Are modern grammar schools like free public schools?
Discussion
My wife has had the idea that in a couple of years we will move to an area within the Buckingham/Berkshire grammar school catchment areas. She thinks our kids will easily pass the 11+ and - if admitted - they will effectively get a free education to public school standard. Assuming the children are bright enough she will have them tutored to get good marks in the test. They just skipped year two to enter year three from year one (she coached them for this, which I supported). I'd rather stay in London and send them to private school.
Are modern grammar schools like free public schools, and if so how competitive is it to get in?
Are modern grammar schools like free public schools, and if so how competitive is it to get in?
Reading has two grammar schools, and the competition for places is fierce. The really really smart kids get in anyway, and then there's a huge number of other applicants who are just smart, most of whom are going to be disappointed. I think a lot of kids get pushed very hard by their parents, and not sure this is always a good thing.
nsa said:
Are modern grammar schools like free public schools?
They often do as well academically. But they can never compete on facilities (sports fields, halls, class sizes etc). There's also the "special twinkle" that private schools give you, which Giles Coren attempted to explain a few years ago.https://pcwatch.blogspot.com/2010/05/humourist-gil...
nsa said:
and how competitive are they?
In a word, bloody competitive. I went to a grammar when I was a kid, and the competition has definitely hotted up in the last 30 years. Many parents will spend money on tuition for their kids.We have grammars in our area (East Surrey) and I will probably put my two boys forward for the 11 plus. Grammars are a good option for bright kids, but I'm not kidding myself that they're a free version of a good public school.
A few points.....
1. A really good grammar school will often get better results than a ‘low end’ independent school.
2. Money alone won’t get you into an independent. The kids will also have to sit the Common Entrance exam. Based on results, some independent schools will take them, others won’t.
3. If they’re currently in state primary, you need a plan for 11 - 13. Most (not all) independent senior schools cover ages 13 - 18. Independent prep schools cover 5 - 13. Ideally, you’d move them out of state and to a prep school at of before age 11 to get them ready for the Common Entrance Exam.
1. A really good grammar school will often get better results than a ‘low end’ independent school.
2. Money alone won’t get you into an independent. The kids will also have to sit the Common Entrance exam. Based on results, some independent schools will take them, others won’t.
3. If they’re currently in state primary, you need a plan for 11 - 13. Most (not all) independent senior schools cover ages 13 - 18. Independent prep schools cover 5 - 13. Ideally, you’d move them out of state and to a prep school at of before age 11 to get them ready for the Common Entrance Exam.
Back in the 90s when I went to grammar school, the kids who couldn't pass the 11+ went to the local private school. Ours was, however, an exceptional school. The 'Old Boys' network has on occasion been useful.
As our year was leaving, having had the whole 'Things can only get better' election and a softening of standards, they introduced remedial English and Maths sessions.
I don't know if it's the same today, but that was the most obvious damage to our education system that I've ever witnessed in my time.
This proved to me beyond any doubt that selective entry, tiered education is not elitist, but necessary to retain high standards.
As our year was leaving, having had the whole 'Things can only get better' election and a softening of standards, they introduced remedial English and Maths sessions.
I don't know if it's the same today, but that was the most obvious damage to our education system that I've ever witnessed in my time.
This proved to me beyond any doubt that selective entry, tiered education is not elitist, but necessary to retain high standards.
Does the OP really mean public school (which is a specific and legally defined term) or does he mean independent day school or bog standard boarding school?
I'm assuming the comparator is independent day school in which case the answer is maybe and up to a point.
Needless to say grammars vary enormously as do independent day schools but the best grammars are likely to be reasonably similar at an academic level to all but the very best of the independents.
That said, if these things matter, they are socially several cuts lower (even in these days of widespread bursaries) - the scholarship boy at an independent school is part, if not a full part, of the network for the whole of his life. Even more so if at public school.
But I can't think of a grammar that comes close to Harrow or Charterhouse in terms of facilities, external opportunities and even the range of the syllabus, let alone the alumnus network.
I'm assuming the comparator is independent day school in which case the answer is maybe and up to a point.
Needless to say grammars vary enormously as do independent day schools but the best grammars are likely to be reasonably similar at an academic level to all but the very best of the independents.
That said, if these things matter, they are socially several cuts lower (even in these days of widespread bursaries) - the scholarship boy at an independent school is part, if not a full part, of the network for the whole of his life. Even more so if at public school.
But I can't think of a grammar that comes close to Harrow or Charterhouse in terms of facilities, external opportunities and even the range of the syllabus, let alone the alumnus network.
