Discussion
Is this an intangible sentiment inextricable from Nationalism that only your average Brexiteer might subscribe to, or do they genuinely not 'make em like they used to' etc?
I won't say that we the Brits necessarily made a higher quality product (although houses are one example which are now inferior for whatever reason) but globalisation means that you can't even rely on mass produced items from once respected brands (Levis a notable example of something they definitely don't make like they used to). While on the other hand you're better off with countless Japanese products.
I'm too young to have sneered at Made in Taiwan labels when the Far East first emerged as an major exporter but very much of the era where I am buying cheap tat from China which as established in its own PH thread is widely accepted to be cheap inferior tat.
Respect and manners are the other things alleged to have declined but again it's seen as very Daily Mail to bemoan this lest you cite the breakdown of communities.
I won't say that we the Brits necessarily made a higher quality product (although houses are one example which are now inferior for whatever reason) but globalisation means that you can't even rely on mass produced items from once respected brands (Levis a notable example of something they definitely don't make like they used to). While on the other hand you're better off with countless Japanese products.
I'm too young to have sneered at Made in Taiwan labels when the Far East first emerged as an major exporter but very much of the era where I am buying cheap tat from China which as established in its own PH thread is widely accepted to be cheap inferior tat.
Respect and manners are the other things alleged to have declined but again it's seen as very Daily Mail to bemoan this lest you cite the breakdown of communities.
In my opinion, most of the Brexiteer nostalgia you mention is related to a mis-understanding of how manufacturing works now. Contrary to popular belief, we still make quite a lot of things in the UK, both on a large scale (for example Airbus wings, RR jet engines, Mini cars) and a small scale (for example motorsport: my phone contacts list is full of one man companies that make obscure bits and bobs for racing cars) it's just that these days the UK tends to be a cog in a large machine, not the whole machine. That's just how the world works these days.
As an example, look at Mini cars that I mentioned: the crankshafts are cast in France, then come to the UK for machining in Warwickshire, then they're sent to Munich for insertion into the engine, then the engine returns to the UK where it's installed in the car. That's the best way of doing things. In this manner, the EU is a family of nations that works together; competing against other large trading nations and groups of nations. Nostalgia for the time when BL made everything under one roof is very nice for bar-room banter, but that business model simply doesn't work these days. As an analogy, imagine running a company with 1970s office tech (i.e. no computer and lots of paper) in 2019; it's possible, but you just wouldn't compete with other companies that have computers - the world has changed.
As a final note, I don't think the world has changed for the worst in these areas I've discussed above. The small companies making motorsport bits that I mentioned still exist, and once inside many of their premises I could be back in the 80s as a child with my Dad visiting such places - it's like time has stood still. However, the big scale stuff like Airbus just works really well - huge corporations are very successful with their cross-nation manufacturing and they and their employees pay a lot of tax into the system, which benefits us directly and keeps our tax bills low. I like a nice carb-fed engine in a classic as much as the next guy, but as an A to B tool to do a job for someone who isn't mechanically minded, a modern Mini is a world apart from a 1970s BL Mini, and that modern car is a product of modern manufacturing. Furthermore, to return to your mention of Brexit, the EU membership fee as a percentage of GDP is tiny, but the benefits, by even the most pessimistic measures, more than pay for it, even just for the manufacturing sectors I've mentioned.
As an example, look at Mini cars that I mentioned: the crankshafts are cast in France, then come to the UK for machining in Warwickshire, then they're sent to Munich for insertion into the engine, then the engine returns to the UK where it's installed in the car. That's the best way of doing things. In this manner, the EU is a family of nations that works together; competing against other large trading nations and groups of nations. Nostalgia for the time when BL made everything under one roof is very nice for bar-room banter, but that business model simply doesn't work these days. As an analogy, imagine running a company with 1970s office tech (i.e. no computer and lots of paper) in 2019; it's possible, but you just wouldn't compete with other companies that have computers - the world has changed.
As a final note, I don't think the world has changed for the worst in these areas I've discussed above. The small companies making motorsport bits that I mentioned still exist, and once inside many of their premises I could be back in the 80s as a child with my Dad visiting such places - it's like time has stood still. However, the big scale stuff like Airbus just works really well - huge corporations are very successful with their cross-nation manufacturing and they and their employees pay a lot of tax into the system, which benefits us directly and keeps our tax bills low. I like a nice carb-fed engine in a classic as much as the next guy, but as an A to B tool to do a job for someone who isn't mechanically minded, a modern Mini is a world apart from a 1970s BL Mini, and that modern car is a product of modern manufacturing. Furthermore, to return to your mention of Brexit, the EU membership fee as a percentage of GDP is tiny, but the benefits, by even the most pessimistic measures, more than pay for it, even just for the manufacturing sectors I've mentioned.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 30th September 12:10
eybic said:
Pothole said:
RobM77 said:
In my opinion, most of the Brexiteer nostalgia you mention...
