Time travellers - settling in to the 1620's
Discussion
I was reminded recently of the article (Wired?) from some years back where the author tried to make a toaster from scratch. The concept was whether it was possible for one person to make a relatively simple industrial object or if the mechanisation of society is so advanced that the tools and techniques are no longer accessible to individuals.
The conclusion was that it is just too hard at small scale. I was idly pondering something similar last week (yes, I was stuck in a queue at Heathrow, how did you guess?) about a time traveller going back 400 years, and what would be the viable development route.
Let's set the rules as you arrive somewhere reasonable - a city in western Europe, no conflicts, everyone getting on. They're past the witchcraft stage so you can display your knowledge without the whole stake 'n' matches thing. You've got access to skilled craftspeople.
You know or bring a solid knowledge of 21st century physics / engineering / civils / chemistry. You're not Hawking or Woodward, but you know how to do steel and concrete and bridges and electromagnetism and hydrocarbons and flight and steam and machining.
Where do you start ? Electricity - How do you get the wire ? Oil - just burning crude ? Machine tools ? What is the starting point when nothing else exists and you have to do it from first principles.
The conclusion was that it is just too hard at small scale. I was idly pondering something similar last week (yes, I was stuck in a queue at Heathrow, how did you guess?) about a time traveller going back 400 years, and what would be the viable development route.
Let's set the rules as you arrive somewhere reasonable - a city in western Europe, no conflicts, everyone getting on. They're past the witchcraft stage so you can display your knowledge without the whole stake 'n' matches thing. You've got access to skilled craftspeople.
You know or bring a solid knowledge of 21st century physics / engineering / civils / chemistry. You're not Hawking or Woodward, but you know how to do steel and concrete and bridges and electromagnetism and hydrocarbons and flight and steam and machining.
Where do you start ? Electricity - How do you get the wire ? Oil - just burning crude ? Machine tools ? What is the starting point when nothing else exists and you have to do it from first principles.
Metallurgy has to be the start point, surely? Without advancing that branch of science you don't have metals and alloys capable of being used to apply any other advances in science and engineering. If you can advance materials science a few centuries, creative, clever minds will use those advances to drive advances in other areas.
And pushing technologies in different directions would be a fun idea. I'd love to see an alternative reality where Electric Vehicles were successful in place of ICE power in vehicles. And where hydro-electric and other "green" tech was developed in preference to coal, oil, etc. It would be VERY interesting to see if development in that direction would have headed off our current "climate crisis", or just replaced it with a different set of problems we'd now need to overcome. Perhaps even worse problems than we have now.
And pushing technologies in different directions would be a fun idea. I'd love to see an alternative reality where Electric Vehicles were successful in place of ICE power in vehicles. And where hydro-electric and other "green" tech was developed in preference to coal, oil, etc. It would be VERY interesting to see if development in that direction would have headed off our current "climate crisis", or just replaced it with a different set of problems we'd now need to overcome. Perhaps even worse problems than we have now.
Great topic! After introducing the concept of gender fluidity and dental care, I think basic engineering to permit manufacturing and precision metal working would unlock a lot.
Also, education on basics maths and sciences would allow the those capable in the population to begin innovating themselves.
Also, education on basics maths and sciences would allow the those capable in the population to begin innovating themselves.
Thebaggers said:
Faust66 said:
DodgyGeezer]Sad to say 400 years backthere was a [b said:
lot[\b] a witch persecuting on. Prepare to be burned my friend
Witches were normally hung.More seriously to answer the OP:
Something along the lines of "I've noticed steam can push the lid of a kettle up... wonder if it could 'push' anything bigger?"
Or "have you ever noticed that smoke and steam rises? Wonder if you could 'capture' the smoke or steam and make things go up into the air?"
Using people's natural observations might be the way to go. That said, how many people these days know how to actually make or fix stuff? How many people could tell you how to refine hydrocarbons, how many people could rig up a machine to generate electricity?
