Does free will exist?
Discussion
This is an interesting article
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/apr/27/the-c...
I tend towards the position that free will is a flawed concept. It is one that humans seem to understand intuitively - a bit like God - but something that doesn’t bear closer inspection.
Humans clearly make choices all the time. Those choices are not always conscious decisions ie made by the narrative running in your head but they are being made by you. I think part of the problem is that people tend to see a duality between their conscious existence (which is constructed by the body) and their own body, which is as much “them” as their consciousness.
Although we make choices those choices do seem constricted by our genetics and prior experience though. Does beg the question as to whether people are fully responsible for their actions. The case study referred to U.K. the article of a teacher who became a paedophile after developing a brain tumour (he returned to normal after surgery to remove the tumour but he lapsed when the tumour returned) seems to show that we aren’t fully masters of our own destiny.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/apr/27/the-c...
I tend towards the position that free will is a flawed concept. It is one that humans seem to understand intuitively - a bit like God - but something that doesn’t bear closer inspection.
Humans clearly make choices all the time. Those choices are not always conscious decisions ie made by the narrative running in your head but they are being made by you. I think part of the problem is that people tend to see a duality between their conscious existence (which is constructed by the body) and their own body, which is as much “them” as their consciousness.
Although we make choices those choices do seem constricted by our genetics and prior experience though. Does beg the question as to whether people are fully responsible for their actions. The case study referred to U.K. the article of a teacher who became a paedophile after developing a brain tumour (he returned to normal after surgery to remove the tumour but he lapsed when the tumour returned) seems to show that we aren’t fully masters of our own destiny.
Can't be bothered to read the article, but I imagine we'd agree on the flawed concept position. The thing we intuitively feel as "free will" is a useful idea that describes our everyday experience. We clearly weigh things up and make decisions. "Shall I crack open this bottle while the wife can see me?', for example.
Whether the underlying mechanisms that give rise to that behaviour are in fact entirely deterministic, meaning that the behaviour is itself deterministic, is actually irrelevant. Thinking it is relevant is the flawed idea.
The hoops people jump through to try to make human thought fundamentally indeterministic just so that some strong sense of free will is still a possibility are ... uhm ... bonkers. If a thinking thing is genuinely free to decide things fully independently of everything else in the universe, yet also based on previous experience and not just by choosing randomly ... then the thing doing reasoning can't be just a physical object. It has to be doing more than the things described by physics, so in that sense it is "supernatural". You might as well just say "and then a miracle happens" and I make a decision.
Whether the underlying mechanisms that give rise to that behaviour are in fact entirely deterministic, meaning that the behaviour is itself deterministic, is actually irrelevant. Thinking it is relevant is the flawed idea.
The hoops people jump through to try to make human thought fundamentally indeterministic just so that some strong sense of free will is still a possibility are ... uhm ... bonkers. If a thinking thing is genuinely free to decide things fully independently of everything else in the universe, yet also based on previous experience and not just by choosing randomly ... then the thing doing reasoning can't be just a physical object. It has to be doing more than the things described by physics, so in that sense it is "supernatural". You might as well just say "and then a miracle happens" and I make a decision.
Really enjoyed that article, thank you.
There’s a great image in there, of someone watching their own thoughts make the decision. So the observing me might not have any capacity for decision making, but something in my brain does (even if causally driven). Which is Ok by me, as provided some process is going on up there, I’m happy to be directed by it.
As it says in another part of the article, just because you’re deterministic, doesn’t mean you need to be fatalistic. Decisions may be impossible, but that doesn’t mean they don’t matter.
Thanks again for posting, even if it’s true that it wasn’t your choice to post it, or mine to read it.
There’s a great image in there, of someone watching their own thoughts make the decision. So the observing me might not have any capacity for decision making, but something in my brain does (even if causally driven). Which is Ok by me, as provided some process is going on up there, I’m happy to be directed by it.
As it says in another part of the article, just because you’re deterministic, doesn’t mean you need to be fatalistic. Decisions may be impossible, but that doesn’t mean they don’t matter.
Thanks again for posting, even if it’s true that it wasn’t your choice to post it, or mine to read it.
When you are young it is nice to think that you have free will to control your life and that the world is your oyster.
As an old man looking back I realise that all the life changing moments that have happened are things that were imposed on me, at the very least things of which I could never have guessed the outcome.
Thanks for pointing us to this article.
As an old man looking back I realise that all the life changing moments that have happened are things that were imposed on me, at the very least things of which I could never have guessed the outcome.
Thanks for pointing us to this article.
For those that can't be arsed reading, the Podcast by Sam Harris https://samharris.org/podcasts/241-final-thoughts-...
I knew Esceptico would post this here when he did.
Humans have thrived on their ability to live in two world at once, the real world and the world that exists in our (and our collective) consciousness... No need to upset the apple cart if you ask me. Few people understand quantum theory and even fewer the workings of human consciousness... Until it can be explained to simpletons like me in a way that doesn't upset us then it's best left unsaid.
I've met a few Nihilist and I wouldn't consider them to be a happy or contented bunch and that's what life should be about.
Humans have thrived on their ability to live in two world at once, the real world and the world that exists in our (and our collective) consciousness... No need to upset the apple cart if you ask me. Few people understand quantum theory and even fewer the workings of human consciousness... Until it can be explained to simpletons like me in a way that doesn't upset us then it's best left unsaid.
I've met a few Nihilist and I wouldn't consider them to be a happy or contented bunch and that's what life should be about.
Terminator X said:
I just chose to reply, free will surely?
TX.
Not necessarily.TX.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
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