Why is education so disliked by children and poorly promoted
Discussion
This is a question which has come to me many times and I'm not sure what causes it. I'm also not sure if it's a phenomenon which is more prevalent in some countries/cultures than others - it certainly seems to be very strong in the UK.
It's a long time since I was a school but even then, there seemed to be peer pressure not to do your best, that it was somehow bad to want to learn.
Certainly once I was out of that kind of anti-education culture, I felt I was more free to learn.
I was reminded by this over the weekend as I was sat talking with a friends teenage daughter and she was telling me how much she hated school and that she didn't see the point but when I dug a little deeper, she did enjoy learning about stuff but the school forced them into learning in a way that was uninteresting and she spoke about pressure from friends to not learn in a manner which I recognised from my youth.
This contrasts sharply with the single most capable youth I know (now late 20s), a lad whose parents took him out of school at about 8 because they felt the system was failing him. Mum was a teacher but she gave up work and she put together a home schooling package which ended up with him achieving outstanding exam results in his teens and went on to get a first class honours engineering degree.
Not everyone is able to do that with their kids so isn't a solution for the masses but once out of the confines of conventional education, not re-entering until university, he flourished.
I was born and brought up in an underprivileged working class environment and the other examples I give are similar so I'm not sure whether it's a cultural thing which is more prevalent in that kind of area but it seems to be uncool to learn and the schools seem more adept at preparing kids for failure rather than encouraging interest and personal development.
I'm really not sure why?
It's a long time since I was a school but even then, there seemed to be peer pressure not to do your best, that it was somehow bad to want to learn.
Certainly once I was out of that kind of anti-education culture, I felt I was more free to learn.
I was reminded by this over the weekend as I was sat talking with a friends teenage daughter and she was telling me how much she hated school and that she didn't see the point but when I dug a little deeper, she did enjoy learning about stuff but the school forced them into learning in a way that was uninteresting and she spoke about pressure from friends to not learn in a manner which I recognised from my youth.
This contrasts sharply with the single most capable youth I know (now late 20s), a lad whose parents took him out of school at about 8 because they felt the system was failing him. Mum was a teacher but she gave up work and she put together a home schooling package which ended up with him achieving outstanding exam results in his teens and went on to get a first class honours engineering degree.
Not everyone is able to do that with their kids so isn't a solution for the masses but once out of the confines of conventional education, not re-entering until university, he flourished.
I was born and brought up in an underprivileged working class environment and the other examples I give are similar so I'm not sure whether it's a cultural thing which is more prevalent in that kind of area but it seems to be uncool to learn and the schools seem more adept at preparing kids for failure rather than encouraging interest and personal development.
I'm really not sure why?
Pistom said:
I was reminded by this over the weekend as I was sat talking with a friends teenage daughter and she was telling me how much she hated school and that she didn't see the point but when I dug a little deeper, she did enjoy learning about stuff but the school forced them into learning in a way that was uninteresting and she spoke about pressure from friends to not learn in a manner which I recognised from my youth.
I'm really not sure why?
Here in the US, but we have a problem of "Teaching to the test", which may be why the teenager wasn't happy. Is it the same in the UK?I'm really not sure why?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_to_the_test
I went to state schools until the age of 12, then moved to a private school. The state schools all had this mentality but the private school did not.
Some black people will tell their friends that they are acting white if they are successful at work or in exams and it's the same awful mentality.
Some black people will tell their friends that they are acting white if they are successful at work or in exams and it's the same awful mentality.
Kids want to learn, they are little sponges for information. Parents want the best for their children, including education. Our rulers want what's best for them - cheap, poorly educated, obedient, slaves. So we get an education system that provides that.
George Carlin explained this very well, years ago.
George Carlin explained this very well, years ago.
Schools aren’t for learning. The primary purpose is to condition kids into the idea that sitting and having someone tell you what to do all day is good. If you don’t go along with that then school can be frustrating.
I never did that well at school because I found it really boring but I soak up new information like a sponge when I’m left to my own devices.
