Solicitors bill - What do they charge for?
Discussion
We have just received a final bill from a firm of solicitors for some work involving mine & my sister's mum.
My sister dealt with the firm, and constantly complained how she had to keep emailing for answers and generally chasing stuff.
Looking at the bill, they charge for the following;
'Email out...composing email'
'Email in.....reviewing incoming email'
These are £25-£28 each, depending on the hourly rate which increased over the two years. The ledger is full of them but it's to be expected.
My sister is a little shocked at the final bill of over £3k. We have looked at the ledger and there are several entries for the same day of 'reviewing incoming email', but one of these might be an email from my sister just replying "Great, thanks for that, have a nice weekend".
This seems to have been added to the bill. Is it just an automated logging system which gets auto added to the bill?
Another email is us chasing an answer, and the solicitor apologising for not getting back to us and actually saying 'it was her fault entirely for not replying earlier. I will be in touch soon'. Again, the email to them and back is charged on the invoice.
Can we challenge these? Will the firm be aware of what they are charging for or do they just blindly invoice the client?
My sister dealt with the firm, and constantly complained how she had to keep emailing for answers and generally chasing stuff.
Looking at the bill, they charge for the following;
'Email out...composing email'
'Email in.....reviewing incoming email'
These are £25-£28 each, depending on the hourly rate which increased over the two years. The ledger is full of them but it's to be expected.
My sister is a little shocked at the final bill of over £3k. We have looked at the ledger and there are several entries for the same day of 'reviewing incoming email', but one of these might be an email from my sister just replying "Great, thanks for that, have a nice weekend".
This seems to have been added to the bill. Is it just an automated logging system which gets auto added to the bill?
Another email is us chasing an answer, and the solicitor apologising for not getting back to us and actually saying 'it was her fault entirely for not replying earlier. I will be in touch soon'. Again, the email to them and back is charged on the invoice.
Can we challenge these? Will the firm be aware of what they are charging for or do they just blindly invoice the client?
It's very often the case that solicitors break down an hour into ten 'units', such that if their hourly rate is £200 then it's really £20 per unit. They will never charge less than one unit for doing anything, so even if the sum total of work they have done on a matter on a given day is glance at an email saying' Thanks', that will (or at least can) go down as one unit. When I worked in a law firm this did strike me as a bit sharp, but ultimately it's not possible to charge to the second so there is a logic to it. The sort of work I did meant I was usually spending big chunks of time on the same thing so I can hand on heart say my clients never got overcharged as a result of this. However if you worked in, say, the property department, where you might be working on lots of different-but-all-quite-similar matters all with little emails being pinged about left right and centre, then you could rack up billable units quite a way in excess of the actual time spent.
As for challenging it...no harm in quibbling and seeing if they'll knock a bit off out of the goodness of their hearts, but I really wouldn't fancy formally challenging a law firm over their fees - that's one contract they'll have locked down tight.
As for challenging it...no harm in quibbling and seeing if they'll knock a bit off out of the goodness of their hearts, but I really wouldn't fancy formally challenging a law firm over their fees - that's one contract they'll have locked down tight.
Starting point would be to review the initial client care letter which should have set out their estimate of expected costs. Traditionally, solicitors charge in 6 minute blocks so "1 unit" is 6 minutes, regardless of time actually incurred so that 2 minute phone call would likely be charged as 1 unit.
Solicitors certainly do charge for reviewing incoming correspondence but clearly there's a difference between a lengthy incoming email with numerous points to be addressed and a simple "thanks, all noted". Likewise the charging rate should really reflect the level of complexity in the work.
There might be various reasons why the initial estimate has been exceeded but the solicitor should have told you the reason for this and given you an updated estimate.
Follow their complaints procedure if you think you have been overcharged. You can escalate the complaint to the Legal Ombudsman - that costs the firm £400 so often they will be keen to avoid that.
