2021 745e vs snow chains / socks
Discussion
HI all,
Whilst loving my (first ever) BMW experience, I am taking it to Italian Alps in two weeks time.
The route takes us through France and Switzerland, and I read some roads would legally require snow chains to pass.
My question is:
Will I be ok with socks? Apparently they are a grey area. And if I am to get chains, would they not damage the car? Clearance on a 7 is certainly nowhere near the usual MSport gap, but I worry that with 20" wheels it could get a bit tight in the arches.
Chains are way more expensive too. Would I only need them on driven wheels? Or all four?
Thanks in advance for the insights.
Regards
Bart
Whilst loving my (first ever) BMW experience, I am taking it to Italian Alps in two weeks time.
The route takes us through France and Switzerland, and I read some roads would legally require snow chains to pass.
My question is:
Will I be ok with socks? Apparently they are a grey area. And if I am to get chains, would they not damage the car? Clearance on a 7 is certainly nowhere near the usual MSport gap, but I worry that with 20" wheels it could get a bit tight in the arches.
Chains are way more expensive too. Would I only need them on driven wheels? Or all four?
Thanks in advance for the insights.
Regards
Bart
If you've got chains you've got to reduce the speed as well (to 50 kmh from memory). The answer is almost certainly a second set of tyres.
Switzerland doesn't require winter tyres by law, though as you note some roads require AWD or chains. However if you're in an accident you'll probably struggle persuading an insurer here that you didn't cause the crash, or couldn't have avoided it due to the decision to not have winter wheels. Hence nobody I know here - in the resorts or in the lowland parts - uses summer tyres in the winter.
You can't have chains on the motorway so if it's snowing there you're in trouble - basically you'd have to drive off the motorway at a maximum of 50kmh.
Switzerland doesn't require winter tyres by law, though as you note some roads require AWD or chains. However if you're in an accident you'll probably struggle persuading an insurer here that you didn't cause the crash, or couldn't have avoided it due to the decision to not have winter wheels. Hence nobody I know here - in the resorts or in the lowland parts - uses summer tyres in the winter.
You can't have chains on the motorway so if it's snowing there you're in trouble - basically you'd have to drive off the motorway at a maximum of 50kmh.
Hi,
No winter tyres.
We are driving through France, and through Switzerland, then Italy of course. Neither of those countries require winter tyres. There are only a handful of roads / areas en route that might need chains. And I think some of them only from 15th November. We go 31st Oct to 7th Nov. I am still unclear about socks being an equivalent toi chains, however.
Plus, we are only going there for a week, not that it makes any difference.
No winter tyres.
We are driving through France, and through Switzerland, then Italy of course. Neither of those countries require winter tyres. There are only a handful of roads / areas en route that might need chains. And I think some of them only from 15th November. We go 31st Oct to 7th Nov. I am still unclear about socks being an equivalent toi chains, however.
Plus, we are only going there for a week, not that it makes any difference.
This is the situation here in Switzerland
- Winter tyres are advisable, but not compulsory. Almost nobody doesn't have them though.
- You can only use snow socks / chains when there is settled snow on the road. I don't think you'd get away with driving in slush with chains / socks.
- If you wear snow chains or socks the speed limit (I think) is 50 kmh. Hence no motorway
- If you have a crash and you're not having winter tyres it's almost certainly judged to be your fault and your insurance might be invalidated. If the police (which you have to call in an accident when someone is hurt) judge the conditions required winter tyres (ie colder than 7 degrees) you will likely be fined for not being suitably equipped.
- If you have to slow down for the conditions and are judged to be slowing the traffic you will likely be fined. Because everyone has winter tyres they'll probably be driving at normal speeds whilst it is snowing. 120kmh on the motorway whilst it's snowing is relatively normal
- If you get stuck and you haven't got winter tyres you'll be fined / charged heavily for being moved.
Traffic fines here can easily be over 1000 Swiss Francs. Some offences are income / wealth related.
Italian Alpine rules are pretty close to Swiss ones, at least in the Alpine areas. Some Italian regional authorities have mandated compulsory winter tyres so you need to check the areas you're planning to drive through. On some motorways in the Alps winter tyres are obligatory.