I never did that well at school because I found it really boring but I soak up new information like a sponge when I’m left to my own devices.
ZedLeg said:
Schools aren’t for learning. The primary purpose is to condition kids into the idea that sitting and having someone tell you what to do all day is good. If you don’t go along with that then school can be frustrating.
I never did that well at school because I found it really boring but I soak up new information like a sponge when I’m left to my own devices.
Really? Do you honestly believe that or is it a consequence of you not doing well at school and probably not enjoying it much?I never did that well at school because I found it really boring but I soak up new information like a sponge when I’m left to my own devices.
CharlesdeGaulle said:
ZedLeg said:
Schools aren’t for learning. The primary purpose is to condition kids into the idea that sitting and having someone tell you what to do all day is good. If you don’t go along with that then school can be frustrating.
I never did that well at school because I found it really boring but I soak up new information like a sponge when I’m left to my own devices.
Really? Do you honestly believe that or is it a consequence of you not doing well at school and probably not enjoying it much?I never did that well at school because I found it really boring but I soak up new information like a sponge when I’m left to my own devices.
Of course you get teachers who are better and will try and make the learning interesting but you’re ultimately constrained by the format.
grumbledoak said:
Kids want to learn, they are little sponges for information. Parents want the best for their children, including education. Our rulers want what's best for them - cheap, poorly educated, obedient, slaves. So we get an education system that provides that.
John Taylor Gatto: The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher
At my first school I had excellent teachers that could inspire and tolerate my eccentricities, together with small class sizes, so it's no great surprise that I thrived in that environment. I loved nothing more than studying and had a real passion for the classics.
At my second school it was all about obedience and the success of the school was paramount, whilst the success of the students was incidental to that. I found myself unable to comply, so the 5 years of education after the age of 13 was daily torture, being ridiculed and bullied constantly by teachers. Within 2 years my love of learning had been replaced by drinking, smoking and getting high. It destroyed my self-esteem and took me nearly 20 years to undo some of the damage.
I recognise what the OPs saying.
I went to a very poor comprehensive. If you stuck your head above the crowd and did well in exams you were bullied mercilessly.
The class clowns would literally be cheered on.
I've since been in 1 or two better schools as an adult and I was couldn't believe it when I was helping out in a PE class and fellow students were encouraging each other, even the weak ones, I'd never seen that before.
The mindset comes from the parents. If all the parents are recently ex-miners with a bitter hatred towards the Thatcher and the world the kids will reflect that mentality, and they did.
I went to a very poor comprehensive. If you stuck your head above the crowd and did well in exams you were bullied mercilessly.
The class clowns would literally be cheered on.
I've since been in 1 or two better schools as an adult and I was couldn't believe it when I was helping out in a PE class and fellow students were encouraging each other, even the weak ones, I'd never seen that before.
The mindset comes from the parents. If all the parents are recently ex-miners with a bitter hatred towards the Thatcher and the world the kids will reflect that mentality, and they did.
I think it's because schools don't actually care about kids - they care about exam results. If you think about it from a schools perspective they just want identikit kids who go through the system and come out the other side with the best possible results for the least effort. Anyone who is different is an issue.
Once the kids have results they get packaged off to uni before coming out with a degree and then, if they are really lucky, they get a job where they work the majority of their lives in a 9 to 5 working for someone else. Soon enough comes mortgages, car loans etc and people live for 2 weeks holiday a year.
As a kid would that appeal?
The alternative is that early on kids realise what they are good at and enjoy and are encouraged in that direction. They enjoy what they are doing which changes the entire outlook and changes the whole life path. I suspect you have to pay for the latter approach or DIY.
Once the kids have results they get packaged off to uni before coming out with a degree and then, if they are really lucky, they get a job where they work the majority of their lives in a 9 to 5 working for someone else. Soon enough comes mortgages, car loans etc and people live for 2 weeks holiday a year.
As a kid would that appeal?
