Ask an ‘elf an safety fella anything
Discussion
As the “waste operative” one is running, I figured I’d open one for the dreaded “elf & safety”. We’re a group that usually riles folk up, now’s your chance to ask questions in a manner that won’t have you sent to Doris in HR.
I’ve working internationally, mainly UK/Ireland, and in many, many sectors – including FMCG, Pharma, Chemical, Printing, Infrastructure etc. Anything from tiny companies to mega corporations.
Ask away! I’ve my hi-vis on, and the clipboard in hand.
M.
I’ve working internationally, mainly UK/Ireland, and in many, many sectors – including FMCG, Pharma, Chemical, Printing, Infrastructure etc. Anything from tiny companies to mega corporations.
Ask away! I’ve my hi-vis on, and the clipboard in hand.
M.
Where I work they are often called the department for the bleeding obvious however I know there is a need to a certain extend but what I can't understand is the silly stuff.
Do they just make stuff up for s
ts and giggles? case in point we've had all the walkways fenced off with railings (we used to call them footpaths) so you can't step off the curb and potentially have a fall, now you have to walk to a dropped kerb area to cross. Another point is everyone must reverse their car in to a parking space so they won't reverse into someone when leaving at night.
It seems every week we have a pointless email telling us not to stick our fingers in plug sockets and I'm sure they are just being sent for something to do.
Do they just make stuff up for s
ts and giggles? case in point we've had all the walkways fenced off with railings (we used to call them footpaths) so you can't step off the curb and potentially have a fall, now you have to walk to a dropped kerb area to cross. Another point is everyone must reverse their car in to a parking space so they won't reverse into someone when leaving at night.It seems every week we have a pointless email telling us not to stick our fingers in plug sockets and I'm sure they are just being sent for something to do.
deggles said:
What's the worst/most dangerous example of a health and safety breach you've seen recently?
Recently:Workers standing in about two feet of water in an excavation, with a live electrical current in it. They claimed they "felt a little tingle".
Electrician replacing a control unit. Fails to do the most basic of checks before making it live. Had screwed one of the mounting points straight through the live conductor into the ground. Managed to melt the electrical meter. That was a new one!
The "war stories", as we call them, are numerous.
Worst one ever: could have hospitalized 15,000 folk. (chemical plant)
Worst suggestion by a member of management: (a major underground road tunnel) "If there's a fire in the tunnel, can we switch on the fans to blow the smoke out of the way for the fire brigade?"
M.
Radec said:
How many days has it been since your last accident?
Any accident, or lost time. KPIs is important, you know! 
Lost time about 3 months I think, but I cover dozens of sites - so not too bad.
There was a site where I was tasked with reducing the incident rate. So we had an incentive plan. Hit X days without a lost time accident, everyone gets a pizza voucher. First target was 30 days. Hit it. Target went to 60 days. Hit it. Target went to 90. Hit it. Then 120 days. We had the tracker up on the screens throughout the plant. Common topic of conversation on the shop floor was "How many more days to the pizza voucher?". Gets to 117 days. Idiot is twirling a stick of wood around in his hand, accidently sticks it in his eye. Scratched cornea. He was almost lynched when the tracker got reset to zero!
(I'd already ordered the bloody vouchers too)M.
Sheets Tabuer said:
Where I work they are often called the department for the bleeding obvious however I know there is a need to a certain extend but what I can't understand is the silly stuff.
Do they just make stuff up for sts and giggles? case in point we've had all the walkways fenced off with railings (we used to call them footpaths) so you can't step off the curb and potentially have a fall, now you have to walk to a dropped kerb area to cross. Another point is everyone must reverse their car in to a parking space so they won't reverse into someone when leaving at night.
It seems every week we have a pointless email telling us not to stick our fingers in plug sockets and I'm sure they are just being sent for something to do.
We have a quote "you can't fix stupid". See those bags of peanuts that say "contains nuts"? There's a reason for that.Do they just make stuff up for s
ts and giggles? case in point we've had all the walkways fenced off with railings (we used to call them footpaths) so you can't step off the curb and potentially have a fall, now you have to walk to a dropped kerb area to cross. Another point is everyone must reverse their car in to a parking space so they won't reverse into someone when leaving at night.It seems every week we have a pointless email telling us not to stick our fingers in plug sockets and I'm sure they are just being sent for something to do.
Although a lot seems like overkill (and very often is, if you look at "average"), every "rule" is usually there because some div has done something stupid. And stupid costs money.
Claim culture has driven it into overdrive, unfortunately.
M.
Sheets Tabuer said:
Where I work they are often called the department for the bleeding obvious however I know there is a need to a certain extend but what I can't understand is the silly stuff.
