Why is education stuck in the 19 Century?
Discussion
I was chatting to me wife about education this morning. We both bemoaned the fact that a large percentage of what we learnt at school has not been useful to us as adults, beyond our exam grades getting us into university. On the other hand there is so much we did need as adults that we were not taught.
Just as a simple example: cars. Pretty much everyone owns a car and yes you have to take a driving test but it would be really useful to have learnt some basic car maintenance - how to check oil, tyres, change a wheel etc. I mean actual practical experience.
On the same topic, how to finance a car and details about how insurance works, car taxes etc. It is assumed that you will learn that as an adult but given how many people don’t maintain their cars and get into financial trouble some training would likely help.
Moving away from cars how about cooking, basic DIY, an understanding of how the country runs eg government, voting, laws, the welfare system etc. I suspect the general level of ignorance is fairly high about pretty basic aspect of life in the UK.
How about something as basic as being able to write letters and understanding and being able to use the different registers?
I know that some schools do have lifestyle sessions but I don’t think they take up a big part of the curriculum.
The UK doesn’t seem to be alone in its academic approach to learning. Are there countries that do put more emphasis of practical skills and knowledge that will help most people in daily life?
Just as a simple example: cars. Pretty much everyone owns a car and yes you have to take a driving test but it would be really useful to have learnt some basic car maintenance - how to check oil, tyres, change a wheel etc. I mean actual practical experience.
On the same topic, how to finance a car and details about how insurance works, car taxes etc. It is assumed that you will learn that as an adult but given how many people don’t maintain their cars and get into financial trouble some training would likely help.
Moving away from cars how about cooking, basic DIY, an understanding of how the country runs eg government, voting, laws, the welfare system etc. I suspect the general level of ignorance is fairly high about pretty basic aspect of life in the UK.
How about something as basic as being able to write letters and understanding and being able to use the different registers?
I know that some schools do have lifestyle sessions but I don’t think they take up a big part of the curriculum.
The UK doesn’t seem to be alone in its academic approach to learning. Are there countries that do put more emphasis of practical skills and knowledge that will help most people in daily life?
The UK system is woefully inadequate, I know it's many years ago now, but I moved to from the Netherlands to Cambridge aged 14 and it was like going back to primary school. Every subject that I was taking was at a much lower level (Maths and French spring immediately to mind).
Even more than that, I had to wear a uniform (very strange concept), teachers treated pupils like children, respect was demanded but never given, and there was just no freedom. No nipping home at lunch and no free periods. Very restrictive, and unsurprisingly, many pupils behaved like children and kicked off.
Even more than that, I had to wear a uniform (very strange concept), teachers treated pupils like children, respect was demanded but never given, and there was just no freedom. No nipping home at lunch and no free periods. Very restrictive, and unsurprisingly, many pupils behaved like children and kicked off.
Stuff I learnt at school between 1963 to 1974.
Sports. I was good at nearly all sports. Team games and individual.
Rural science. I know how to assist most animals to give birth and learnt about wildlife,pollution,soil testing any many other things.
English. Reading,writing,spelling. I can put a letter together when I have to. Form an estimate and an invoice.
History. Not a lot.
Geography. Interesting but now more so for me. Should have done better.
Languages. German. Hated it. Now fluent French speaker.
Religious studies. Some rubbish. But bought up RC so I know about control.
Woodwork and metalwork. Use a lathe,saw etc. I can now build a house if I need to.
2 year car maintenance and welding course on day release from school at local college.
Home economics. Learnt how to cook food and peel spuds etc.
Education needs to kick start young people's interest in subjects,needs to be attractive to an individual. It's the system and teachers job to recognize what each pupil is capable of and what interests each one.
Not an easy task.
Clubs play a big part also.
For me it was the school camping club and local army cadets. By the time I was 14 I was also a team member of a men's rugby club and men's football club.
It's all history now I know.
Sports. I was good at nearly all sports. Team games and individual.
Rural science. I know how to assist most animals to give birth and learnt about wildlife,pollution,soil testing any many other things.
English. Reading,writing,spelling. I can put a letter together when I have to. Form an estimate and an invoice.
History. Not a lot.
Geography. Interesting but now more so for me. Should have done better.
Languages. German. Hated it. Now fluent French speaker.
Religious studies. Some rubbish. But bought up RC so I know about control.
Woodwork and metalwork. Use a lathe,saw etc. I can now build a house if I need to.
2 year car maintenance and welding course on day release from school at local college.
Home economics. Learnt how to cook food and peel spuds etc.
Education needs to kick start young people's interest in subjects,needs to be attractive to an individual. It's the system and teachers job to recognize what each pupil is capable of and what interests each one.
Not an easy task.
Clubs play a big part also.
For me it was the school camping club and local army cadets. By the time I was 14 I was also a team member of a men's rugby club and men's football club.
It's all history now I know.
Skeptisk said:
I was chatting to me wife about education this morning. We both bemoaned the fact that a large percentage of what we learnt at school has not been useful to us as adults, beyond our exam grades getting us into university. On the other hand there is so much we did need as adults that we were not taught.
