Cancellation fees
Discussion
My partner is treasurer for the local school's fund-raising PTA group.
They had planned to do a fund-raising night for the school, but due to poor ticket sales have decided to cancel the night.
The guy who was providing the entertainment for the night has asked for 50% of his fee as a cancellation fee. He was going to be paid £300 for the night, and has already been paid £50 as a deposit, so they being asked for a further £100.
Does this seem excessive? Are cancellation fees subject to the same sort of rules as deposits (i.e., can only claim for costs)
I can understand that it is probably too late for him to get another booking for the night, but I can't believe that he was ever going to make £150 profit on a £300 booking in the first place.
They had planned to do a fund-raising night for the school, but due to poor ticket sales have decided to cancel the night.
The guy who was providing the entertainment for the night has asked for 50% of his fee as a cancellation fee. He was going to be paid £300 for the night, and has already been paid £50 as a deposit, so they being asked for a further £100.
Does this seem excessive? Are cancellation fees subject to the same sort of rules as deposits (i.e., can only claim for costs)
I can understand that it is probably too late for him to get another booking for the night, but I can't believe that he was ever going to make £150 profit on a £300 booking in the first place.
I DJ for parties and the like. Thankfully, cancellations are few and far between but are a major pain when they occur.
Looking at it from the Entertainer's perspective, he has planned his affairs around the assumption that the booking will hold. He may well have turned down other bookings and may well have plans for the money he was to receive for his time (he might even be reliant upon the money). Unless he's buying in props and stuff, then his fees will have all been profit. If he had to hire sound equipment, then its likely that the company he's hiring from will impose cancellation fees to him as well and could end up out of pocket.
Problem is that these types of deals are normally cash and informal. I doubt there is a contract or any T&Cs anywhere. So, it comes down to the will of the PTA to compensate him or not. From his perspective, pushing aggressively for it will not ingratiate himself with the PTA (or others that may have need for an Entertainer in the future) in regards to future bookings.
As you might imagine, I'm on the side of the Entertainer. Bottom line is that it was not his fault that the event got binned so why should he be penalised? The PTA loose out on a a bit of fundraising. He could be loosing out on his rent, food, etc.
Looking at it from the Entertainer's perspective, he has planned his affairs around the assumption that the booking will hold. He may well have turned down other bookings and may well have plans for the money he was to receive for his time (he might even be reliant upon the money). Unless he's buying in props and stuff, then his fees will have all been profit. If he had to hire sound equipment, then its likely that the company he's hiring from will impose cancellation fees to him as well and could end up out of pocket.
Problem is that these types of deals are normally cash and informal. I doubt there is a contract or any T&Cs anywhere. So, it comes down to the will of the PTA to compensate him or not. From his perspective, pushing aggressively for it will not ingratiate himself with the PTA (or others that may have need for an Entertainer in the future) in regards to future bookings.
As you might imagine, I'm on the side of the Entertainer. Bottom line is that it was not his fault that the event got binned so why should he be penalised? The PTA loose out on a a bit of fundraising. He could be loosing out on his rent, food, etc.
I'd fully support the DJ personally.
It's great that your partner volunteers for the PTA. I also do plenty of volunteering that I find really enjoyable, but the key thing to remember is that whilst we're volunteering for what we think of as a good cause with no expectation or desire for financial compensation, for the DJ, it's his livelihood!
Ask yourself this... If your work suddenly told you that for whatever reason they didn't need you for a few days, so were going to cut your salary this month by £300, would you be able to just shrug it off and not notice the difference?
The question of whether he would've made £150 in profit is a red herring to my mind. He might've paid off all his equipment, he might not, but unless he's also DJing to crowds of thousands in Ibiza or wherever the youth of today like to hang out, I can't imagine that a mobile DJ earns that much, so you've still put a fairly chunky hit in his wallet...
I'd see it differently if the DJ also had kids at the school, but assuming he didn't, then even if there isn't a contract in place, I'd say that the decent thing to do would be to pay up with an apology for messing him around.
It's great that your partner volunteers for the PTA. I also do plenty of volunteering that I find really enjoyable, but the key thing to remember is that whilst we're volunteering for what we think of as a good cause with no expectation or desire for financial compensation, for the DJ, it's his livelihood!
Ask yourself this... If your work suddenly told you that for whatever reason they didn't need you for a few days, so were going to cut your salary this month by £300, would you be able to just shrug it off and not notice the difference?
The question of whether he would've made £150 in profit is a red herring to my mind. He might've paid off all his equipment, he might not, but unless he's also DJing to crowds of thousands in Ibiza or wherever the youth of today like to hang out, I can't imagine that a mobile DJ earns that much, so you've still put a fairly chunky hit in his wallet...
