childminders - self employed or employees?
Discussion
soo we have a "childminder" or nanny or whatever you want to call her look after our child.
she picks here up from school and either takes her to her house or back to ours until we finish work so has her about 3 hours a day term time. holidays she does the odd full day here and there. she has her own kid as well that she brings.
she now wants a proper contract and from first look this makes her a full employee so we would have to pay ni, pension possibly and she would have all sort or rights like maternity cover and paid holiday.
is this normal? is there a difference between a child minder and nanny? seems the cost will get stupid what do other people do? she has one kid and is young so is quite likely to have another child.
what is the threshold where they become an employee rather than self employed?
thanks
she picks here up from school and either takes her to her house or back to ours until we finish work so has her about 3 hours a day term time. holidays she does the odd full day here and there. she has her own kid as well that she brings.
she now wants a proper contract and from first look this makes her a full employee so we would have to pay ni, pension possibly and she would have all sort or rights like maternity cover and paid holiday.
is this normal? is there a difference between a child minder and nanny? seems the cost will get stupid what do other people do? she has one kid and is young so is quite likely to have another child.
what is the threshold where they become an employee rather than self employed?
thanks
we have similar - i wouldnt entertain the proposition made to you personally
we pay a standard day rate for our nanny, she has been on holiday with us (we pick up the tab for everything, she had 1.5days off in the week we went away last time) ... ultimately its upto her to be self employed to ensure she is fully compliant, paying everything she should be etc.
we pay a standard day rate for our nanny, she has been on holiday with us (we pick up the tab for everything, she had 1.5days off in the week we went away last time) ... ultimately its upto her to be self employed to ensure she is fully compliant, paying everything she should be etc.
alorotom said:
we have similar - i wouldnt entertain the proposition made to you personally
we pay a standard day rate for our nanny, she has been on holiday with us (we pick up the tab for everything, she had 1.5days off in the week we went away last time) ... ultimately its upto her to be self employed to ensure she is fully compliant, paying everything she should be etc.
is that actually legal as from what i've initially read in a panic in bed is that they have to be an employee if emloyed as you describe?we pay a standard day rate for our nanny, she has been on holiday with us (we pick up the tab for everything, she had 1.5days off in the week we went away last time) ... ultimately its upto her to be self employed to ensure she is fully compliant, paying everything she should be etc.
petemurphy said:
KrazyIvan said:
Is it only your child she looks after?
We never used a child minder, ours were picked up after school by a local creche, along with other kids.
at the moment yes - would love a local creche etc but theres nothing theres hardly any after school clubs etc We never used a child minder, ours were picked up after school by a local creche, along with other kids.
It is a bit of a farce, that a family hiring someone for a few hours a day suddenly becomes a microemployer. I understand that its to do with safeguarding futures i.e. through pensions, but it does make you wonder if having both parents in employment is actually worth it (by not having one in employment has a negative effect on the economy possibly).
I think (and cannot be 100% sure you need to look it up) that if the person is over 22 and earns at least the minimal taxable wage then you have to set them up as an employee and pay them like a company would. If you do not, then you are breaking the law.
I think (and cannot be 100% sure you need to look it up) that if the person is over 22 and earns at least the minimal taxable wage then you have to set them up as an employee and pay them like a company would. If you do not, then you are breaking the law.
A childminder will charge you a fee for her services, and most likely look after other children at the same time. Charges are generally per child whereby a nanny will look after as many kids as you have.
A nanny is employed by you as an employee. You pay her, together with employers and employee NI and sort out her tax and other benefits at source.
We hired a nanny when we had three children and were immediately informed about her holiday dates. We then had to book the same time off - and pay her for her time away.
A nanny is employed by you as an employee. You pay her, together with employers and employee NI and sort out her tax and other benefits at source.
We hired a nanny when we had three children and were immediately informed about her holiday dates. We then had to book the same time off - and pay her for her time away.
Sheepshanks said:
Wow - you could be in for a big shock.
I’ve heard that too - ditto au pairs. I guess the only way around it is to have different baby sitters as in adhoc to get around it otherwise your stumped.
For so many families the cost will escalate to make the hours the wife has decided to go back on - simply unviable and part time the only real option meaning no one could commute to London
WhiskyDisco said:
A childminder will charge you a fee for her services, and most likely look after other children at the same time. Charges are generally per child whereby a nanny will look after as many kids as you have.
A nanny is employed by you as an employee. You pay her, together with employers and employee NI and sort out her tax and other benefits at source.
We hired a nanny when we had three children and were immediately informed about her holiday dates. We then had to book the same time off - and pay her for her time away.
do u use a service like A nanny is employed by you as an employee. You pay her, together with employers and employee NI and sort out her tax and other benefits at source.
We hired a nanny when we had three children and were immediately informed about her holiday dates. We then had to book the same time off - and pay her for her time away.
https://www.nannytax.co.uk
https://www.payefornannies.co.uk
https://www.nannypaye.co.uk
or do it yourself?
currently working out if its worth me staying in a job ffs!