Just as a simple example: cars. Pretty much everyone owns a car and yes you have to take a driving test but it would be really useful to have learnt some basic car maintenance - how to check oil, tyres, change a wheel etc. I mean actual practical experience.
On the same topic, how to finance a car and details about how insurance works, car taxes etc. It is assumed that you will learn that as an adult but given how many people don’t maintain their cars and get into financial trouble some training would likely help.
Moving away from cars how about cooking, basic DIY, an understanding of how the country runs eg government, voting, laws, the welfare system etc. I suspect the general level of ignorance is fairly high about pretty basic aspect of life in the UK.
How about something as basic as being able to write letters and understanding and being able to use the different registers?
I know that some schools do have lifestyle sessions but I don’t think they take up a big part of the curriculum.
The UK doesn’t seem to be alone in its academic approach to learning. Are there countries that do put more emphasis of practical skills and knowledge that will help most people in daily life?
Am I missing something, isn’t most of this taught? Just as a simple example: cars. Pretty much everyone owns a car and yes you have to take a driving test but it would be really useful to have learnt some basic car maintenance - how to check oil, tyres, change a wheel etc. I mean actual practical experience.
On the same topic, how to finance a car and details about how insurance works, car taxes etc. It is assumed that you will learn that as an adult but given how many people don’t maintain their cars and get into financial trouble some training would likely help.
Moving away from cars how about cooking, basic DIY, an understanding of how the country runs eg government, voting, laws, the welfare system etc. I suspect the general level of ignorance is fairly high about pretty basic aspect of life in the UK.
How about something as basic as being able to write letters and understanding and being able to use the different registers?
I know that some schools do have lifestyle sessions but I don’t think they take up a big part of the curriculum.
The UK doesn’t seem to be alone in its academic approach to learning. Are there countries that do put more emphasis of practical skills and knowledge that will help most people in daily life?
Your car example, there’s the show me, tell me questions that cover stuff like checking oil, tires etc.
As for education the other way to look at it is that I should give a person the ability to learn those tasks. With the internet now research and learning new skills is easier. Instead of spending hours teaching how to finance a car and pay bills. They teach you maths gives you the base to then apply this and understand bills.
Same with writing letter (it was taught when I left 7or so years ago) but you are taught English which gives you the ability to write that. Sciences give you the research skills etc. so if someone wants to learn to cook or diy they have the ability to learn how to.
There isn’t the time to teach all the specifics so they are taught transferable skills they can then use to adapt to everyday circumstances.
You could also argue some ‘life skills’ should be taught by parents rather than school.
In the mid-60s we had 'minority time subjects' that included most of the topics listed in the OP. Other options were as diverse as first aid and ballroom dancing - I did the first though not the second.
Of the formal subjects I was taught, physics, chemistry and religious knowledge haven't been of much practical use. I wish I'd had the opportunity to learn technical drawing and engineering though how was I to know decades later I'd develop an interest in classic cars?
Of the formal subjects I was taught, physics, chemistry and religious knowledge haven't been of much practical use. I wish I'd had the opportunity to learn technical drawing and engineering though how was I to know decades later I'd develop an interest in classic cars?
Phil Dicky said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Most of that is what parents should be doing. Too many people these days think they can offload responsibility to others.
Totally this, s
te parents forgetting what their role is.People have incredibly short memories.
Donbot said:
What would you remove from the curriculum to teach all that stuff? Education is about giving people a foundation to work from after all.
Exactly. When I was a school governor, lots of parents had very strong views on what should be taught (often aligning with their own particular interests or hobby horse), but when asked, no one knew what to drop in order to make room for it. Apart from RE, which is a legal requirement so schools don't have the power to drop it. And if they could, and kids were coming out of school with no knowledge of the world's major religions, people would be saying "the kids today are so thick". Edited by Donbot on Sunday 10th July 07:51
It's easy to say "what use was all that trigonometry I learnt" but a few people use it in their jobs daily. The school doesn't know what you're going to do for a living as an adult.
Phil Dicky said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Most of that is what parents should be doing. Too many people these days think they can offload responsibility to others.
Totally this, ste parents forgetting what their role is.ARHarh said:
Phil Dicky said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Most of that is what parents should be doing. Too many people these days think they can offload responsibility to others.
Totally this, ste parents forgetting what their role is.As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
Phil Dicky said:
I managed to educate my son around the finance for his new car. The options for a morgage application and my daughter the issues around managing her finances whilst at Uni. Not once did I moan that they should have learnt this stuff at school. Their school gave them the qualifications to go to Uni of be applying for a morgage at 21. The life skills is a parents responsibility.
As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
I imagine, given the age of your offspring that your knowledge of education is rather out of date.As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
Newarch said:
Phil Dicky said:
I managed to educate my son around the finance for his new car. The options for a morgage application and my daughter the issues around managing her finances whilst at Uni. Not once did I moan that they should have learnt this stuff at school. Their school gave them the qualifications to go to Uni of be applying for a morgage at 21. The life skills is a parents responsibility.