The application process to get into private schools in London is ludicrously competitive, and getting worse. You won’t find a single child now who doesn’t have a private tutor. The pressure on the children is frightening. Even if your children are bright you still need a tutor to help them prepare for what to expect in the 11+
There is only a handful of schools that aren’t selective, or where the selection criteria are more realistic. However, these schools are often no more than a holding pen for children of media stars, hedge fund managers or pop stars. The standard of education in some of these schools is no better than state schools, possibly worse in some cases. But at least your children will be hanging out with kids of oligarchs and tv stars. If you want to go for something more serious, such as Highgate or City for Boys/Girls, then I’m afraid you’ll need to play the game like everyone else.
Unfortunately things are escalating rapidly. The schools are forever trying to improve GCSE and A-level results for marketing purposes, so need to entice smarter children at intake. Consequently, the 11+ is getting harder and harder. It’s a crazy game that’s now out of control but no-one dares stop playing.
If you have a choice I’d move out of London and find a good grammar or private school where you’re not forced to employ a tutor twice a week to get through the intake exams.
Good luck!
There is only a handful of schools that aren’t selective, or where the selection criteria are more realistic. However, these schools are often no more than a holding pen for children of media stars, hedge fund managers or pop stars. The standard of education in some of these schools is no better than state schools, possibly worse in some cases. But at least your children will be hanging out with kids of oligarchs and tv stars. If you want to go for something more serious, such as Highgate or City for Boys/Girls, then I’m afraid you’ll need to play the game like everyone else.
Unfortunately things are escalating rapidly. The schools are forever trying to improve GCSE and A-level results for marketing purposes, so need to entice smarter children at intake. Consequently, the 11+ is getting harder and harder. It’s a crazy game that’s now out of control but no-one dares stop playing.
If you have a choice I’d move out of London and find a good grammar or private school where you’re not forced to employ a tutor twice a week to get through the intake exams.
Good luck!
I went to a Grammar for 6th form (post a dodgy Comp’) and so thought it might be an idea for my beloved offspring.
They don’t seem the same tbh - have now become academic hothouses that are hyper-competitive to get into (unless you live next door), rather stressed and, tbh, all rather nervy and anxiety driven.
I’ve buried my (rapidly fading) socialist roots and they both go to good quality private (one public) schools. They get the same results but in a much better, rounded, way and get to do loads of other things to a high level as well. They also manage the parents well and have met a few decent chums via the attendant social life.
Schools have moved on a lot but in some surprising ways.
I only really worry about whether the privilege will blunt their drive in life but they’ve got their miserable father to help with that!
They don’t seem the same tbh - have now become academic hothouses that are hyper-competitive to get into (unless you live next door), rather stressed and, tbh, all rather nervy and anxiety driven.
I’ve buried my (rapidly fading) socialist roots and they both go to good quality private (one public) schools. They get the same results but in a much better, rounded, way and get to do loads of other things to a high level as well. They also manage the parents well and have met a few decent chums via the attendant social life.
Schools have moved on a lot but in some surprising ways.
I only really worry about whether the privilege will blunt their drive in life but they’ve got their miserable father to help with that!
Baldchap said:
This proved to me beyond any doubt that selective entry, tiered education is not elitist, but necessary to retain high standards.
Proved beyond any doubt? Very few places in England have state grammar schools.
Selective grammar schools achieve high academic results, but there is little evidence that they "add value" to pupil's results.
Basing entry solely on a single 3 hour exam at the age of 10/11, with many pupils (who have parents that can afford the fees and time) having been tutored fairly intensively, is not a good method of selection.
There is a massive range of private schools.
Some are far more selective than others.
Some have much greater demand for places.
Some have much higher academic standards.
Some are known as being for the wealthy but less able.
Some are still single sex.
Some have a 7 day week, some 6 and some 5.
There's no such thing as a real public school. They are all just private schools.
Some are far more selective than others.
Some have much greater demand for places.
Some have much higher academic standards.
Some are known as being for the wealthy but less able.
Some are still single sex.
Some have a 7 day week, some 6 and some 5.
There's no such thing as a real public school. They are all just private schools.
nsa said:
Independent day school. I think the children would love boarding school but I can't imagine not having them around for weeks at a time.
We felt the same as you but my son actually lobbied to be sent away at 13. There were exeats or half terms every three weeks or so and, after the first term, we could visit most weekends (if welcomed by the offspring!). My son felt that with busy weeks for parents and cross-London commuting to a day school, he would have less time and comfort than boarding.