If you still can't agree, you can apply to the court but if the bill is "only" £3k it might not be worth the hassle, see:
https://www.gov.uk/challenge-solicitors-bill
Solicitors certainly do charge for reviewing incoming correspondence but clearly there's a difference between a lengthy incoming email with numerous points to be addressed and a simple "thanks, all noted". Likewise the charging rate should really reflect the level of complexity in the work.
There might be various reasons why the initial estimate has been exceeded but the solicitor should have told you the reason for this and given you an updated estimate.
Follow their complaints procedure if you think you have been overcharged. You can escalate the complaint to the Legal Ombudsman - that costs the firm £400 so often they will be keen to avoid that.
If you still can't agree, you can apply to the court but if the bill is "only" £3k it might not be worth the hassle, see:
https://www.gov.uk/challenge-solicitors-bill
You haven’t said what sort of work the solicitor was doing for you. If it was a contentious you can ask for the bill to be taxed.
https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/legal-choices/got-...
https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/legal-choices/got-...
bad company said:
You haven’t said what sort of work the solicitor was doing for you. If it was a contentious you can ask for the bill to be taxed.
https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/legal-choices/got-...
It was to challenge the local authority about care home fees and their valuation on mum's house. I don't really understand it so my sister dealt with it.https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/legal-choices/got-...
The ledger is broke down into 0.6mins as mentioned above by someone else.
It just seems unfair to charge us for my sister emailing (at the end of an email discussion of 2-3 emails) 'thanks, stay safe' (at the height of CV19).
Also, she wasn't impressed by the service so had to keep chasing. It seems we've been charged for that when it is their fault in not replying.
Its not a great deal of money, but it could be into the hundreds, who knows. This money has to come out of mums pot, and she doesn't have that much left.
We will be having a discussion with them about this, I just wanted to get some thoughts from others, first.
Fastchas said:
bad company said:
You haven’t said what sort of work the solicitor was doing for you. If it was a contentious you can ask for the bill to be taxed.
https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/legal-choices/got-...
It was to challenge the local authority about care home fees and their valuation on mum's house. I don't really understand it so my sister dealt with it.https://www.legalchoices.org.uk/legal-choices/got-...
The ledger is broke down into 0.6mins as mentioned above by someone else.
It just seems unfair to charge us for my sister emailing (at the end of an email discussion of 2-3 emails) 'thanks, stay safe' (at the height of CV19).
Also, she wasn't impressed by the service so had to keep chasing. It seems we've been charged for that when it is their fault in not replying.
Its not a great deal of money, but it could be into the hundreds, who knows. This money has to come out of mums pot, and she doesn't have that much left.
We will be having a discussion with them about this, I just wanted to get some thoughts from others, first.
https://www.gov.uk/challenge-solicitors-bill
Update on this;
I challenged the bill and the solicitor sent an email offering £500 off, very quickly.
My sister and I identified some 30 emails to the firm that were mostly chasing a response. The offer of £500 includes VAT so by working out the charges for each email (around £28), we reckon this is a refund for some 15 emails.
Ok, the bill was for just over £3k, but this is mum's money and she has gotten to the bottom of her pot of money now. She may have to move care home as this one is too expensive. As a dementia sufferer it will be really traumatic to her. She is settled into her surroundings and moving somewhere new will be difficult.
It's really disappointing that a firm of solicitors think they can overcharge for a service, and are so ready to credit some if challenged. It's like they have their hand in mum's purse, helping themselves to her last ££'s.
I have called the firm back. The solicitor is now on maternity leave, so I am awaiting a call back from her manager or someone else in the firm. We said we expect nearer £1k to be refunded.
I paid the bill, so as not to incur any charges so I doubt they will be in a rush to repay (although the first letter offering a credit arrived promptly).
Is there anything else I can argue, regarding the above?
I challenged the bill and the solicitor sent an email offering £500 off, very quickly.
My sister and I identified some 30 emails to the firm that were mostly chasing a response. The offer of £500 includes VAT so by working out the charges for each email (around £28), we reckon this is a refund for some 15 emails.
Ok, the bill was for just over £3k, but this is mum's money and she has gotten to the bottom of her pot of money now. She may have to move care home as this one is too expensive. As a dementia sufferer it will be really traumatic to her. She is settled into her surroundings and moving somewhere new will be difficult.