The alternative is that early on kids realise what they are good at and enjoy and are encouraged in that direction. They enjoy what they are doing which changes the entire outlook and changes the whole life path. I suspect you have to pay for the latter approach or DIY.
IMHO
I suspect that the education system is created by teachers for teachers, as it worked for them to become educated and obtain qualifications and get a job, therefore, it must work. Does it work for millions of children who can’t wait to get out of the place? No.
When I was doing my MSc, we had loads of people from all over the world on courses. The 3 Danish lads on my course couldn’t believe that we had “double anything” (2 hours) - as research had proven in their country that people can’t really take in much after 45 minutes.
My youngest nephew had on his report card “that he finds it difficult to concentrate on reading, and I am concerned about his progress”. My sister said that after he had read 600 pages of Harry Potter in 5 days one Christmas, aged 6 1/2, she wasn’t concerned about his reading ability at all. He just didn’t want to read the boring stuff the school were giving him. Like many of his age - what he didn’t know about dinosaurs wasn’t worth knowing.
The “system” wants obedience, placid, hardworking, and mainly - a thankful workforce.
A truly free thinking, correctly educated population would create all sorts of problems!
I suspect that the education system is created by teachers for teachers, as it worked for them to become educated and obtain qualifications and get a job, therefore, it must work. Does it work for millions of children who can’t wait to get out of the place? No.
When I was doing my MSc, we had loads of people from all over the world on courses. The 3 Danish lads on my course couldn’t believe that we had “double anything” (2 hours) - as research had proven in their country that people can’t really take in much after 45 minutes.
My youngest nephew had on his report card “that he finds it difficult to concentrate on reading, and I am concerned about his progress”. My sister said that after he had read 600 pages of Harry Potter in 5 days one Christmas, aged 6 1/2, she wasn’t concerned about his reading ability at all. He just didn’t want to read the boring stuff the school were giving him. Like many of his age - what he didn’t know about dinosaurs wasn’t worth knowing.
The “system” wants obedience, placid, hardworking, and mainly - a thankful workforce.
A truly free thinking, correctly educated population would create all sorts of problems!
The usual tin foil hat theories going on here.
Try creating and teaching multiple lessons a day that account for 30 different learning styles, personality styles and IQs. It’s impossible to cover everyone to a good standard.
If everyone had 1 to 1 tuition it would be fantastic and allow so many more to thrive, but it’s just not realistic, unless teaching is put back onto parents of each child and the school system is abandoned altogether.
Schools have to try to do the best the can for the most pupils. It’s inevitable some will not do well in that environment.
Try creating and teaching multiple lessons a day that account for 30 different learning styles, personality styles and IQs. It’s impossible to cover everyone to a good standard.
If everyone had 1 to 1 tuition it would be fantastic and allow so many more to thrive, but it’s just not realistic, unless teaching is put back onto parents of each child and the school system is abandoned altogether.
Schools have to try to do the best the can for the most pupils. It’s inevitable some will not do well in that environment.
Beethree said:
The usual tin foil hat theories going on here.
Does every contrary opinion have to be dismissed as tinfoil hattery? When questioning the role of education in creating a compliant population lacking diversity of thought, such postulation and ready dismissal might be considered to confirm rather than deny that the desire to create obedience and subordination have been all too successful.Consider how, in both the US and the UK, the Prussian schooling system formed the basis of state education; a system characterised by compulsory attendance, standardised national tests, national age-graded curriculum, teacher colleges, the fragmenting of concepts into separate subjects with fixed periods of study, and the state ultimately asserting a superior claim to the child over the rights of the parents.
John Taylor Gatto said:
The Prussian mind, which carried the day, held a clear idea of what centralised schooling should deliver:
1) Obedient soldiers to the army;
2) Obedient workers for mines, factories, and farms;
3) Well-subordinated civil servants, trained in their function;
4) Well-subordinated clerks for industry;
5) Citizens who thought alike on most issues;
6) National uniformity in thought, word, and deed.