I'd see it differently if the DJ also had kids at the school, but assuming he didn't, then even if there isn't a contract in place, I'd say that the decent thing to do would be to pay up with an apology for messing him around.
sunnygym said:
Read the contract. If there isn’t one tell him to get lost.
Er, no.There is a contract and its terms do not appear to be in dispute - he was to get £300 for the night. If the PTA have chosen to cancel the event, that is their choice and does not affect the agreement they have with him.
Technically, his damages are represented by the profit he would have made, so asking for £150 seems more than likely very fair to the PTA (indeed generous).
oscmax said:
Er, no.
There is a contract and its terms do not appear to be in dispute - he was to get £300 for the night. If the PTA have chosen to cancel the event, that is their choice and does not affect the agreement they have with him.
Technically, his damages are represented by the profit he would have made, so asking for £150 seems more than likely very fair to the PTA (indeed generous).
I'm struggling to wrap my head around that...There is a contract and its terms do not appear to be in dispute - he was to get £300 for the night. If the PTA have chosen to cancel the event, that is their choice and does not affect the agreement they have with him.
Technically, his damages are represented by the profit he would have made, so asking for £150 seems more than likely very fair to the PTA (indeed generous).
Let's say he had paid off absolutely all of his gear, and only has travel & admin costs of £20. He's making £280 in profit, so you'd say his damages would've been £280?
If, on the other hand, he'd signed up to a Brighthouse/Mafia style deal to buy his equipment which costs him £280 a day, leaving him only £20 in profits, you're suggesting that his damages would only be £20?
To my mind, it would be reasonable for him to be compensated to the extent that he's making the same profit as if he'd carried out the job, so his compensation should be everything he would've earned, less any costs such as transport costs which he no longer has to incur?
50% seems fair to me....
I BBQ professionally as a hobby, and regularly do school fetes etc. My cancellation charges work on a sliding scale, depending on how close to the event they cancel.
Two months prior to the event - I retain the deposit (10%) which is non-refundable
Two weeks prior to the event - 50%
One week prior to the event - 100%
I work on the basis that at two months, it has probably cost me a couple of hours (planning meeting to discuss menu etc). Two weeks prior to the event, I have arranged staff, and any meat which requires ageing such as a brisket, will be bought and paid for. One week prior to the event, equipment is prepped, and all meat is ordered with the butcher, if not collected.
I BBQ professionally as a hobby, and regularly do school fetes etc. My cancellation charges work on a sliding scale, depending on how close to the event they cancel.
Two months prior to the event - I retain the deposit (10%) which is non-refundable
Two weeks prior to the event - 50%
One week prior to the event - 100%
I work on the basis that at two months, it has probably cost me a couple of hours (planning meeting to discuss menu etc). Two weeks prior to the event, I have arranged staff, and any meat which requires ageing such as a brisket, will be bought and paid for. One week prior to the event, equipment is prepped, and all meat is ordered with the butcher, if not collected.
Dr Interceptor said:
50% seems fair to me....
I BBQ professionally as a hobby, and regularly do school fetes etc. My cancellation charges work on a sliding scale, depending on how close to the event they cancel.
Two months prior to the event - I retain the deposit (10%) which is non-refundable
Two weeks prior to the event - 50%
One week prior to the event - 100%
I work on the basis that at two months, it has probably cost me a couple of hours (planning meeting to discuss menu etc). Two weeks prior to the event, I have arranged staff, and any meat which requires ageing such as a brisket, will be bought and paid for. One week prior to the event, equipment is prepped, and all meat is ordered with the butcher, if not collected.
Bit fairer than 50% cancellation fee for the DJs costs of which he arguably incurred none as he's not doing the gig.I BBQ professionally as a hobby, and regularly do school fetes etc. My cancellation charges work on a sliding scale, depending on how close to the event they cancel.
Two months prior to the event - I retain the deposit (10%) which is non-refundable
Two weeks prior to the event - 50%
One week prior to the event - 100%
I work on the basis that at two months, it has probably cost me a couple of hours (planning meeting to discuss menu etc). Two weeks prior to the event, I have arranged staff, and any meat which requires ageing such as a brisket, will be bought and paid for. One week prior to the event, equipment is prepped, and all meat is ordered with the butcher, if not collected.
But then no one is going to waive the fees even if they find an alternative gig. It's just an extra 50% profit minus the aggro of finding a new job.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all. As has been said, he was promised £300 for doing his job, the PTA have cancelled on him so he's now not going to be earning the money he was promised. Try and think how you would feel (as someone else said) if your employer told you out of the blue that you weren't needed for a day so they would pay you £300 less, I don't think anyone would be happy and just lay down and take it.