It's really disappointing that a firm of solicitors think they can overcharge for a service, and are so ready to credit some if challenged. It's like they have their hand in mum's purse, helping themselves to her last ££'s.
I have called the firm back. The solicitor is now on maternity leave, so I am awaiting a call back from her manager or someone else in the firm. We said we expect nearer £1k to be refunded.
I paid the bill, so as not to incur any charges so I doubt they will be in a rush to repay (although the first letter offering a credit arrived promptly).
Is there anything else I can argue, regarding the above?
bad company said:
Fastchas said:
I paid the bill, so as not to incur any charges
Why did you do that? They can’t impose any charges if you query their bill.My gut feeling OP is that if they will almost certainly knock the £1k off if that's what you're seeking. Complaints are a major ball ache for solicitors as you can go to the Legal Ombudsman etc and any hint of dishonesty in their charges could result in a professional conduct complaint to the SRA.
I worked in IT for a large legal firm. 6 mins was the smallest amount of time they could charge for so if something was done and took a minute, it was charged for 6.
I worked on the IT side and the systems were setup to automate all of this. They would email and call from a central case management system that tracked the time taken and added it to the bill automatically.
I worked on the IT side and the systems were setup to automate all of this. They would email and call from a central case management system that tracked the time taken and added it to the bill automatically.
Fastchas said:
Update on this;
I challenged the bill and the solicitor sent an email offering £500 off, very quickly.
My sister and I identified some 30 emails to the firm that were mostly chasing a response. The offer of £500 includes VAT so by working out the charges for each email (around £28), we reckon this is a refund for some 15 emails.
Ok, the bill was for just over £3k, but this is mum's money and she has gotten to the bottom of her pot of money now She may have to move care home as this one is too expensive. As a dementia sufferer it will be really traumatic to her. She is settled into her surroundings and moving somewhere new will be difficult.
It's really disappointing that a firm of solicitors think they can overcharge for a service, and are so ready to credit some if challenged. It's like they have their hand in mum's purse, helping themselves to her last ££'s.
I have called the firm back. The solicitor is now on maternity leave, so I am awaiting a call back from her manager or someone else in the firm. We said we expect nearer £1k to be refunded.
I paid the bill, so as not to incur any charges so I doubt they will be in a rush to repay (although the first letter offering a credit arrived promptly).
Is there anything else I can argue, regarding the above?
Are you sure about this?I challenged the bill and the solicitor sent an email offering £500 off, very quickly.
My sister and I identified some 30 emails to the firm that were mostly chasing a response. The offer of £500 includes VAT so by working out the charges for each email (around £28), we reckon this is a refund for some 15 emails.
Ok, the bill was for just over £3k, but this is mum's money and she has gotten to the bottom of her pot of money now She may have to move care home as this one is too expensive. As a dementia sufferer it will be really traumatic to her. She is settled into her surroundings and moving somewhere new will be difficult.
It's really disappointing that a firm of solicitors think they can overcharge for a service, and are so ready to credit some if challenged. It's like they have their hand in mum's purse, helping themselves to her last ££'s.
I have called the firm back. The solicitor is now on maternity leave, so I am awaiting a call back from her manager or someone else in the firm. We said we expect nearer £1k to be refunded.
I paid the bill, so as not to incur any charges so I doubt they will be in a rush to repay (although the first letter offering a credit arrived promptly).
Is there anything else I can argue, regarding the above?
My mother in law has dementia and is in a care home. The fees are close to 6k per month IIRC, they are being paid for by the sale of her home, and savings, various allowances that she is allowed, private and state pension. She will almost certainly spend all of her money, although I believe the state allows you to keep your last £25k.
So with respect to your relative, the care fees across care homes are broadly similar, if she is in early stages then there is a real chance that all of her money will be spent, however if she lives longer than the amount of money she has left, then the state pick up the tab and don't come chasing the estate for it ( as there is none left). They will only chase you if she had an asset ( e.g.) house that someone was living in, and it hadn't been sold to fund the care. At that point once the house is sold, a charge will be levied by the council (which you can dispute to an extent) and it is paid for out of the inheritance.