Do they just make stuff up for sts and giggles? case in point we've had all the walkways fenced off with railings (we used to call them footpaths) so you can't step off the curb and potentially have a fall, now you have to walk to a dropped kerb area to cross. Another point is everyone must reverse their car in to a parking space so they won't reverse into someone when leaving at night.
It seems every week we have a pointless email telling us not to stick our fingers in plug sockets and I'm sure they are just being sent for something to do.
That's the reason you were given? We were told it was to make evacuating the premises quicker in an emergency as everyone was facing the same way and could drive straight out. I'm beginning to think this is an urban myth and it's just been spread around and picked up by HR.Do they just make stuff up for s
ts and giggles? case in point we've had all the walkways fenced off with railings (we used to call them footpaths) so you can't step off the curb and potentially have a fall, now you have to walk to a dropped kerb area to cross. Another point is everyone must reverse their car in to a parking space so they won't reverse into someone when leaving at night.It seems every week we have a pointless email telling us not to stick our fingers in plug sockets and I'm sure they are just being sent for something to do.
bigpriest said:
That's the reason you were given? We were told it was to make evacuating the premises quicker in an emergency as everyone was facing the same way and could drive straight out. I'm beginning to think this is an urban myth and it's just been spread around and picked up by HR.
It'll most likely be that someone somewhere reversed out and hit (or nearly hit) someone. It's got bugger all to do with leaving in cars in the event of an emergency. If it's truly an emergency where you need to drive away quickly, then your H&S folks need to be fired. There's very few scenarios where driving away is going to save your skin. (pun intended)M.
Mortarboard said:
Any accident, or lost time. KPIs is important, you know!
Lost time about 3 months I think, but I cover dozens of sites - so not too bad.
There was a site where I was tasked with reducing the incident rate. So we had an incentive plan. Hit X days without a lost time accident, everyone gets a pizza voucher. First target was 30 days. Hit it. Target went to 60 days. Hit it. Target went to 90. Hit it. Then 120 days. We had the tracker up on the screens throughout the plant. Common topic of conversation on the shop floor was "How many more days to the pizza voucher?". Gets to 117 days. Idiot is twirling a stick of wood around in his hand, accidently sticks it in his eye. Scratched cornea. He was almost lynched when the tracker got reset to zero! (I'd already ordered the bloody vouchers too)
M.
What would the outcome of any investigation be after that? Don't be a prat? Lost time about 3 months I think, but I cover dozens of sites - so not too bad.
There was a site where I was tasked with reducing the incident rate. So we had an incentive plan. Hit X days without a lost time accident, everyone gets a pizza voucher. First target was 30 days. Hit it. Target went to 60 days. Hit it. Target went to 90. Hit it. Then 120 days. We had the tracker up on the screens throughout the plant. Common topic of conversation on the shop floor was "How many more days to the pizza voucher?". Gets to 117 days. Idiot is twirling a stick of wood around in his hand, accidently sticks it in his eye. Scratched cornea. He was almost lynched when the tracker got reset to zero!
(I'd already ordered the bloody vouchers too)M.
It makes me chuckle in the police. I can deal with some bloke with a knife, talk people out of jumping out of a window, drive at 140mph. But I can't change a tyre on a car or a headlight as I'm not trained...
LosingGrip said:
What would the outcome of any investigation be after that? Don't be a prat?
It makes me chuckle in the police. I can deal with some bloke with a knife, talk people out of jumping out of a window, drive at 140mph. But I can't change a tyre on a car or a headlight as I'm not trained...
We have someone on light duties at work. Allowed to drive to work. Not allowed to drive FLT at work...It makes me chuckle in the police. I can deal with some bloke with a knife, talk people out of jumping out of a window, drive at 140mph. But I can't change a tyre on a car or a headlight as I'm not trained...
Mortarboard said:
It'll most likely be that someone somewhere reversed out and hit (or nearly hit) someone. It's got bugger all to do with leaving in cars in the event of an emergency. If it's truly an emergency where you need to drive away quickly, then your H&S folks need to be fired. There's very few scenarios where driving away is going to save your skin. (pun intended)
M.
I used to visit a site where parking to drive out was absolutely the rule for quick evacuation. But then, it was an explosives factory M.
marksx said:
Do you also seem to take pleasure in 'how bad' everything is/everyone is, and enjoy inhibiting people who are doing what they can and trying to do their best? Or is that just my EHS department?
An "inexperienced" safety person can often be like that, yup.By "inexperienced" I mean "not taken the time too see how a task is done"
Pointing out "bad stuff" doesn't fix a damn thing. Doing stuff about bad stuff does. And humans are notoriously unreliable at the best of times, so you're better off fixing the core issues anyway. We use a guide called "the Hierarchy of control". Telling folks not to do bad stuff is near the bottom of the list! So safety folks relying on that to make fixes usually end up just having repeated accidents. They're the ones with the bright coloured posters, usually.