Kermit power said:
oscmax said:
Er, no.
There is a contract and its terms do not appear to be in dispute - he was to get £300 for the night. If the PTA have chosen to cancel the event, that is their choice and does not affect the agreement they have with him.
Technically, his damages are represented by the profit he would have made, so asking for £150 seems more than likely very fair to the PTA (indeed generous).
I'm struggling to wrap my head around that...There is a contract and its terms do not appear to be in dispute - he was to get £300 for the night. If the PTA have chosen to cancel the event, that is their choice and does not affect the agreement they have with him.
Technically, his damages are represented by the profit he would have made, so asking for £150 seems more than likely very fair to the PTA (indeed generous).
Let's say he had paid off absolutely all of his gear, and only has travel & admin costs of £20. He's making £280 in profit, so you'd say his damages would've been £280?
If, on the other hand, he'd signed up to a Brighthouse/Mafia style deal to buy his equipment which costs him £280 a day, leaving him only £20 in profits, you're suggesting that his damages would only be £20?
To my mind, it would be reasonable for him to be compensated to the extent that he's making the same profit as if he'd carried out the job, so his compensation should be everything he would've earned, less any costs such as transport costs which he no longer has to incur?
The Brighthouse example is not quite right, simply because if he was on a deal paying (say £280) a day in any event, that expense would have been payable by him in any event - it is not a cost of doing the job (ie performing under the contract) in the way that his travel would have been.
R Mutt said:
Dr Interceptor said:
50% seems fair to me....
I BBQ professionally as a hobby, and regularly do school fetes etc. My cancellation charges work on a sliding scale, depending on how close to the event they cancel.
Two months prior to the event - I retain the deposit (10%) which is non-refundable
Two weeks prior to the event - 50%
One week prior to the event - 100%
I work on the basis that at two months, it has probably cost me a couple of hours (planning meeting to discuss menu etc). Two weeks prior to the event, I have arranged staff, and any meat which requires ageing such as a brisket, will be bought and paid for. One week prior to the event, equipment is prepped, and all meat is ordered with the butcher, if not collected.
Bit fairer than 50% cancellation fee for the DJs costs of which he arguably incurred none as he's not doing the gig.I BBQ professionally as a hobby, and regularly do school fetes etc. My cancellation charges work on a sliding scale, depending on how close to the event they cancel.
Two months prior to the event - I retain the deposit (10%) which is non-refundable
Two weeks prior to the event - 50%
One week prior to the event - 100%
I work on the basis that at two months, it has probably cost me a couple of hours (planning meeting to discuss menu etc). Two weeks prior to the event, I have arranged staff, and any meat which requires ageing such as a brisket, will be bought and paid for. One week prior to the event, equipment is prepped, and all meat is ordered with the butcher, if not collected.
But then no one is going to waive the fees even if they find an alternative gig. It's just an extra 50% profit minus the aggro of finding a new job.
Profits are irrelevant. His fee is his fee.
How many gigs has he turned down because you booked him for that date first? He’s acted in good faith and was willing to provide the services requested. You reneged on the deal so it’s only right you pay him. 50% doesn’t seem extortionate.
If he manages to get another gig for that night then he’s done well for the evening, if he doesn’t then he’s had a bad night but in any case it’s not your business how he manages his diary.
Should have pushed those tickets a little harder...
How many gigs has he turned down because you booked him for that date first? He’s acted in good faith and was willing to provide the services requested. You reneged on the deal so it’s only right you pay him. 50% doesn’t seem extortionate.
If he manages to get another gig for that night then he’s done well for the evening, if he doesn’t then he’s had a bad night but in any case it’s not your business how he manages his diary.
Should have pushed those tickets a little harder...
R Mutt said:
Bit fairer than 50% cancellation fee for the DJs costs of which he arguably incurred none as he's not doing the gig.
He certainly has incurred costs.I have around £6ks' worth of gear that I've amassed over the years as well as making sure I have all the latest music available (that I have to physically buy because the DJ software won't process streamed music and is in anycase not always reliable). Admittedly, these are 'sunk' costs and made on the basis that I will get bookings to recover the outlay but to say the DJ has no costs is way wide of the mark.
R Mutt said:
Bit fairer than 50% cancellation fee for the DJs costs of which he arguably incurred none as he's not doing the gig.
Are you employed by someone? If so, as your boss I've decided I don't need you on Monday so I'm docking you a day's salary. You haven't lost anything as you hadn't done the work, you can just go and work somewhere else for a day.
Oh it's too short notice to find other work? You are £200 down on your salary for the month? Oh well.
(Yes, I am playing devils advocate, but think it through.)
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