Except that he didn't?
Yep! I was replying directly to the OP's post, which when I posted was the only post on this thread and it asked whether Brexiteer nostalgia is misguided or not. If Pothole would like me to talk about something else then I'm very happy to.Pothole said:
eybic said:
Pothole said:
RobM77 said:
In my opinion, most of the Brexiteer nostalgia you mention...
Except that he didn't?eybic said:
Pothole said:
RobM77 said:
In my opinion, most of the Brexiteer nostalgia you mention...
Except that he didn't?R Mutt said:
Is this an intangible sentiment inextricable from Nationalism that only your average Brexiteer might subscribe to, or do they genuinely not 'make em like they used to' etc?
I'm too young to have sneered at Made in Taiwan labels when the Far East first emerged as an major exporter but very much of the era where I am buying cheap tat from China which as established in its own PH thread is widely accepted to be cheap inferior tat.
A mixture of pessimism with (a) general trends in society, (b) changing norms, and (c) a romantic view of the past that never really existed c.f. Morrissey.I'm too young to have sneered at Made in Taiwan labels when the Far East first emerged as an major exporter but very much of the era where I am buying cheap tat from China which as established in its own PH thread is widely accepted to be cheap inferior tat.
In terms of manufacturing and quality, people are still anchored to old and outdated beliefs that are no longer true (re: Chinese inferior tat). The Chinese still do produce tat, but they have also moved up the value chain. Take a look at Xiaomi and others who are providing high quality electronics (mobile handsets, house-hold robotics, electric scooters, etc), at a competitive price with good customer service. I have a MI 8 handset that has replaced my Samsung (Korean) Galaxy 6.
As an example of trading on the name i.e. reduction in quality, see Churches shoes. You only have to look at the parent company [Prada] to realise the change in direction and demographics.
There are a couple of areas where there are deliberate design / cost-cutting choices which are not improvements e.g. modern new builds [housing], electrical devices (built-in obsolesce), etc.
That said, we are living in an era [UK] of low unemployment and low inflation; there are a lot of other metrics that have substantially improved since the 60s re: reduction in poverty, reduction in child mortality, etc. Check out Hans Rosling's TED talk on the subject, which focuses heavily on how real data is often dramatically different to people's preconceptions.
On a personal level, you can keep your nostalgia, and I can keep streaming Japanese gang-bang action on demand.
As we get older we see and understand more, so we remember less.
I get Nostlagic about visiting Blackpool, as a kid it was all fun, lights, smells, noise and excitement, now I am 48 I will see it as a bit threatening being full of pissed up halfwits on Stag dos, full of deprivation, cheap s
te and trying to extract every penny.
Also, human memory plays tricks, tend to remember the good bits and the past becomes a cosy place, the future is unknown and a bit scary plus the current is familiar and available.
Ever noticed you get nostaligic about stuff you were either ambivalent about or didnt like at the time, certain songs used to set my teeth on edge, "I love your smile" by Shanice, used to make me shudder as it was on all the time and its st, came on the radio the other day and I basked in a lovely warm nostalgia, but it wasnt for the song really it was about being 20, which at the time probably wasnt all that great as I was skint most of the time.
Nostalgia is nice, and some things were better in the past but a lot of older folk love to wallow and tell you how its st now and nobody could possibly enjoy life as much as they did, could go out and get hammered for 2 and six, and get fish and chips on the way home, in newspaper ! and that fish and chips will always taste better than what you can get now. Smartphones and computers are the work of the devil, missing the irony by posting on Facebook...
I get told that nobody makes cars as well as Ford did in the sixties and seventies, not like that new plastic stuff, forgetting that most were rotting in holes by five years old, they had good points borne of simplicity and some nice designs but lets not get carried away, you have an affinity and connection with something, dont need to say everything else is rubbish and be completely closed minded and dogmatic.
I do think a lot miss say the fifties, but they were young then, the war was over and things were changing, the country was largely white, it was a simpler time, things werent perfect by any means but they dont see or remember the bad bits. I think some did vote for Brexit with that feeling, before the EU, those people have seen mass immigration and generally arent keen, even if they have never actually been wronged.
