day and got to perusing a Flemish bookshop.
Now obviously almost everyone in that part of the world is bilingual or more, but if you were a pure Flemish speaker there must be vast tracts of fiction, information and thought that's never been translated into your language.
Local language speakers make up for it to an extent, but the more local they are the fewer there'll be. Times that by the amount of obscure languages out there and there must be an awful lot of people with never-filled gaps in their knowledge.
Does it seep in via subconscious routes or is it fed to them by charitable and bilingual?
The number of people who ONLY speak Flemish is tiny. Well, in Belgium, anyway, because all schools there are bilingual - as well as teaching English.Now obviously almost everyone in that part of the world is bilingual or more, but if you were a pure Flemish speaker there must be vast tracts of fiction, information and thought that's never been translated into your language.
Local language speakers make up for it to an extent, but the more local they are the fewer there'll be. Times that by the amount of obscure languages out there and there must be an awful lot of people with never-filled gaps in their knowledge.
Does it seep in via subconscious routes or is it fed to them by charitable and bilingual?
In the Netherlands, there's a lot of people who only speak Flemish (well, Dutch as it's called there). But they tend to be older because, again, all the schools teach English - and German.
Monoglots in Europe are most likely to be English speakers.
XJSJohn said:
Interesting that English is the Third most commonly spoken language apparently ....
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spo...
Guess our language is not mainstream any more
That site actually says it's the third most spoken first language but the second most spoken when you include non-native speakers. https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spo...
Guess our language is not mainstream any more
I think it's probably fair to consider the third most spoken language in the world to be "mainstream" anyway.
mac96 said:
You might value your own culture more though, and have a greater understanding of its literature and poetry than the vast majority of us English speakers bother with. How many people are familiar with the actual work of Shakespeare? Chaucer? Or even Jane Austin, other than as filmed?
A minority language is a great thing for promoting a sense of identity.
I met a Belgian last year who wasn't entirely sure who Shakespeare was. He was from Wallonia, but I don't think I would know the first thing about their culture besides pâté. I would say we absorb a lot of culture without really thinking about it, I have never taken an active interest in literature but I could probably name 5-10 of his plays and know something about most of them.A minority language is a great thing for promoting a sense of identity.
What would be more depriving would be not knowing the language of your surroundings, like working abroad in a foreign country or living in the bubble of a migrant community.
SGirl said:
eldar said:
Google translate is well known for its ability, capturing all the required nuances of both source and target language.
Speaking to non UK colleagues it still leaves a lot to be desired especially when dealing with language pairs not involving English, but it is incredible how it has come on in a few years.
wisbech said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yep, it is worst for poetry. For example, Cantonese is a tonal language, so poems have a ‘singing’ quality that just can’t be translated. Bit like reading a précis of Shakespeare - you get the plot, but without the art.A few years back, I was reading one of Henning Mankell's novels. SWMBO speaks fluent Swedish, and had the same novel in the original, so we compared 'em. She was astonished how bad the translations were. Not only was there a lot of detail missing (this particular novel was partially set in Africa - the translation didn't name the country), but there was an entire preface completely missing.
It's not unlike watching a film compared to reading the book.
egomeister said:
I appreciate translation is your business, so you probably have a better understanding of it's capabilities, but I was sent an article in French a couple of months ago which got automatically converted to English - it was only about 2/3rds of the way through I spotted it was Google translate. Whilst as someone with rusty school level French I can't obviously comment on nuance I have to say the translation was astonishingly good, and read as if it was natively written in English.
Speaking to non UK colleagues it still leaves a lot to be desired especially when dealing with language pairs not involving English, but it is incredible how it has come on in a few years.
It might be okay for French, I don't know. But it really is dependent on language combination. Finnish <> English produces the most horrendous garbage. Scandinavian languages <> English often produce something that looks reasonable, until you delve a little deeper - then you find it misses words out ("not" is a word frequently omitted, which is a tad alarming!), it produces solutions that you think sound okay but are actually incorrect. I looked up "øverste leder" a little while ago to see if it could come up with anything more exciting than "general manager" - and it suggested "supreme leader". Speaking to non UK colleagues it still leaves a lot to be desired especially when dealing with language pairs not involving English, but it is incredible how it has come on in a few years.