The area of individual volition for commoners was severely foreclosed by Prussian psychological training procedures drawn from the experience of animal husbandry and equestrian training, and also taken from past military experience.
Ruenzel, D., Paul, R., Grove, R. (2017). The Underground History of American Education, Volume I: An Intimate Investigation Into the Prison of Modern Schooling. United States: Valor Academy.1) Obedient soldiers to the army;
2) Obedient workers for mines, factories, and farms;
3) Well-subordinated civil servants, trained in their function;
4) Well-subordinated clerks for industry;
5) Citizens who thought alike on most issues;
6) National uniformity in thought, word, and deed.
The area of individual volition for commoners was severely foreclosed by Prussian psychological training procedures drawn from the experience of animal husbandry and equestrian training, and also taken from past military experience.
Thomas Alexander said:
We believe however that a careful study of the Prussian school system will convince any unbiased reader that the Prussian citizen cannot be free to do and act for himself; that the Prussian is to a large measure enslaved through the medium of his school that his learning instead of making him his own master forges the chain by which he is held in servitude; that the whole scheme of Prussian elementary education is shaped with the express purpose of making ninety five out of every hundred citizens subservient to the ruling house and to the state.
Alexander, T. (1918). The Prussian Elementary Schools. United States: New York.I spent some time in the bush Africa and was impressed that the kids would walk miles to school and back on bush roads and their parents would pay some small amount for their tuition every day.
They and their parents saw the value of education.
I used to drive past them in a Landcruiser covering them in dust!
However I was helping to develop their water resources in the bush.
If parents don't understand the value of learning then it will be difficult for the children to do so.
They and their parents saw the value of education.
I used to drive past them in a Landcruiser covering them in dust!
However I was helping to develop their water resources in the bush.
If parents don't understand the value of learning then it will be difficult for the children to do so.
ChocolateFrog said:
I recognise what the OPs saying.
I went to a very poor comprehensive. If you stuck your head above the crowd and did well in exams you were bullied mercilessly.
The class clowns would literally be cheered on.
I've since been in 1 or two better schools as an adult and I was couldn't believe it when I was helping out in a PE class and fellow students were encouraging each other, even the weak ones, I'd never seen that before.
The mindset comes from the parents. If all the parents are recently ex-miners with a bitter hatred towards the Thatcher and the world the kids will reflect that mentality, and they did.
Similar here, I went to a pretty poor comp - which was failing massively and has since been converted to an Academy and is doing a little better now that it has extra investment / sponsorship etc.I went to a very poor comprehensive. If you stuck your head above the crowd and did well in exams you were bullied mercilessly.
The class clowns would literally be cheered on.
I've since been in 1 or two better schools as an adult and I was couldn't believe it when I was helping out in a PE class and fellow students were encouraging each other, even the weak ones, I'd never seen that before.
The mindset comes from the parents. If all the parents are recently ex-miners with a bitter hatred towards the Thatcher and the world the kids will reflect that mentality, and they did.
Lots of the parents at the school were unemployed, ex-miners, ex-shipbuilders ... or had very blue collar roles (security staff, shop workers, cleaners, etc.). Zero encouragement in anything other than football for the lads, and boy chasing for the girls.
The outcome was lots of kids destined to be unemployed or in very basic roles with zero desire to achieve more. We had the first year-group pregnancy at 13 - and it wasn't the last. As it happens that young girl was conceived when her mother was 12-13 and also had her own child at the same age too ... grandparent at 26, great grandparent at 39. This wasn't considered shocking either (shockingly).
Surprisingly a reasonable number of kids from my year group have gone on to do pretty well for themselves (a couple of Presidents for american/swiss finance houses / corporate counsel and barristers / CFO - CEO - directors in public sector and large private sector entities)
paul.deitch said:
If parents don't understand the value of learning then it will be difficult for the children to do so.
This, and how many children have fallen even further behind as their parents had no interest in what they were doing during Covid? How many children didn't have a laptop or access to the internet so couldn't even join the online classes that were being run?My ex wife's family don't have a job between them, do you think they bother taking an interest in what their children are doing at school or even encourage them? During Covid all of them said they weren't given any work to do by the school and the parents didn't even question it.