The French law has been changed for this coming winter which seems to have tightened it considerably.
- Winter tyres are advisable, but not compulsory. Almost nobody doesn't have them though.
- You can only use snow socks / chains when there is settled snow on the road. I don't think you'd get away with driving in slush with chains / socks.
- If you wear snow chains or socks the speed limit (I think) is 50 kmh. Hence no motorway
- If you have a crash and you're not having winter tyres it's almost certainly judged to be your fault and your insurance might be invalidated. If the police (which you have to call in an accident when someone is hurt) judge the conditions required winter tyres (ie colder than 7 degrees) you will likely be fined for not being suitably equipped.
- If you have to slow down for the conditions and are judged to be slowing the traffic you will likely be fined. Because everyone has winter tyres they'll probably be driving at normal speeds whilst it is snowing. 120kmh on the motorway whilst it's snowing is relatively normal
- If you get stuck and you haven't got winter tyres you'll be fined / charged heavily for being moved.
Traffic fines here can easily be over 1000 Swiss Francs. Some offences are income / wealth related.
Italian Alpine rules are pretty close to Swiss ones, at least in the Alpine areas. Some Italian regional authorities have mandated compulsory winter tyres so you need to check the areas you're planning to drive through. On some motorways in the Alps winter tyres are obligatory.
The French law has been changed for this coming winter which seems to have tightened it considerably.
I wouldn't contemplate this trip without winter tyres. Avoiding the roads that require chains is relatively easy unless your resort is super high, and you generally won't need chains on the normal Alps roads - but winters are a must.
I did the Alps in my 340i in 2019 and winters were fantastic. Didn't take chains or snow socks. When we got to the resort (Morzine) it was clear on the roads but it dumped when we were there and I'd have been stuck on summer tyres. The winters were more than enough to get through the snow in resort without an issue.
I did the Alps in my 340i in 2019 and winters were fantastic. Didn't take chains or snow socks. When we got to the resort (Morzine) it was clear on the roads but it dumped when we were there and I'd have been stuck on summer tyres. The winters were more than enough to get through the snow in resort without an issue.
Thanks everyone for comments.
I ended up buying a set of socks from Autosock as apparently they are the only ones recognised by French Authorities as equivalent to chains.
The trip is in the first week of November. I checked weather and regulations and whilst French rules are getting tightened from 1st, indeed, from the legal standpoint I should be covered.
The resort is near Reschensee in the Italian Alps. Elevation is around 1500m, so not as high the proper Alps.
I also looked up choice of routes and generally can detour through France, cut across Switzerland, or do a longer but “faster route” through Germany.
Food for thought 🤔
I ended up buying a set of socks from Autosock as apparently they are the only ones recognised by French Authorities as equivalent to chains.
The trip is in the first week of November. I checked weather and regulations and whilst French rules are getting tightened from 1st, indeed, from the legal standpoint I should be covered.
The resort is near Reschensee in the Italian Alps. Elevation is around 1500m, so not as high the proper Alps.
I also looked up choice of routes and generally can detour through France, cut across Switzerland, or do a longer but “faster route” through Germany.
Food for thought 🤔
naturalaspiration said:
Ever tried driving the mountain road in a 2 ton car, with front tyres being super wide high performance summers? It won't steer nor stop when necessary. Do it at your peril...
Agreed, all 4 wheels.Honestly (and might not be the answer you're after), I'd just crack on and put on winters. Faffing with snow socks and chains is going to be a ballache.
g3org3y said:
Agreed, all 4 wheels.
Honestly (and might not be the answer you're after), I'd just crack on and put on winters. Faffing with snow socks and chains is going to be a ballache.
Agreed. 1,500m is high enough to get a big dump in November - my experience of Morzine in 2019 (1,200m) was enough to convince me that I'd never go near the Alps without winters. Honestly (and might not be the answer you're after), I'd just crack on and put on winters. Faffing with snow socks and chains is going to be a ballache.