But every child and parent is different.
nsa
Mrs Fox and i are of the bulge generation
Mum at home Dad worked, Nursery school was for the 3/5 yr olds Parents should be there for the kids no farming out so they can enjoy keeping up with the elevenerife set
Then Nursery school was decided We poo pood the idea until we saw it, there was no let them play togehter and them pm let them sleep. It was run like a small school, choices of dinner story telling etcand gave them a good start to primary. OK NurserySchoold now OK Year on in Primary,excellent teachers although parents left a lot to be desired. i am no way 'posh' but next to them....was told they are going private Oh NO.. until we saw what was on offer. The teaching is no different but can offer more time to each of them Out of school hours activities are boundless and the staff are just as enthusiastic but they have the money to back up the ideas. State scjools are hand to mouth. We are all for going private
Onlt thing is they just go up to 16 so a change to outside has to be done for A levels etc That is the only thing that usrprised me
Ours is on the Berks/Surrey linem, and i would recommend for anyone on here if you can pit the kids in a damn good Nursery school and then look for the same in a private one
Not ashamed to admit that my view has gone around 180 degrees. Give the kids the best you can, Not saying State Grammar is any less but the time for the kids is there with smaller classes
Mrs Fox and i are of the bulge generation
Mum at home Dad worked, Nursery school was for the 3/5 yr olds Parents should be there for the kids no farming out so they can enjoy keeping up with the elevenerife set
Then Nursery school was decided We poo pood the idea until we saw it, there was no let them play togehter and them pm let them sleep. It was run like a small school, choices of dinner story telling etcand gave them a good start to primary. OK NurserySchoold now OK Year on in Primary,excellent teachers although parents left a lot to be desired. i am no way 'posh' but next to them....was told they are going private Oh NO.. until we saw what was on offer. The teaching is no different but can offer more time to each of them Out of school hours activities are boundless and the staff are just as enthusiastic but they have the money to back up the ideas. State scjools are hand to mouth. We are all for going private
Onlt thing is they just go up to 16 so a change to outside has to be done for A levels etc That is the only thing that usrprised me
Ours is on the Berks/Surrey linem, and i would recommend for anyone on here if you can pit the kids in a damn good Nursery school and then look for the same in a private one
Not ashamed to admit that my view has gone around 180 degrees. Give the kids the best you can, Not saying State Grammar is any less but the time for the kids is there with smaller classes
Edited by silverfoxcc on Tuesday 22 September 08:53
MC Bodge said:
Baldchap said:
This proved to me beyond any doubt that selective entry, tiered education is not elitist, but necessary to retain high standards.
Proved beyond any doubt? Very few places in England have state grammar schools.
Selective grammar schools achieve high academic results, but there is little evidence that they "add value" to pupil's results.
Basing entry solely on a single 3 hour exam at the age of 10/11, with many pupils (who have parents that can afford the fees and time) having been tutored fairly intensively, is not a good method of selection.
Baldchap said:
MC Bodge said:
Baldchap said:
This proved to me beyond any doubt that selective entry, tiered education is not elitist, but necessary to retain high standards.
Proved beyond any doubt? Very few places in England have state grammar schools.
Selective grammar schools achieve high academic results, but there is little evidence that they "add value" to pupil's results.
Basing entry solely on a single 3 hour exam at the age of 10/11, with many pupils (who have parents that can afford the fees and time) having been tutored fairly intensively, is not a good method of selection.
Our two are currently in an independent prep school. They're both clearly intelligent, and have different strengths & weaknesses. The school has already recognised this, and is teaching them as individuals, not as just numbers in a big group. We're also fortunate to have a good range of independent senior schools in the area. I've got ambitions to send them here: https://concordcollegeuk.com/, although the entrance requirements for this one are tough. On the plus side, if they can get in it's barely 3km from home so they can go as day pupils.
Baldchap said:
Explain to me how a single educational tier can possibly teach the brightest children to make the most of their potential whilst at the same time teaching children who can just about count to potato without leaving them behind? Or should we teach all children to the lowest ability level in the school?
That is the opposite extreme to selective high schools. Believe it or not, and it may be difficult for those who didn't experience one, a comprehensive school does not just throw 1500 pupils into a pit and hope for the best.
Streaming within schools is entirely possible, with the opportunity for pupils to move between the streams. There is no need for social segregation based upon a 3 hour exam at the age of 10/11.
Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 22 September 09:29
My son went to a state school ( high school in Scotland , outside the main cities there’s only one so catchment areas don’t exist), but his two cousins of the same age went to a very expensive public school. Results, he got better highers and advanced highers, they all went to good universities and he’s now earning the most.
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