Modern army combat clothing and gear.
Discussion
I did ask this question in the Ukraine war thread but that moves so quickly it would have been buried in minutes.
Interested in what any current or former services personel might have to say.
Seeing harrowing footage from the ground I notice that the Russian and Ukrainian soldiers look very similar. Same clothing, same helmets, same rifles and very similar language.
Must be a nightmare (not that any conflict is not) in the fog of war.
The men appear to have different coloured gaffer tape around their arms. Is that all they have to denote whether they are friend or foe?
In WW2 the US, UK, French, German, Russian, Japanese and Italian armies all had completely different uniforms and helmets as well as different rifles but nowadays most armies look broadly similar.
It would be a monumental f up if a load of trigger happy US troops were sent into Ukraine. How would they tell which side they were shooting at?
Interested in what any current or former services personel might have to say.
Seeing harrowing footage from the ground I notice that the Russian and Ukrainian soldiers look very similar. Same clothing, same helmets, same rifles and very similar language.
Must be a nightmare (not that any conflict is not) in the fog of war.
The men appear to have different coloured gaffer tape around their arms. Is that all they have to denote whether they are friend or foe?
In WW2 the US, UK, French, German, Russian, Japanese and Italian armies all had completely different uniforms and helmets as well as different rifles but nowadays most armies look broadly similar.
It would be a monumental f up if a load of trigger happy US troops were sent into Ukraine. How would they tell which side they were shooting at?
croyde said:
I did ask this question in the Ukraine war thread but that moves so quickly it would have been buried in minutes.
Interested in what any current or former services personel might have to say.
Seeing harrowing footage from the ground I notice that the Russian and Ukrainian soldiers look very similar. Same clothing, same helmets, same rifles and very similar language.
Must be a nightmare (not that any conflict is not) in the fog of war.
The men appear to have different coloured gaffer tape around their arms. Is that all they have to denote whether they are friend or foe?
In WW2 the US, UK, French, German, Russian, Japanese and Italian armies all had completely different uniforms and helmets as well as different rifles but nowadays most armies look broadly similar.
It would be a monumental f up if a load of trigger happy US troops were sent into Ukraine. How would they tell which side they were shooting at?
To be fair, it probably doesn’t much matter. Interested in what any current or former services personel might have to say.
Seeing harrowing footage from the ground I notice that the Russian and Ukrainian soldiers look very similar. Same clothing, same helmets, same rifles and very similar language.
Must be a nightmare (not that any conflict is not) in the fog of war.
The men appear to have different coloured gaffer tape around their arms. Is that all they have to denote whether they are friend or foe?
In WW2 the US, UK, French, German, Russian, Japanese and Italian armies all had completely different uniforms and helmets as well as different rifles but nowadays most armies look broadly similar.
It would be a monumental f up if a load of trigger happy US troops were sent into Ukraine. How would they tell which side they were shooting at?
The running friendly fire gag in the UK military, at least since the arrival of the US in the Second World War, has been along the lines of:
When the Germans fire, the Brits duck,
When the Brits fire, the Germans duck,
And when the Yanks fire, everybody ducks.
I've wondered about this too - not just the current conflict but others where the uniforms and kit are similar.
It's a bit of a dilemma I suppose, because insignia that's clear and conspicuous enough to be useful would also make you more easy to spot, while very low visibility stuff would open you up to the risk of friendly fire.
Is it now just more a case of always having to know where "your" guys are, so by definition anyone else must be an enemy?
It's a bit of a dilemma I suppose, because insignia that's clear and conspicuous enough to be useful would also make you more easy to spot, while very low visibility stuff would open you up to the risk of friendly fire.
Is it now just more a case of always having to know where "your" guys are, so by definition anyone else must be an enemy?
And given the similarities it comes down to effective comms and tactical decision making. If you know where your friends are, you know who you can stick a few caps in. And if this conflict has shown anything, it's that the Russians have been as effective as they have ever been in these areas, whereas Ukrainian troops have been pretty well trained over the last near decade, and that goes a long way to redressing numerical disadvantages.
Multicam and its variations, including British army MTP has broadly been accepted as the most effective camouflage system, as such even countries that don't use it as its main uniform have adopted it for specific deployments.
Trying to identify between friend/foe is quite difficult on the ground, but decent control and coordination measures make it workable.
The real issue is identifying between friendly and enemy armoured vehicles. The Russians and Ukrainians all use broadly the same vehicles, and now they've started capturing each others kit its become even more confused.
The difference between a Russian and Ukranian tank are really minimal, especially when viewed through night sights (no colour) or thermal sights. You have to look for the slightest clues, such as the shape of the weapon sights on the turret.
This means that the soldiers on both sides need to have a very detailed understanding of the vehicles, not unlike some of the bearing seen on pistonheads - if you can identify a 306 GTI 6 based on engine note or the body shape of an e46 BMW based on the front headlight, then armoured vehicle spotting might be for you!
Trying to identify between friend/foe is quite difficult on the ground, but decent control and coordination measures make it workable.
The real issue is identifying between friendly and enemy armoured vehicles. The Russians and Ukrainians all use broadly the same vehicles, and now they've started capturing each others kit its become even more confused.
The difference between a Russian and Ukranian tank are really minimal, especially when viewed through night sights (no colour) or thermal sights. You have to look for the slightest clues, such as the shape of the weapon sights on the turret.
This means that the soldiers on both sides need to have a very detailed understanding of the vehicles, not unlike some of the bearing seen on pistonheads - if you can identify a 306 GTI 6 based on engine note or the body shape of an e46 BMW based on the front headlight, then armoured vehicle spotting might be for you!
psi310398 said:
To be fair, it probably doesn’t much matter.
The running friendly fire gag in the UK military, at least since the arrival of the US in the Second World War, has been along the lines of:
When the Germans fire, the Brits duck,
When the Brits fire, the Germans duck,
And when the Yanks fire, everybody ducks.
Basic US infantry tactic.The running friendly fire gag in the UK military, at least since the arrival of the US in the Second World War, has been along the lines of:
When the Germans fire, the Brits duck,
When the Brits fire, the Germans duck,
And when the Yanks fire, everybody ducks.
Spray and pray.
I suppose this is where the very structured command structure comes in.
Everyone should by and large not be put in front of their friends within an area where they could engage each other, without everyone up/down the command structure knowing that’s what was happening.
I suppose this gets really hectic if indeed you did have two separate command structures of friendlies operating over the top of each other… which is why I expect you wouldn’t do it.
Everyone should by and large not be put in front of their friends within an area where they could engage each other, without everyone up/down the command structure knowing that’s what was happening.
I suppose this gets really hectic if indeed you did have two separate command structures of friendlies operating over the top of each other… which is why I expect you wouldn’t do it.
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