A byproduct of "best" usually is safest as well. If a job can be done in three steps instead of five, then injuries can't happen on the two that are no longer done. To expand on "you can't fix stupid" - if you put a barrier between stupid and the stuff that's dangerous, then no-one has to faff about with "making sure folk do the right thing". Besides, if you can put the line "and this improvement will make the job safer", then it's usually much easier to get it funded/done
You'll very often hear "safety is everyone's responsibility". This is b
ks, quite frankly. People have accidents because they do hazardous things. It's safety's role to help identify, and help come up with solutions for those hazards. Sometimes you have short-sighted management that don't want to spend cash. Accidents are far more expensive than fixes.If your EHS team is telling you it's your fault, send them this link:
https://philladuke.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/an-ope...
Didn't follow the training? b
ks, training wasn't good enoughDidn't "pay attention"? b
ks, too hazardous an operation if you get injured if you lose attention for a secondDidn't have the correct PPE? b
ks, shouldn't be that close to danger to need PPE (PPE only reduces the effect of an accident, doesn't prevent it - should never be the only line of defence)M.
Mortarboard said:
An "inexperienced" safety person can often be like that, yup.
By "inexperienced" I mean "not taken the time too see how a task is done"
Pointing out "bad stuff" doesn't fix a damn thing. Doing stuff about bad stuff does. And humans are notoriously unreliable at the best of times, so you're better off fixing the core issues anyway. We use a guide called "the Hierarchy of control". Telling folks not to do bad stuff is near the bottom of the list! So safety folks relying on that to make fixes usually end up just having repeated accidents. They're the ones with the bright coloured posters, usually.
A byproduct of "best" usually is safest as well. If a job can be done in three steps instead of five, then injuries can't happen on the two that are no longer done. To expand on "you can't fix stupid" - if you put a barrier between stupid and the stuff that's dangerous, then no-one has to faff about with "making sure folk do the right thing". Besides, if you can put the line "and this improvement will make the job safer", then it's usually much easier to get it funded/done
You'll very often hear "safety is everyone's responsibility". This is bks, quite frankly. People have accidents because they do hazardous things. It's safety's role to help identify, and help come up with solutions for those hazards. Sometimes you have short-sighted management that don't want to spend cash. Accidents are far more expensive than fixes.
If your EHS team is telling you it's your fault, send them this link:
https://philladuke.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/an-ope...
Didn't follow the training? bks, training wasn't good enough
Didn't "pay attention"? bks, too hazardous an operation if you get injured if you lose attention for a second
Didn't have the correct PPE? bks, shouldn't be that close to danger to need PPE (PPE only reduces the effect of an accident, doesn't prevent it - should never be the only line of defence)
M.
It's not so much telling people not to do bad things, more that there will be something wrong, which admittedly there is quite a lot of recently, and it will be a walls up answer 'you can't do that, we'll stop everything', without offering any advice on how to correct the issue. I work in pharma and it seems to be a tussle between EHS and QA as to who can put the most blocks to actually getting anything done By "inexperienced" I mean "not taken the time too see how a task is done"
Pointing out "bad stuff" doesn't fix a damn thing. Doing stuff about bad stuff does. And humans are notoriously unreliable at the best of times, so you're better off fixing the core issues anyway. We use a guide called "the Hierarchy of control". Telling folks not to do bad stuff is near the bottom of the list! So safety folks relying on that to make fixes usually end up just having repeated accidents. They're the ones with the bright coloured posters, usually.
A byproduct of "best" usually is safest as well. If a job can be done in three steps instead of five, then injuries can't happen on the two that are no longer done. To expand on "you can't fix stupid" - if you put a barrier between stupid and the stuff that's dangerous, then no-one has to faff about with "making sure folk do the right thing". Besides, if you can put the line "and this improvement will make the job safer", then it's usually much easier to get it funded/done
You'll very often hear "safety is everyone's responsibility". This is b
ks, quite frankly. People have accidents because they do hazardous things. It's safety's role to help identify, and help come up with solutions for those hazards. Sometimes you have short-sighted management that don't want to spend cash. Accidents are far more expensive than fixes.If your EHS team is telling you it's your fault, send them this link:
https://philladuke.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/an-ope...
Didn't follow the training? b
ks, training wasn't good enoughDidn't "pay attention"? b
ks, too hazardous an operation if you get injured if you lose attention for a secondDidn't have the correct PPE? b
ks, shouldn't be that close to danger to need PPE (PPE only reduces the effect of an accident, doesn't prevent it - should never be the only line of defence)M.
Totally agree about simplifying processes, putting up barriers and removing the problem though. Over the years from incidents (both safety and quality) procedures have become so bloated and manual. The standard response to an incident seems to have been add some more lines to a procedure and add some further manual checks. Usually in response to manual checks being missed. Go figure!
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