And bear in mind OP that winters, whilst an investment up front, aren't one-use things, you'll stick them on the car next November as well and get the benefit every winter after that until they are worn out. You'll save wear on your summer tyres as well as you'll be sharing across two sets of tyres, and if you get some eBay wheels as well for your winters, avoid getting the dreaded corrosion that diamond-cut wheels get when exposed to road salt (I presume you've got these).
Hey,
Thanks for replies.
The car barely does any mileage as is driven locally around London most of the time… I have never needed Winters in this country for the past 15 years, and also note that wheels + tyres would cost well over £2k. The car is on a 3 year lease, so I will never see the benefit of having (and having to store) Winter tyres in this particular instance. I am almost considering abandoning the trip if I am going to get stung by the dreadful weather conditions in the end 🤔
Thanks for replies.
The car barely does any mileage as is driven locally around London most of the time… I have never needed Winters in this country for the past 15 years, and also note that wheels + tyres would cost well over £2k. The car is on a 3 year lease, so I will never see the benefit of having (and having to store) Winter tyres in this particular instance. I am almost considering abandoning the trip if I am going to get stung by the dreadful weather conditions in the end 🤔
Agreed this has been somewhat of an eye opener. An ex-colleague of mine living in Milan once told me that it was law to have chains in your boot over winter but she didn’t know anyone who knew how to deploy them. Then again I have friends who have gone to southern Poland over winter and have had to use them in anger.
For those people living in Switzerland etc how do you practically manage tyres? Eg do you have summers then swap for winters in November? Or all-seasons all year? Or winters all year as better grip? And if you do rotate, do you store wheels / tyres at home or at garages? Two cars with two sets of wheels would mean having to accommodate 8 wheels in my garage.
For those people living in Switzerland etc how do you practically manage tyres? Eg do you have summers then swap for winters in November? Or all-seasons all year? Or winters all year as better grip? And if you do rotate, do you store wheels / tyres at home or at garages? Two cars with two sets of wheels would mean having to accommodate 8 wheels in my garage.
What people usually do is having two sets of tyres or wheels, swapping between seasons. Many tyre services offer tyre/complete wheel storage if you have nowhere to put them. With high performance cars, you usually have a different wheel set for winter with the narrowest tyre allowed, as wide tyres are pathetic in snow (even winter tyres). It's all well and good when flat, but any steep climbs become an issue, especially with a heavy RWD with part worn winters. When conditions are really bad you also need snow chains.
In the Alps in winter locals do not drive with summer tyres on. But for a one off trip, I guess 4 winter socks would do to get you out of trouble, and as it is early in the season there may be no snow at all. But also watch for icy roads in freezing temperatures especially early mornings and especially if the sky is clear - that's when the temperature drops. Roads are usually well maintained so if there is a sudden cold snap they sould put some salt on the road.
Yes, I have seen a few of those with snow chains who don't know how to put them on, struggling by the side of the road...some even putting them on the wrong axle...and one thing people often forget is that you need gloves if you want to avoid potentially serious frost bites when fiddling with cold snow chain steel in windy sub zero temperature and...you simply won't be able to put them on...I would have them with socks as well - and, with gloves on, practice putting them on and off before getting stuck. You will then impress your girlfriend/wife up in the mountain with how cool and in control you are. :-)
All season tyres are ok if you live somewhere without snow and do just occasional trips into snowy areas, or you don't drive much. They're sort of the worst of both worlds, worse than summers in summer and worse than winters in winter. :-)
In the Alps in winter locals do not drive with summer tyres on. But for a one off trip, I guess 4 winter socks would do to get you out of trouble, and as it is early in the season there may be no snow at all. But also watch for icy roads in freezing temperatures especially early mornings and especially if the sky is clear - that's when the temperature drops. Roads are usually well maintained so if there is a sudden cold snap they sould put some salt on the road.