Even if you could make a crude generator, what would you use it for? What practical application could it have in the 1600s? It'd be a bit of a toy to most people. Scientists might be able to see the value in the generator, but with out the existing background and knowledge of electricity, even they might be at a bit of a loss.
This would also apply to other 'stuff' we take for granted. Without Boyle's work on thermodynamics (pressure of a gas being proportional to the volume in a closed system etc) how are you going to explain how to pump up a tyre. Without Bernoulli's work, how are you going to explain flight or hydraulic systems?
If you REALLY wanted to make a difference.... make or take with you an accurate mechanical watch with parts that can be replicated in the 1600s. Using this to aid navigation you could transform world trade by being able to accurately work out longitude. IIRC, until the mid-1700s sailors struggled to maintain accurate navigation when out of sight of land (latitude can be sorted with a sextant). This would massively increase international trade with the associated benefits of exposure to new ideas, people, goods and trade.
Or just hang back a few years and chat to Newton. He'd understand what you were talking about (maybe). He might even dedicate 'principia to you.
Note: the above is all from memory and I've had a couple of beers. Apologies for any errors.
yellowjack said:
Metallurgy has to be the start point, surely? Without advancing that branch of science you don't have metals and alloys capable of being used to apply any other advances in science and engineering. If you can advance materials science a few centuries, creative, clever minds will use those advances to drive advances in other areas.
.
If you go down that route, steel is the big one that you have to make. Until you can make steel, you can't make railways, or big ships, or bridges (cheaply), or baked bean cans or anything else. .
But to make steel, you need to have a bloody big fan that will generate a decent degree of pressure (Bessemer convertor), so realistically you need a steam engine, or maybe, just maybe, a water wheel.
So, motive power, steel processing, machine tools and improved precision engineering.
Bridges, railways, and then electricity. You can't make wire drawing machinery without precision engineering, and refined metallurgy. Once you can make wire, things are heading in the right direction.
Once you have electricity, you're nearly home and dry.
Of course, once you have electric you could leave others to build a national grid, while you possibly spend your time nipping off to develop penicillin or something equally as useful.
You'd actually make quite an impression developing a glider for heavier than air flight, as many of the carpentry skills would be available - can you imagine the storm that would cause?
I have often wondered how we could rebuild even the current world in the event of a massive asteroid strike or nuclear war.
Who knows how a 4K TV works? Or an iPhone? Or wireless networks and mobile comms networks? (Or even wired networks?!)
Could you design and build an engine? Or even know where to find and how to refine the fuel?
Could anyone identify and create antibiotics from scratch? Or the female contraceptive pill?
Who knows how a 4K TV works? Or an iPhone? Or wireless networks and mobile comms networks? (Or even wired networks?!)
Could you design and build an engine? Or even know where to find and how to refine the fuel?
Could anyone identify and create antibiotics from scratch? Or the female contraceptive pill?
Faust66 said:
If you REALLY wanted to make a difference.... make or take with you an accurate mechanical watch with parts that can be replicated in the 1600s. Using this to aid navigation you could transform world trade by being able to accurately work out longitude. IIRC, until the mid-1700s sailors struggled to maintain accurate navigation when out of sight of land (latitude can be sorted with a sextant). This would massively increase international trade with the associated benefits of exposure to new ideas, people, goods and trade.
There were amazingly complex watches in the 1600s, a time we modern people seemingly think solely involved people in mud huts, wood framed buildings and castles lit by flaming torches!https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/watc/hd_watc.htm
IIRC the longitude problem was partly down to clocks varying in their accuracy when they were moved around? I'm not sure if a tourbillon movement would have at least partly solved that issue - it seems they were not invented until the 1930s:
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/one-of-the-first...
RSTurboPaul said:
I have often wondered how we could rebuild even the current world in the event of a massive asteroid strike or nuclear war.
I recently watched a video by 'Exploring the Unbeaten Path' on YouTube where they visited a cold war era bunker (I think it was in Italy but I can't find it now) containing a good selection of machining equipment, I guess it was set up in the hope that they could still make things should the worst happen. 
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