Welshbeef said:
I’ve heard that too - ditto au pairs.
I guess the only way around it is to have different baby sitters as in adhoc to get around it otherwise your stumped.
For so many families the cost will escalate to make the hours the wife has decided to go back on - simply unviable and part time the only real option meaning no one could commute to London
how sexist - my wife earns more than me i'm the bytch!I guess the only way around it is to have different baby sitters as in adhoc to get around it otherwise your stumped.
For so many families the cost will escalate to make the hours the wife has decided to go back on - simply unviable and part time the only real option meaning no one could commute to London
alorotom said:
we have similar - i wouldnt entertain the proposition made to you personally
we pay a standard day rate for our nanny, she has been on holiday with us (we pick up the tab for everything, she had 1.5days off in the week we went away last time) ... ultimately its upto her to be self employed to ensure she is fully compliant, paying everything she should be etc.
Unless your nanny is employed by an agency, I don't think that's legal, is it?we pay a standard day rate for our nanny, she has been on holiday with us (we pick up the tab for everything, she had 1.5days off in the week we went away last time) ... ultimately its upto her to be self employed to ensure she is fully compliant, paying everything she should be etc.
To my mind, your position is very different to the OP's.
From the sound of it, you have a dedicated nanny who is working for you and only for you. As much as you'd like to say she's self-employed, my understanding is that an employment tribunal, HMRC or anyone else would look at it and say "if it looks like an employee and it sounds like an employee, then it is an employee".
The OP, on the other hand, has a childminder who provides a service for a short period of time during term time. It may be that he is that childminder's only customer, but it's not an exclusive relationship, the childminder would presumably be free to bring back another child or two for other parents - although obviously not to the OP's house! - and I can't imagine anyone looking at that and saying the childminder is the OP's employee.
The above, however, is purely idle speculation on my part. What is not, however, is this description from Oxfordshire County Council, which clearly states that "A childminder contracts with parents/carers to provide services on the childminder’s premises."
OP - I'd suggest digging a bit further to see if having the childminder back to your house means they should be considered an employee on the grounds that they aren't then available to offer the service to other customers or something similar? If in doubt, how much hassle would it be to say you'll only ever drop your kid off and collect from the childminder?
Kermit power said:
Unless your nanny is employed by an agency, I don't think that's legal, is it?
To my mind, your position is very different to the OP's.
From the sound of it, you have a dedicated nanny who is working for you and only for you. As much as you'd like to say she's self-employed, my understanding is that an employment tribunal, HMRC or anyone else would look at it and say "if it looks like an employee and it sounds like an employee, then it is an employee".
The OP, on the other hand, has a childminder who provides a service for a short period of time during term time. It may be that he is that childminder's only customer, but it's not an exclusive relationship, the childminder would presumably be free to bring back another child or two for other parents - although obviously not to the OP's house! - and I can't imagine anyone looking at that and saying the childminder is the OP's employee.
The above, however, is purely idle speculation on my part. What is not, however, is this description from Oxfordshire County Council, which clearly states that "A childminder contracts with parents/carers to provide services on the childminder’s premises."
OP - I'd suggest digging a bit further to see if having the childminder back to your house means they should be considered an employee on the grounds that they aren't then available to offer the service to other customers or something similar? If in doubt, how much hassle would it be to say you'll only ever drop your kid off and collect from the childminder?
thanks not too much hassle although would prefer ours. however, think this has come about as childmindernannythinghywoman needs to prove her salary to help get a mortgageTo my mind, your position is very different to the OP's.
From the sound of it, you have a dedicated nanny who is working for you and only for you. As much as you'd like to say she's self-employed, my understanding is that an employment tribunal, HMRC or anyone else would look at it and say "if it looks like an employee and it sounds like an employee, then it is an employee".
The OP, on the other hand, has a childminder who provides a service for a short period of time during term time. It may be that he is that childminder's only customer, but it's not an exclusive relationship, the childminder would presumably be free to bring back another child or two for other parents - although obviously not to the OP's house! - and I can't imagine anyone looking at that and saying the childminder is the OP's employee.
The above, however, is purely idle speculation on my part. What is not, however, is this description from Oxfordshire County Council, which clearly states that "A childminder contracts with parents/carers to provide services on the childminder’s premises."
OP - I'd suggest digging a bit further to see if having the childminder back to your house means they should be considered an employee on the grounds that they aren't then available to offer the service to other customers or something similar? If in doubt, how much hassle would it be to say you'll only ever drop your kid off and collect from the childminder?
petemurphy said:
Kermit power said:
Unless your nanny is employed by an agency, I don't think that's legal, is it?
To my mind, your position is very different to the OP's.
From the sound of it, you have a dedicated nanny who is working for you and only for you. As much as you'd like to say she's self-employed, my understanding is that an employment tribunal, HMRC or anyone else would look at it and say "if it looks like an employee and it sounds like an employee, then it is an employee".
