Why do we need 'Countries'?
Discussion
We're single species of many types all living on the same bit of rock. Birds can decide to head south when it gets a bit nippy. Other animals can scoot off somewhere else when food becomes a bit lean. Fish have no concept of EU or British waters.
Mankind on the other hand, seems to have made life a bit awkward by corralling ourselves into little pens and often thinking our pen is better than others or looking enviously at others.
Ignoring the historical pathway that has led to the existence of countries, if mankind started today but with the insight we have, would we create 'countries' in the way they are?
(For reference, I kind of know the answer but am extending a conversation I'm having with my daughter to get some fresh perspective. In English, I'm sort of loosing so looking for some new angles
)
Mankind on the other hand, seems to have made life a bit awkward by corralling ourselves into little pens and often thinking our pen is better than others or looking enviously at others.
Ignoring the historical pathway that has led to the existence of countries, if mankind started today but with the insight we have, would we create 'countries' in the way they are?
(For reference, I kind of know the answer but am extending a conversation I'm having with my daughter to get some fresh perspective. In English, I'm sort of loosing so looking for some new angles
)The only thing I can come up without deeply thinking about it is that you would end with the entire world population living in the same small parts with the best resources. Nobody would live in the rest?
Which I guess would lead to the resources being used up and our ultimate destruction? Countries spread us out.
This ignores cultural differences technology and globalisation. Assuming we are starting out with nothing.
This is probably totally wrong.
Which I guess would lead to the resources being used up and our ultimate destruction? Countries spread us out.
This ignores cultural differences technology and globalisation. Assuming we are starting out with nothing.
This is probably totally wrong.
Turn7 said:
slopes said:
Because humans are incredibly selfish, jealous, rather unintelligent creatures and rather than band together to build a better world for everyone, they would rather guard their prize instead and so countries become a thing
Yep..Greed basically.Scale it down and down and down.
You protect your family and your home, you then had a village where you protect your family and those around you from strangers, you then had regions, and then countries. We feel safer and arguably are.
Why do we need door and windows and locks?
It is in built in us to always be more concerned about the worst that can happen, it is a basic protection instinct, and probably a good thing we do have it.
Non-human animals have countries too. They just call them 'packs' or 'herds' or 'schools' or whatever. Or they would, if they could talk.
We're clever enough to draw maps. And clever enough to defend territory. And clever enough to work with other countries, for the most part, to our mutual benefit.
But in principle a country is just an extension of a family, and so the same protective instincts we have toward our families, we also have toward our country. Albeit diluted by scale.
I want good things and opportunities for my family, and to a degree if that means another family doesn't get those things, then, reluctantly, so be it.
Do you buy tickets for Alton Towers for your family, or for another family you don't know? The overall utility is the same, yet you're only interested in one of those options.
Yes there are exceptions, but that's the principle.
We're clever enough to draw maps. And clever enough to defend territory. And clever enough to work with other countries, for the most part, to our mutual benefit.
But in principle a country is just an extension of a family, and so the same protective instincts we have toward our families, we also have toward our country. Albeit diluted by scale.
I want good things and opportunities for my family, and to a degree if that means another family doesn't get those things, then, reluctantly, so be it.
Do you buy tickets for Alton Towers for your family, or for another family you don't know? The overall utility is the same, yet you're only interested in one of those options.
Yes there are exceptions, but that's the principle.
Edited by SpeckledJim on Friday 5th February 22:35
How did the title of this thread get past the swear filters?
horpe! 
Basically resources, whether that is soil for farming, forests for building, coal for power, water for drinking and irrigation etc, the world is not evenly distributed. The old world had empires fought over for resources, tea cotton, opium, slaves etc. Everyone wants to live in the best places with the best resources but not everyone is so fortunate, would someone in Norway give up their life to live in North Korea. Going back to basics, people settled in places with the best resources, somewhere in the past there were political lines drawn to create countries, empires come and go, religions and gods created, island nations cut off for eternity until sail boats where created, islands are natural countries in a sense.