Now some of the children are at college, but they don't actually bother going, they have effectively left school now and just lie in bed all day.
The inevitability is they are the 3rd generation of the family who are effectively going to never work and get pregnant at 17 by some loser who lived a couple of roads away.
It was their destiny since the day they were born, you don't need any education to sit on your arse all day doing nothing and breeding if the state are going to pickup the tab.
If the parents didn't bother with an education or work, what example is this setting to the children?
The good schools that have high pass rates have an unlimited customer base to select from. In our local town one girls school has the highest pass rate, looks like an office block and is very clinical, and oust poor performing pupils to keep their pass rate higher. There is another girls school, based in a traditional school mansion, very good pass rate, but I think produces more rounded and better children (and that's not pregnancy!) 
I eye poor schools with suspicion when they "Academise" themselves. More often than not you get the intakes increased from say 2 classes to 5, mostly because the Head of a 5 stream school will get paid more than the 2 stream school.
I used to dislike education when I was younger. It was very rote learning based, whereas today I think kids that have half an interest are much more engaged. At Mrs V.'s primary school, I actively dislike the more often than not successful parents who moan about having to read to their child or do some homework with them in the evening. These are normally the ones that park on double yellow lines or zigzags and trot out the infamous dumbf
k phrase: "They're at school all day, what do they do and why do I have to read to them?"
I eye poor schools with suspicion when they "Academise" themselves. More often than not you get the intakes increased from say 2 classes to 5, mostly because the Head of a 5 stream school will get paid more than the 2 stream school.
I used to dislike education when I was younger. It was very rote learning based, whereas today I think kids that have half an interest are much more engaged. At Mrs V.'s primary school, I actively dislike the more often than not successful parents who moan about having to read to their child or do some homework with them in the evening. These are normally the ones that park on double yellow lines or zigzags and trot out the infamous dumbf
k phrase: "They're at school all day, what do they do and why do I have to read to them?"For me at least, education was like this:
Dyslexia and ADHD, my school reports are all the same "potential" "if only he applied himself" (and my personal favourite) "I am not sure what game Dan thinks he is playing but I fear he may at some point be the loser!" I did ok in my GCSE exams though (1 x A, 3 x B, 3 x C and 1 x D). My A levels were ok too 2 x B.
I was one of the class clowns and my pier group was a bunch of guys and girls who considered anyone studying and doing well as a teachers pet but it was a case of leave them to it as we will all be working from them one day
I guess we were in the middle of the academia roster.
There was of course many other pier groups, most of them dedicated to bullying those doing well. The school wasn't interested in stopping these groups but would spend hours with the likes of me in detention for being a bit of a clown.
I guess those kids at the bottom had been written off and the class clowns like me they could target because we were overtly a little disruptive, but rather than look at reasons why I might be bored or not fully engaged they wanted me to learn like everyone else, something I have rarely been capable of doing.
Dyslexia and ADHD, my school reports are all the same "potential" "if only he applied himself" (and my personal favourite) "I am not sure what game Dan thinks he is playing but I fear he may at some point be the loser!" I did ok in my GCSE exams though (1 x A, 3 x B, 3 x C and 1 x D). My A levels were ok too 2 x B.
I was one of the class clowns and my pier group was a bunch of guys and girls who considered anyone studying and doing well as a teachers pet but it was a case of leave them to it as we will all be working from them one day
I guess we were in the middle of the academia roster.There was of course many other pier groups, most of them dedicated to bullying those doing well. The school wasn't interested in stopping these groups but would spend hours with the likes of me in detention for being a bit of a clown.
I guess those kids at the bottom had been written off and the class clowns like me they could target because we were overtly a little disruptive, but rather than look at reasons why I might be bored or not fully engaged they wanted me to learn like everyone else, something I have rarely been capable of doing.
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff