Having kids is women's work
Discussion
I've long since put the peak of Western Civilisation at November 1959, at the point North By Northwest was released.
Men were men, women powerful and independent.
(Recently I watched Mississippi Burning again and hadn't quite realised how late race (and sexuality) equality was)
Getting back on topic however, I think we've become distracted by 'stuff' and the need to earn money to buy 'stuff'.
My job existed almost exactly as it is now, in the 1950's, I know without all the stuff I'd be much happier back then.
Thinking about women (from a male perspective) my daughter (13) is inheriting a far less equal world. Her rights as female are now lower than 20 years ago and getting lower all the time.
Her right to be a woman I think is worth less.
Yes she can see women on the TV playing football, we enjoyed it, yes she can chat to the female engineers I work with, they're brilliant. But as a woman, as a female a group and an identity, I'm upset the way what makes women amazing is being devalued.
TLDR:
I think the role of a women is very special, every single one of us is here because of a mum.
Mothers are the most special individuals in any species.
However I think it's a shame woman have had to (IMO) almost destroy what makes them amazing, because us men are on the whole, simple minded idiots.
Men were men, women powerful and independent.
(Recently I watched Mississippi Burning again and hadn't quite realised how late race (and sexuality) equality was)
Getting back on topic however, I think we've become distracted by 'stuff' and the need to earn money to buy 'stuff'.
My job existed almost exactly as it is now, in the 1950's, I know without all the stuff I'd be much happier back then.
Thinking about women (from a male perspective) my daughter (13) is inheriting a far less equal world. Her rights as female are now lower than 20 years ago and getting lower all the time.
Her right to be a woman I think is worth less.
Yes she can see women on the TV playing football, we enjoyed it, yes she can chat to the female engineers I work with, they're brilliant. But as a woman, as a female a group and an identity, I'm upset the way what makes women amazing is being devalued.
TLDR:
I think the role of a women is very special, every single one of us is here because of a mum.
Mothers are the most special individuals in any species.
However I think it's a shame woman have had to (IMO) almost destroy what makes them amazing, because us men are on the whole, simple minded idiots.
HAVING a child is, of course, a woman's business - for purely biological reasons.
Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
I am (by choice) the sole breadwinner, and the OH is the full-time, stay at home care giver/mother/housewife/whatever the correct term is. I would happily swap roles with her but that is not an option without a significant drop in income,
I have a son and daughter. We emphasise the point with my daughter that all doors are open to her, including being a mother. It is not a consolation prize should you fail in your career, it is a perfectly valid and natural choice. There is too much pressure on girls to shun the 'traditional motherhood' role IMHO, and many would be very happy embracing their femininity. However, should she choose another path then that is also fine.
I have a son and daughter. We emphasise the point with my daughter that all doors are open to her, including being a mother. It is not a consolation prize should you fail in your career, it is a perfectly valid and natural choice. There is too much pressure on girls to shun the 'traditional motherhood' role IMHO, and many would be very happy embracing their femininity. However, should she choose another path then that is also fine.
Correct. Me and the Mrs both work, and whilst we aren't close to the pistonheads average we probably earn about £100k between us. It's still not really enough.. She could stop working, I could take more out of my business and pay her as a director or something and save on £1500pm on childcare but it still wouldn't be enough. Life is too expensive and everyone seems to have their hand in my pocket for something..
Eric Mc said:
HAVING a child is, of course, a woman's business - for purely biological reasons.
Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
I was about to reply to your post…then the number of your posts caught my eye. 199,000? Really? Over more than 21 years? Blimey. That is 15 posts a day for more than 21 years. Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
Anyway…having and raising children has been the predominant role for women for almost all societies for almost all of human history (to the extent we know). The current situation with shared parenting and with both parents working full time is very much not “normal”. However, owning slaves, domestic violence, racial discrimination, homophobia and lots of other unpleasantness are also “normal” for human societies so I am not holding up “normal” as desirable or good.
Shared parenting and women working full time has brought many advantages for men and women but there is almost always a price to be paid. As the OP has noted, whereas in the past one person could support a household, nowadays it is almost a requirement that both parents work. I expect that the declining birth rate and shrinking population is also linked to women working. All unintended consequences of sexual equality.
rodericb said:
Mojooo said:
dundarach said:
Thinking about women (from a male perspective) my daughter (13) is inheriting a far less equal world. Her rights as female are now lower than 20 years ago and getting lower all the time.
Really? How do you figure?Skeptisk said:
Eric Mc said:
HAVING a child is, of course, a woman's business - for purely biological reasons.
Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
I was about to reply to your post…then the number of your posts caught my eye. 199,000? Really? Over more than 21 years? Blimey. That is 15 posts a day for more than 21 years. Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
Anyway…having and raising children has been the predominant role for women for almost all societies for almost all of human history (to the extent we know). The current situation with shared parenting and with both parents working full time is very much not “normal”. However, owning slaves, domestic violence, racial discrimination, homophobia and lots of other unpleasantness are also “normal” for human societies so I am not holding up “normal” as desirable or good.
Shared parenting and women working full time has brought many advantages for men and women but there is almost always a price to be paid. As the OP has noted, whereas in the past one person could support a household, nowadays it is almost a requirement that both parents work. I expect that the declining birth rate and shrinking population is also linked to women working. All unintended consequences of sexual equality.
My mother was 'old fashioned' I guess by modern standards and brought up 5 of us - we all came home from school for what we called 'dinner' at lunchtime and then tea at 4:30pm. She worked bloody hard while Dad was out at work earning the means to do it all. She always regarded it as a career in itself and the most important job that could be done.
I personally feel privileged to have been brought up in those circumstances.
We can't turn back the clock of course but I do wonder if the current 'norm' has consequences down the line.
We had none of the 'stuff' considered essential to modern living but, for sure, we were happy and a solid family unit - none of us ever got into trouble
Edited by Lotobear on Monday 10th April 16:27
Lotobear said:
It's a difficult subject to comment upon without risking being labelled a mysoginist or sexist (or worse) by so called 'progressives' but this pretty much sums it up for me.
My mother was 'old fashioned' I guess by modern standards and brought up 5 of us - we all came home from school for what we called 'dinner' at lunchtime and then tea at 4:30pm. She worked bloody hard while Dad was out at work earning the means to do it all. She always regarded it as a career in itself and the most important job that could be done.
I personally feel privileged to have been brought up in those circumstances.
We can't turn back the clock of course but I do wonder if the current 'norm' has consequences down the line.
We had none of the 'stuff' considered essential to modern living but, for sure, we were happy and a solid family unit - none of us ever got into trouble
Societal changes have seen enormous changes for women, which are positive and to be celebrated, but in some ways they've impacted choices.My mother was 'old fashioned' I guess by modern standards and brought up 5 of us - we all came home from school for what we called 'dinner' at lunchtime and then tea at 4:30pm. She worked bloody hard while Dad was out at work earning the means to do it all. She always regarded it as a career in itself and the most important job that could be done.
I personally feel privileged to have been brought up in those circumstances.
We can't turn back the clock of course but I do wonder if the current 'norm' has consequences down the line.
We had none of the 'stuff' considered essential to modern living but, for sure, we were happy and a solid family unit - none of us ever got into trouble
Edited by Lotobear on Monday 10th April 16:27
Your last couple of sentences, about your experiences of being a child, sum it up for me though, and why sexism or misogyny aren't a part of it. The impacts seem to more greatly affect the structure of a family, specifically children, rather than just women. Women may find it harder to just be a mother today, or may prefer to follow a career and strive for individual achievement and success, but either way it's the chidren who face the consequences of that.
Where once society was viewed in terms of the family unit, it's now seen in terms of the individual. The priority is no longer the family, or the children, and instead everything comes second to the sucess, happiness, wishes and desires of the individual.
Whether those thing are mutually exclusive, or will evolve into something better, and whether those consequences are good or bad, remains to be seen.
There’s a lot to be said for the housing boom under the boomer generation.
My mother, aged 78, tells of how my folks went to the bank for their first mortgage and the loan amount was calculated on dads wage only. Mum asked why her income couldn’t be considered and was stared down by the bank manager. That was unheard of and highly irregular.
Ten years later she needed a part time job to keep the household afloat, although that may have partly been due to inflation.
15 years after that I couldn’t afford to buy my own flat on a graduate salary. Missed the property boom and had to rent til I met my wife a decade later and then we could buy somewhere “ok” on joint income.
Then kids come along. My wife is the stay home mother. I’m on 60k a year. It’s not enough - I’m wearing ten year old clothes and we haven’t been on holiday since our honeymoon 11 years ago.
She’s idly looking for a 2 day a week job, mainly so we can go on holiday. But what a difference it would make if we both had full time jobs. We’d have the same sort of disposable income as my parents had when I was 10, and only my dad worked.