Had to get a few documents notorized for my wedding earlier this year. We turned up to the appointment.
The girl on the desk forgot to tell the solicitor we were in the meeting room.
After 30 mins we popped out and we enquired about the wait.
The appologetic solicitor appeared a few minutes later after b
king the girl on the desk and stamped all of our paper work for free as we had waited so long.
So in my recent experience Solicitors dont charge.
The girl on the desk forgot to tell the solicitor we were in the meeting room.
After 30 mins we popped out and we enquired about the wait.
The appologetic solicitor appeared a few minutes later after b
king the girl on the desk and stamped all of our paper work for free as we had waited so long. So in my recent experience Solicitors dont charge.
Some of them just take the piss. I can think of two instances immediately...
My uncle was recently dealing with another uncle's estate. The solicitor, basically, would do nothing to progress anything until they were chased. Then they charged for picking the phone up when you chased them. This went on for months.
My parents had their wills done via a building society at no cost to themselves. If they needed an amend to either will they'd contact the solicitor who undertook the work on behalf of the building society. The amended will would always come back with something new in it that they couldn't make sense of because it was written in legal jargon, so they'd have to enquire about that and, needless to say, the enquiry would be subject to a charge. Because it was a service offered via the building society the solicitor just saw it as a cash machine and would pull the same stunt every time.
My uncle was recently dealing with another uncle's estate. The solicitor, basically, would do nothing to progress anything until they were chased. Then they charged for picking the phone up when you chased them. This went on for months.
My parents had their wills done via a building society at no cost to themselves. If they needed an amend to either will they'd contact the solicitor who undertook the work on behalf of the building society. The amended will would always come back with something new in it that they couldn't make sense of because it was written in legal jargon, so they'd have to enquire about that and, needless to say, the enquiry would be subject to a charge. Because it was a service offered via the building society the solicitor just saw it as a cash machine and would pull the same stunt every time.
MitchT said:
Some of them just take the piss. I can think of two instances immediately...
My uncle was recently dealing with another uncle's estate. The solicitor, basically, would do nothing to progress anything until they were chased. Then they charged for picking the phone up when you chased them. This went on for months.
My parents had their wills done via a building society at no cost to themselves. If they needed an amend to either will they'd contact the solicitor who undertook the work on behalf of the building society. The amended will would always come back with something new in it that they couldn't make sense of because it was written in legal jargon, so they'd have to enquire about that and, needless to say, the enquiry would be subject to a charge. Because it was a service offered via the building society the solicitor just saw it as a cash machine and would pull the same stunt every time.
We have identified, on the ledger she provided, 6 emails from my sister chasing a response over three months. The solicitor emailed back, apologising for radio silence and would get back to us. Nothing else other than that in that email.My uncle was recently dealing with another uncle's estate. The solicitor, basically, would do nothing to progress anything until they were chased. Then they charged for picking the phone up when you chased them. This went on for months.
My parents had their wills done via a building society at no cost to themselves. If they needed an amend to either will they'd contact the solicitor who undertook the work on behalf of the building society. The amended will would always come back with something new in it that they couldn't make sense of because it was written in legal jargon, so they'd have to enquire about that and, needless to say, the enquiry would be subject to a charge. Because it was a service offered via the building society the solicitor just saw it as a cash machine and would pull the same stunt every time.
They were all charged at a cost of £200 in total.
When I got divorced many years ago I had to pay a solicitor a retainer, I only had £40 on me so that was accepted. When my nisi came through it was posted to me straight away. When the divorce was finalized they didn't send my absolute.
When I asked for the absolute a couple of weeks later I was answered with"Oops". The solicitor posted my absolute with a final bill that came to the £40 I'd paid as a retainer!
When I asked for the absolute a couple of weeks later I was answered with"Oops". The solicitor posted my absolute with a final bill that came to the £40 I'd paid as a retainer!
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