I really would be suspicious of Google Translate. While the text may sound like good English, there are no guarantees it's an accurate translation. It simply can't interpret nuance, it can't handle ambiguity. I occasionally use it as an aide-mémoire in my work, but I certainly wouldn't trust it with anything more than a couple of words. Not least because it harvests everything you give it to make itself "better"!
Edited by SGirl on Monday 16th October 10:27
TooMany2cvs said:
Even where we THINK we know the foreign culture, in very popular forms, we're really only knowing the work of the translator.
A few years back, I was reading one of Henning Mankell's novels. SWMBO speaks fluent Swedish, and had the same novel in the original, so we compared 'em. She was astonished how bad the translations were. Not only was there a lot of detail missing (this particular novel was partially set in Africa - the translation didn't name the country), but there was an entire preface completely missing.
It's not unlike watching a film compared to reading the book.
Translations of literature don't have to be faithful like-for-like translations. The publisher of the translated version can edit as s/he sees fit. Bits missing from a novel doesn't necessarily mean a bad translation - a bad translation is one that sounds like a translation and contains grammatical and spelling errors. Your average translator wouldn't be so daft as to leave out an entire preface, that's got to have been an editorial decision. A few years back, I was reading one of Henning Mankell's novels. SWMBO speaks fluent Swedish, and had the same novel in the original, so we compared 'em. She was astonished how bad the translations were. Not only was there a lot of detail missing (this particular novel was partially set in Africa - the translation didn't name the country), but there was an entire preface completely missing.
It's not unlike watching a film compared to reading the book.
Jimmy Recard said:
Translation theory involves a lot more than just writing stuff out in another language. It’s a complex topic
I wish more people would realise this. The number of times I've heard "well, a girl in our office has an A level in French, I'll get her to translate this". I always think - good luck with that. 
SGirl said:
It might be okay for French, I don't know. But it really is dependent on language combination. Finnish <> English produces the most horrendous garbage. Scandinavian languages <> English often prduce something that looks reasonable, until you delve a little deeper - then you find it misses words out ("not" is a word frequently omitted, which is a tad alarming!), it produces solutions that you think sound okay but are actually incorrect. I looked up "øverste leder" a little while ago to see if it could come up with anything more exciting than "general manager" - and it suggested "supreme leader".
I really would be suspicious of Google Translate. While the text may sound like good English, there are no guarantees it's an accurate translation. It simply can't interpret nuance, it can't handle ambiguity. I occasionally use it as an aide-mémoire in my work, but I certainly wouldn't trust it with anything more than a couple of words. Not least because it harvests everything you give it to make itself "better"!
Simple check to see if the autotranslation makes sense... Put it back through again.I really would be suspicious of Google Translate. While the text may sound like good English, there are no guarantees it's an accurate translation. It simply can't interpret nuance, it can't handle ambiguity. I occasionally use it as an aide-mémoire in my work, but I certainly wouldn't trust it with anything more than a couple of words. Not least because it harvests everything you give it to make itself "better"!
XJSJohn said:
Interesting that English is the Third most commonly spoken language apparently ....
https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spo...
Guess our language is not mainstream any more
It's third in terms of gross number of native speakers - but second when you factor people who have English as a second language too (only slightly behind Mandarin)https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/the-10-most-spo...
Guess our language is not mainstream any more
It is however the most widely spoken language in the world. Even though more people speak Mandarin as a first or second language - most of this number are concentrated in China.
Taking an example I know well, most educated Dutch people will speak English, German and either French or Spanish. This is expected and almost 'table stakes' for all Lyceum educated people. The challenge comes for those who went through the lower tier of secondary education and are not so language proficient.
In my business, English is the corporate language and all staff have to be proficient in it to a business level. This effectively closes it off as a career choice to any Dutch national who doesn't possess that level of English, however technically competent they happen to be.
In my business, English is the corporate language and all staff have to be proficient in it to a business level. This effectively closes it off as a career choice to any Dutch national who doesn't possess that level of English, however technically competent they happen to be.
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