The OP, on the other hand, has a childminder who provides a service for a short period of time during term time. It may be that he is that childminder's only customer, but it's not an exclusive relationship, the childminder would presumably be free to bring back another child or two for other parents - although obviously not to the OP's house! - and I can't imagine anyone looking at that and saying the childminder is the OP's employee.
The above, however, is purely idle speculation on my part. What is not, however, is this description from Oxfordshire County Council, which clearly states that "A childminder contracts with parents/carers to provide services on the childminder’s premises."
OP - I'd suggest digging a bit further to see if having the childminder back to your house means they should be considered an employee on the grounds that they aren't then available to offer the service to other customers or something similar? If in doubt, how much hassle would it be to say you'll only ever drop your kid off and collect from the childminder?
thanks not too much hassle although would prefer ours. however, think this has come about as childmindernannythinghywoman needs to prove her salary to help get a mortgageTo my mind, your position is very different to the OP's.
From the sound of it, you have a dedicated nanny who is working for you and only for you. As much as you'd like to say she's self-employed, my understanding is that an employment tribunal, HMRC or anyone else would look at it and say "if it looks like an employee and it sounds like an employee, then it is an employee".
The OP, on the other hand, has a childminder who provides a service for a short period of time during term time. It may be that he is that childminder's only customer, but it's not an exclusive relationship, the childminder would presumably be free to bring back another child or two for other parents - although obviously not to the OP's house! - and I can't imagine anyone looking at that and saying the childminder is the OP's employee.
The above, however, is purely idle speculation on my part. What is not, however, is this description from Oxfordshire County Council, which clearly states that "A childminder contracts with parents/carers to provide services on the childminder’s premises."
OP - I'd suggest digging a bit further to see if having the childminder back to your house means they should be considered an employee on the grounds that they aren't then available to offer the service to other customers or something similar? If in doubt, how much hassle would it be to say you'll only ever drop your kid off and collect from the childminder?
As such, I'd say that your childminder needs to be applying for a mortgage as a self-employed person. Why should you take on all the hassle of tax/NI/Pension and everything else just to allow her to effectively make a dodgy mortgage application unless you actually want to have her as an employee?
The post halfway down explains it by Whiskeydisco, a nanny (or au pair) is an employee of yours who will look after your children at your place and have agreed working hours and holiday time etc. This is the law and was implemented last year, this isn't a case of a person who is a nanny taking the michael, its their lawful right. I read halfway up that someone has a nanny they pay an agency for, if you are paying the agency direct then you are not the employer of that nanny, your contract is with the agency therefore I would say (without knowing for sure) you are therefore not liable to pay NI pension as you are not the direct employer of the nanny, the agency is, unless there is something in the contract you have with the agency that says otherwise?
A childminder will be effectively a babysitter or the like, self employed and often looking after other children in many different locations.
The nanny you are legally bound to treat as an employee so paying NI pension etc. The childminder is a freelancer/self employed person who you pay on an ad-hoc basis of utilising their services.
OP, which one are you employing? That will dictate what action you need to take.
A childminder will be effectively a babysitter or the like, self employed and often looking after other children in many different locations.
The nanny you are legally bound to treat as an employee so paying NI pension etc. The childminder is a freelancer/self employed person who you pay on an ad-hoc basis of utilising their services.
OP, which one are you employing? That will dictate what action you need to take.
Edited by coldel on Thursday 16th August 08:50
coldel said:
The post halfway down explains it by Whiskeydisco, a nanny (or au pair) is an employee of yours who will look after your children at your place and have agreed working hours and holiday time etc. This is the law and was implemented last year, this isn't a case of a person who is a nanny taking the michael, its their lawful right. I read halfway up that someone has a nanny they pay an agency for, if you are paying the agency direct then you are not the employer of that nanny, your contract is with the agency therefore I would say (without knowing for sure) you are therefore not liable to pay NI pension as you are not the direct employer of the nanny, the agency is, unless there is something in the contract you have with the agency that says otherwise?
A childminder will be effectively a babysitter or the like, self employed and often looking after other children in many different locations.
The nanny you are legally bound to treat as an employee so paying NI pension etc. The childminder is a freelancer/self employed person who you pay on an ad-hoc basis of utilising their services.
OP, which one are you employing? That will dictate what action you need to take.
still slightly confused as which one she would be - is the fact she comes to our house the main evidence that she would have to be a nanny? i would prefer her to be self employedA childminder will be effectively a babysitter or the like, self employed and often looking after other children in many different locations.
The nanny you are legally bound to treat as an employee so paying NI pension etc. The childminder is a freelancer/self employed person who you pay on an ad-hoc basis of utilising their services.
OP, which one are you employing? That will dictate what action you need to take.
Edited by coldel on Thursday 16th August 08:50
What are the working arrangements, have you contracted her to work for you in your household over a period of time and paying her a significant wage each year? I would say that puts her firmly in Nanny territory. If she is just doing a few hours a day with you, then going off and working for other parents, and she is set up as self employed herself looking after other kids at her place etc. then it sounds like a childminder.
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