America pre european invasion, the native Americans were made up of tribes and had their own land and distinct territory, most likely fought for over resources and likely cultural differences. Supply and demand dictated many of these constructs and procreation as important as that is would be more successfully with less competition and drains on resources, afterall we are animals. Modern countries borders are just a control method for taxes vs resource use, America is probably the greatest example of many countries with no borders, sometimes it works sometimes it's devided as we're seeing. The EU, we'll see if and how that pans out, people are tribal and they went back to their tribes when vaccines and ventilators where in short supply.
America pre european invasion, the native Americans were made up of tribes and had their own land and distinct territory, most likely fought for over resources and likely cultural differences. Supply and demand dictated many of these constructs and procreation as important as that is would be more successfully with less competition and drains on resources, afterall we are animals. Modern countries borders are just a control method for taxes vs resource use, America is probably the greatest example of many countries with no borders, sometimes it works sometimes it's devided as we're seeing. The EU, we'll see if and how that pans out, people are tribal and they went back to their tribes when vaccines and ventilators where in short supply.
What I find really odd is that the poorest country I have spend an extended period of time in, Vietnam, was the one that put up the most barriers to my entry. It’s certainly the only place that on entry asked me to prove I had a flight booked to leave.
I do think that if you just lump everything together, eventually you get a power group within that lump that takes over. If the Uighur still had Xinjang as a separate country they wouldn’t be corralled into rape camps, same with Tibet, how long till Tibet is populated by a majority of Han descent ?
Closer to home, I guess you could say the same of the welsh and a Irish.
I do think that if you just lump everything together, eventually you get a power group within that lump that takes over. If the Uighur still had Xinjang as a separate country they wouldn’t be corralled into rape camps, same with Tibet, how long till Tibet is populated by a majority of Han descent ?
Closer to home, I guess you could say the same of the welsh and a Irish.
It’s a natural instinct. Many wild animals exhibit the same tendencies, be it living in herds, packs, and in turn also fiercely defend their claimed territories. Big cats, Bears, Wolves, Primates, Birds, etc.
In short, countries are an advanced development of what is essentially a survival instinct. It’s hardwired into us.
In short, countries are an advanced development of what is essentially a survival instinct. It’s hardwired into us.
slopes said:
Because humans are incredibly selfish, jealous, rather unintelligent creatures and rather than band together to build a better world for everyone, they would rather guard their prize instead and so countries become a thing
They'd just as likely want to take other peoples prizes too. Why do you think people want to move from developing countries to developed countries?languagetimothy said:
I'm reading this. about historic and new borders. Yes, mostly politics, greed and of course religion ( often the funniest bits where the sub sections of one religion don't get on...good grief)
Good reading
That looks good, I’ll get that. A good one on a similar vein is Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari which explains it all very well (as well as the basics of how we got to where we are) and yes, the answer is tribalism, greed and religion mostly. Good reading
We instinctively trust those who look and act like us, and distrust those who don't. Society has moved us past that in many cases, but historically it has shaped the way different cultures have adapted to different geographic constraints. During our development we were as viciously territorial as any other animal, and if a shortage of food or water forced us into conflict with another tribe, then war or genocide was often the outcome.
Perhaps one day we can put that behind us and live as 'one people', but I honestly don't think this will happen for a long time, perhaps until we are a multi-planetary species, and then we will be united over our common mistrust of those pesky martians.
As usual, Tim Urban nails it with this Wait But Why post.
Perhaps one day we can put that behind us and live as 'one people', but I honestly don't think this will happen for a long time, perhaps until we are a multi-planetary species, and then we will be united over our common mistrust of those pesky martians.
As usual, Tim Urban nails it with this Wait But Why post.
languagetimothy said:
I'm reading this. about historic and new borders. Yes, mostly politics, greed and of course religion ( often the funniest bits where the sub sections of one religion don't get on...good grief)
Good reading
Looks good. I loved prisoners of geography and didn't realise this was out. Ordered. Good reading
I'm currently reading this, which is a more literary angle. Largely blames the printing press for a surge in nationalism, so I guess the update would be to point fingers at Facebook and social media...
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