I like a bit of Nostalgia, but you cant go back, try to occasionally and enjoy it for what it is but recognise it as a bit of an affectation, a quirk of the human brain.
I get Nostlagic about visiting Blackpool, as a kid it was all fun, lights, smells, noise and excitement, now I am 48 I will see it as a bit threatening being full of pissed up halfwits on Stag dos, full of deprivation, cheap s
te and trying to extract every penny.Also, human memory plays tricks, tend to remember the good bits and the past becomes a cosy place, the future is unknown and a bit scary plus the current is familiar and available.
Ever noticed you get nostaligic about stuff you were either ambivalent about or didnt like at the time, certain songs used to set my teeth on edge, "I love your smile" by Shanice, used to make me shudder as it was on all the time and its s
t, came on the radio the other day and I basked in a lovely warm nostalgia, but it wasnt for the song really it was about being 20, which at the time probably wasnt all that great as I was skint most of the time.Nostalgia is nice, and some things were better in the past but a lot of older folk love to wallow and tell you how its s
t now and nobody could possibly enjoy life as much as they did, could go out and get hammered for 2 and six, and get fish and chips on the way home, in newspaper ! and that fish and chips will always taste better than what you can get now. Smartphones and computers are the work of the devil, missing the irony by posting on Facebook...I get told that nobody makes cars as well as Ford did in the sixties and seventies, not like that new plastic stuff, forgetting that most were rotting in holes by five years old, they had good points borne of simplicity and some nice designs but lets not get carried away, you have an affinity and connection with something, dont need to say everything else is rubbish and be completely closed minded and dogmatic.
I do think a lot miss say the fifties, but they were young then, the war was over and things were changing, the country was largely white, it was a simpler time, things werent perfect by any means but they dont see or remember the bad bits. I think some did vote for Brexit with that feeling, before the EU, those people have seen mass immigration and generally arent keen, even if they have never actually been wronged.
I like a bit of Nostalgia, but you cant go back, try to occasionally and enjoy it for what it is but recognise it as a bit of an affectation, a quirk of the human brain.
For Nostalgia nothing better than Talking Pictures TV
watching episodes of Scotland Yard introduced by one of the worlds foremost authorities on criminal and crime - Edgar Lustgarten
heroic and well groomed Police Oficers portrayed by stiff upper lip actors. A long way removed from some of the bone idle excuse ridden lazy civil liberated to their eyeballs wasters that pop up elsewhere on here claiming to be part of the judiciary. I have my doubts I think some are fantasists who got no further than being school prefects.
Then there are the cars only yesterday I saw one where a man had his Vauxhall Cresta modified to become very fast. so fast that it outran a police vehicle. Fortunately that case was soon solved
Then for reassurance that things really were better I can look on BBC Parliament and see interesting articles about the formation of the SDP
There is nothing wrong with nostalgia and there is nothing wrong if you do believe that things were better way back when
watching episodes of Scotland Yard introduced by one of the worlds foremost authorities on criminal and crime - Edgar Lustgarten
heroic and well groomed Police Oficers portrayed by stiff upper lip actors. A long way removed from some of the bone idle excuse ridden lazy civil liberated to their eyeballs wasters that pop up elsewhere on here claiming to be part of the judiciary. I have my doubts I think some are fantasists who got no further than being school prefects.
Then there are the cars only yesterday I saw one where a man had his Vauxhall Cresta modified to become very fast. so fast that it outran a police vehicle. Fortunately that case was soon solved
Then for reassurance that things really were better I can look on BBC Parliament and see interesting articles about the formation of the SDP
There is nothing wrong with nostalgia and there is nothing wrong if you do believe that things were better way back when
I had a visit to Stoke today on works business. Felt like the 1980s at best.
Work trip deteriorated to only 1980s music or before. 1980s language including now PC banned expressions and resulted in a nice little earner of a job. At the end when we were discussing some documents "Can you had those over in MS Office 2003, we haven't updated yet!".
Well a bit of a move on from the 1980s, just making it into this millennium.
And very weird, as another poster says, things I thought crap 40 50 years ago, I sometimes sort of quite like. Music tunes especially. Absolutely hated the Beatles growing up, literally cheered when Lennon was shot dead and McCartney FO'd to the MOK. Now, I prefer them over the Stones.
Work trip deteriorated to only 1980s music or before. 1980s language including now PC banned expressions and resulted in a nice little earner of a job. At the end when we were discussing some documents "Can you had those over in MS Office 2003, we haven't updated yet!".