Is it house prices? Partly. But we buy more stuff, and it’s stuff you need not just want. Stuff doesn’t last as long any more. More services on subscription than ever before. Higher energy costs. Car repairs are damnably expensive and car owning is mental money if you want to avoid the spectre of £1000 bills every time a warning light comes on.
My mother, aged 78, tells of how my folks went to the bank for their first mortgage and the loan amount was calculated on dads wage only. Mum asked why her income couldn’t be considered and was stared down by the bank manager. That was unheard of and highly irregular.
Ten years later she needed a part time job to keep the household afloat, although that may have partly been due to inflation.
15 years after that I couldn’t afford to buy my own flat on a graduate salary. Missed the property boom and had to rent til I met my wife a decade later and then we could buy somewhere “ok” on joint income.
Then kids come along. My wife is the stay home mother. I’m on 60k a year. It’s not enough - I’m wearing ten year old clothes and we haven’t been on holiday since our honeymoon 11 years ago.
She’s idly looking for a 2 day a week job, mainly so we can go on holiday. But what a difference it would make if we both had full time jobs. We’d have the same sort of disposable income as my parents had when I was 10, and only my dad worked.
Is it house prices? Partly. But we buy more stuff, and it’s stuff you need not just want. Stuff doesn’t last as long any more. More services on subscription than ever before. Higher energy costs. Car repairs are damnably expensive and car owning is mental money if you want to avoid the spectre of £1000 bills every time a warning light comes on.
Skeptisk said:
Eric Mc said:
HAVING a child is, of course, a woman's business - for purely biological reasons.
Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
I was about to reply to your post…then the number of your posts caught my eye. 199,000? Really? Over more than 21 years? Blimey. That is 15 posts a day for more than 21 years. Caring, looking after and nurturing a child is the responsibility of those adults who have either a parental involvement or a professional involvement (teachers etc) in the development of the child.
Whether these people are male or female is irrelevant.
anywho - the actual having of children is the sole preserve of women (at least until some bright spark invents birthing vats). The bringing up of said kids needs to be the preserve of the parents - however the lesson we still seem not to have learned is that it is virtually impossible to have it all. If we want to have a well adjusted society I suspect we should go back somewhat to a traditional nuclear family, whether the mother or father is the breadwinner is in all honesty irrelevant (to a degree).
I agree with the OP in as much as the biggest con-job Western society pulled was to pretend that 'things' could be had, and be endlessly forthcoming, with no societal cost
Edited by DodgyGeezer on Monday 10th April 17:46
Randy Winkman said:
I don't see how the UK compete with the rest of the world if only half it's population can go out to work. Think of all of the talent in the other 50% that would be wasted.
That assumes that 100% of the talent is talented talent.That said, the UK was once one of the world's most successsful countries when half the population didn't work. Today though, the UK couldn't compete, or even function if half the workforce stayed at home. The genie is already out of the bottle, and we've created a society where the majority have to go to work, whether they want to or not.
For men of course that's always been the case, but for a long time it was a choice for women, either to bring in some extra household income, or to be independent.
Skeptisk said:
I was about to reply to your post…then the number of your posts caught my eye. 199,000? Really? Over more than 21 years? Blimey. That is 15 posts a day for more than 21 years.
Anyway…having and raising children has been the predominant role for women for almost all societies for almost all of human history (to the extent we know). The current situation with shared parenting and with both parents working full time is very much not “normal”. However, owning slaves, domestic violence, racial discrimination, homophobia and lots of other unpleasantness are also “normal” for human societies so I am not holding up “normal” as desirable or good.
Shared parenting and women working full time has brought many advantages for men and women but there is almost always a price to be paid. As the OP has noted, whereas in the past one person could support a household, nowadays it is almost a requirement that both parents work. I expect that the declining birth rate and shrinking population is also linked to women working. All unintended consequences of sexual equality.
I pay no attention to my post count and I wish others did the same.Anyway…having and raising children has been the predominant role for women for almost all societies for almost all of human history (to the extent we know). The current situation with shared parenting and with both parents working full time is very much not “normal”. However, owning slaves, domestic violence, racial discrimination, homophobia and lots of other unpleasantness are also “normal” for human societies so I am not holding up “normal” as desirable or good.
Shared parenting and women working full time has brought many advantages for men and women but there is almost always a price to be paid. As the OP has noted, whereas in the past one person could support a household, nowadays it is almost a requirement that both parents work. I expect that the declining birth rate and shrinking population is also linked to women working. All unintended consequences of sexual equality.
Parents are responsible for their children - full stop. How they share those responsibilities is up to them - but share they should.
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