As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
I imagine, given the age of your offspring that your knowledge of education is rather out of date.As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
Education now just seems to be political and ideological indoctrination. I agree, I don’t see why schools should be teaching more than reading, writing and arithmetic. Everything else can be learned elsewhere, usually by parents passing down knowledge. Unfortunately that means a lot less civil servants to suck up our tax money.
ARHarh said:
Phil Dicky said:
Tyre Smoke said:
Most of that is what parents should be doing. Too many people these days think they can offload responsibility to others.
Totally this, ste parents forgetting what their role is.I totally agree.
As a parent to a 2 yr old and a nearly 7yr old i will do my best to try and teach the stuff that actually matters in real life.
Even if it was just an hour or so a week it would go a long way teaching kids why they are at school and what the point of it all is and that one day they will be adults.
As a parent to a 2 yr old and a nearly 7yr old i will do my best to try and teach the stuff that actually matters in real life.
Even if it was just an hour or so a week it would go a long way teaching kids why they are at school and what the point of it all is and that one day they will be adults.
Phil Dicky said:
Newarch said:
Phil Dicky said:
I managed to educate my son around the finance for his new car. The options for a morgage application and my daughter the issues around managing her finances whilst at Uni. Not once did I moan that they should have learnt this stuff at school. Their school gave them the qualifications to go to Uni of be applying for a morgage at 21. The life skills is a parents responsibility.
As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
I imagine, given the age of your offspring that your knowledge of education is rather out of date.As for the comments regarding Covid hardly relevant as that was a one off event.
educated than I was at their age. I was also impressed with the way they are asked to consider how they think about things, not just retaining facts.
They are also being encouraged to learn more esoteric things like computer programming.
The teaching profession didn’t exactly cover itself in glory during the pandemic though.
Education is very much not 19th century. No longer are children banished to the corner of the classroom to be humiliated with the dunce’s cap, denied learning because they are girls, forced to learn by rote without understanding or made to write a fact on paper and then eat the paper to “inwardly digest” that knowledge.
Now, I know opinions are like aholes (everyone’s got one and they all stink yadayada), but in the case of education it always seems to come in the form of “I once went to school and so now I consider myself entirely qualified to opine on the subject”.
I’ll give you an example: my education took place under the Thatcher and Major governments. I was never taught formal English grammar. It wasn’t covered in the then curriculum set by government. Whereas my daughter, who’s currently in secondary school, has already learned huge amounts of English grammar and formalised writing construction.
I daresay her ability to write a letter (
when was the last time any of you did that? I’m a lawyer and write about three a year!) will be significantly better than the nincompoops I encounter daily in the workplace and outside.
As for non-core subjects, many schools do offer experience and qualifications in these. But in a system where kids spend so little time in school - 30 hours a week, five of which are made up with morning and lunch breaks - there is only so much time available to get in the core subjects, let alone the nice-to-haves. Otherwise, you’re expecting optional after school clubs to pick up the slack in these other areas.
Maybe parents could spend more time teaching these life skills to their own kids. It is it too much to ask them to tear themselves away from work and staring at their own mobile phones?
Now, I know opinions are like a
holes (everyone’s got one and they all stink yadayada), but in the case of education it always seems to come in the form of “I once went to school and so now I consider myself entirely qualified to opine on the subject”.I’ll give you an example: my education took place under the Thatcher and Major governments. I was never taught formal English grammar. It wasn’t covered in the then curriculum set by government. Whereas my daughter, who’s currently in secondary school, has already learned huge amounts of English grammar and formalised writing construction.
I daresay her ability to write a letter (
when was the last time any of you did that? I’m a lawyer and write about three a year!) will be significantly better than the nincompoops I encounter daily in the workplace and outside. As for non-core subjects, many schools do offer experience and qualifications in these. But in a system where kids spend so little time in school - 30 hours a week, five of which are made up with morning and lunch breaks - there is only so much time available to get in the core subjects, let alone the nice-to-haves. Otherwise, you’re expecting optional after school clubs to pick up the slack in these other areas.
Maybe parents could spend more time teaching these life skills to their own kids. It is it too much to ask them to tear themselves away from work and staring at their own mobile phones?
Edited by OMITN on Sunday 10th July 09:28
TwigtheWonderkid said:
. Apart from RE, which is a legal requirement so schools don't have the power to drop it. And if they could, and kids were coming out of school with no knowledge of the world's major religions, people would be saying "the kids today are so thick".
It's easy to say "what use was all that trigonometry I learnt" but a few people use it in their jobs daily. The school doesn't know what you're going to do for a living as an adult.
Indo think RE should be rebranded. It's cultural awareness. In a South Wales comprehensive with barely any ethnic minorities it's a valuable subject, and benefits society in a much wider way. The problem is that it was (and probably all too often still is) taught by Christians that studied Theology at uni.It's easy to say "what use was all that trigonometry I learnt" but a few people use it in their jobs daily. The school doesn't know what you're going to do for a living as an adult.
Trigonometry, useful for anyone in professional engineering and trade roles, and anything involving materials too.
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