Well a bit of a move on from the 1980s, just making it into this millennium.
And very weird, as another poster says, things I thought crap 40 50 years ago, I sometimes sort of quite like. Music tunes especially. Absolutely hated the Beatles growing up, literally cheered when Lennon was shot dead and McCartney FO'd to the MOK. Now, I prefer them over the Stones.
RobM77 said:
As an example, look at Mini cars that I mentioned: the crankshafts are cast in France, then come to the UK for machining in Warwickshire, then they're sent to Munich for insertion into the engine, then the engine returns to the UK where it's installed in the car. That's the best way of doing things.
All those miles and time in transit cost money and add nothing to the finished product. The logistics headaches are massively reduced when all the major manufacturing processes are within a mile or so of each other, as Ford Dagenham used to be. It only needs a fire in the channel tunnel or a strike somewhere to bring a 'just in time' line to a halt.Edited by GliderRider on Wednesday 2nd October 22:12
OP - Nostalgia becomes more prevalent the older you get, I'm afraid. You look back through polarised memories which filter out the bad stuff and retain the good.
The 70s, for example, was a period of industrial unrest, civil unrest, strikes, power cuts, little money, social norms which are unacceptable by today's standards, etc, etc - but I still recall the 70s with great fondness, despite the fact that life is far more comfortable and easier now than it was then.
I don't think things were necessarily better in the past, but as you get older society seems to move faster than you do, so you retreat back to a time when things were easier to understand and you felt more in control.
You'll feel exactly the same in 40 years....
The 70s, for example, was a period of industrial unrest, civil unrest, strikes, power cuts, little money, social norms which are unacceptable by today's standards, etc, etc - but I still recall the 70s with great fondness, despite the fact that life is far more comfortable and easier now than it was then.
I don't think things were necessarily better in the past, but as you get older society seems to move faster than you do, so you retreat back to a time when things were easier to understand and you felt more in control.
You'll feel exactly the same in 40 years....
Mort7 said:
OP - Nostalgia becomes more prevalent the older you get, I'm afraid. You look back through polarised memories which filter out the bad stuff and retain the good.
The 70s, for example, was a period of industrial unrest, civil unrest, strikes, power cuts, little money, social norms which are unacceptable by today's standards, etc, etc - but I still recall the 70s with great fondness, despite the fact that life is far more comfortable and easier now than it was then.
I don't think things were necessarily better in the past, but as you get older society seems to move faster than you do, so you retreat back to a time when things were easier to understand and you felt more in control.
You'll feel exactly the same in 40 years....
To use an analogy, we tend to remember great parties but rarely the hangovers. We recall wonderful holidays and the places we visited but not the seat number on the plane or the five hour delays at the airports or lost baggage. The 70s, for example, was a period of industrial unrest, civil unrest, strikes, power cuts, little money, social norms which are unacceptable by today's standards, etc, etc - but I still recall the 70s with great fondness, despite the fact that life is far more comfortable and easier now than it was then.
I don't think things were necessarily better in the past, but as you get older society seems to move faster than you do, so you retreat back to a time when things were easier to understand and you felt more in control.
You'll feel exactly the same in 40 years....
Our minds have a habit of dispensing with the naff leaving only the good. This, on the whole, is not a bad thing but it can lead to a distorted view of the past which can limit appreciation of the here and now.
GliderRider said:
RobM77 said:
As an example, look at Mini cars that I mentioned: the crankshafts are cast in France, then come to the UK for machining in Warwickshire, then they're sent to Munich for insertion into the engine, then the engine returns to the UK where it's installed in the car. That's the best way of doing things.
All those miles and time in transit cost money and add nothing to the finished product. The logistics headaches are massively reduced when all the major manufacturing processes are within a mile or so of each other, as Ford Dagenham used to be. It only needs a fire in the channel tunnel or a strike somewhere to bring a 'just in time' line to a halt.Edited by GliderRider on Wednesday 2nd October 22:12
GliderRider said:
RobM77 said:
As an example, look at Mini cars that I mentioned: the crankshafts are cast in France, then come to the UK for machining in Warwickshire, then they're sent to Munich for insertion into the engine, then the engine returns to the UK where it's installed in the car. That's the best way of doing things.
All those miles and time in transit cost money and add nothing to the finished product. The logistics headaches are massively reduced when all the major manufacturing processes are within a mile or so of each other, as Ford Dagenham used to be. It only needs a fire in the channel tunnel or a strike somewhere to bring a 'just in time' line to a halt.Edited by GliderRider on Wednesday 2nd October 22:12
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