Yes, I have seen a few of those with snow chains who don't know how to put them on, struggling by the side of the road...some even putting them on the wrong axle...and one thing people often forget is that you need gloves if you want to avoid potentially serious frost bites when fiddling with cold snow chain steel in windy sub zero temperature and...you simply won't be able to put them on...I would have them with socks as well - and, with gloves on, practice putting them on and off before getting stuck. You will then impress your girlfriend/wife up in the mountain with how cool and in control you are. :-)
All season tyres are ok if you live somewhere without snow and do just occasional trips into snowy areas, or you don't drive much. They're sort of the worst of both worlds, worse than summers in summer and worse than winters in winter. :-)
naturalaspiration said:
What people usually do is having two sets of tyres or wheels, swapping between seasons. Many tyre services offer tyre/complete wheel storage if you have nowhere to put them. With high performance cars, you usually have a different wheel set for winter with the narrowest tyre allowed, as wide tyres are pathetic in snow (even winter tyres). It's all well and good when flat, but any steep climbs become an issue, especially with a heavy RWD with part worn winters. When conditions are really bad you also need snow chains.
In the Alps in winter locals do not drive with summer tyres on. But for a one off trip, I guess 4 winter socks would do to get you out of trouble, and as it is early in the season there may be no snow at all. But also watch for icy roads in freezing temperatures especially early mornings and especially if the sky is clear - that's when the temperature drops. Roads are usually well maintained so if there is a sudden cold snap they sould put some salt on the road.
Yes, I have seen a few of those with snow chains who don't know how to put them on, struggling by the side of the road...some even putting them on the wrong axle...and one thing people often forget is that you need gloves if you want to avoid potentially serious frost bites when fiddling with cold snow chain steel in windy sub zero temperature and...you simply won't be able to put them on...I would have them with socks as well - and, with gloves on, practice putting them on and off before getting stuck. You will then impress your girlfriend/wife up in the mountain with how cool and in control you are. :-)
All season tyres are ok if you live somewhere without snow and do just occasional trips into snowy areas, or you don't drive much. They're sort of the worst of both worlds, worse than summers in summer and worse than winters in winter. :-)
Very helpful many thanks - my in laws in NE USA have many snow days and I know for sure they never swap wheels in winter.. I’ll ask them what they have - presumably all-season ones. In the Alps in winter locals do not drive with summer tyres on. But for a one off trip, I guess 4 winter socks would do to get you out of trouble, and as it is early in the season there may be no snow at all. But also watch for icy roads in freezing temperatures especially early mornings and especially if the sky is clear - that's when the temperature drops. Roads are usually well maintained so if there is a sudden cold snap they sould put some salt on the road.
Yes, I have seen a few of those with snow chains who don't know how to put them on, struggling by the side of the road...some even putting them on the wrong axle...and one thing people often forget is that you need gloves if you want to avoid potentially serious frost bites when fiddling with cold snow chain steel in windy sub zero temperature and...you simply won't be able to put them on...I would have them with socks as well - and, with gloves on, practice putting them on and off before getting stuck. You will then impress your girlfriend/wife up in the mountain with how cool and in control you are. :-)
All season tyres are ok if you live somewhere without snow and do just occasional trips into snowy areas, or you don't drive much. They're sort of the worst of both worlds, worse than summers in summer and worse than winters in winter. :-)
Lots of good advice above - many thanks.
If your car can fit 17" wheels over its brakes, I could lend you a set of wheels fitted with Michelin Alpin 225/45R17 winter tyres which I bought for my E46 when I lived in Germany. I have no idea if the total diameter of the wheel would be suitable or whether the offset will match exactly, but I think the bolt pattern should be the same. I'm west of London just outside the M25.
LunarOne said:
If your car can fit 17" wheels over its brakes, I could lend you a set of wheels fitted with Michelin Alpin 225/45R17 winter tyres which I bought for my E46 when I lived in Germany. I have no idea if the total diameter of the wheel would be suitable or whether the offset will match exactly, but I think the bolt pattern should be the same. I'm west of London just outside the M25.
Information I found online says that the 2020 745e can take 17" wheels, but for a 225 width they would be a 60% sidewall, so 225/60R17. So they should fit, but they'll look small in the arches and your speedo will overread significantly. It would likely invalidate your insurance too, so perhaps not the best idea.
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