Family skeletons
Discussion
My family had two scare stories when I was a child. One was about work - you must work or you'll end up in the workhouse. The other was about sex before marriage or outside marriage and the horrors that would befall offenders if they brought an illegitimate child into the world. I'm in my seventies and note the world is a great deal more relaxed about such things now.
When I researched my family tree, I found out that on my father's side, my several times great grandparents were Londoners who produced umpteen children before being sent to the workhouse. He died in the workhouse in Southwark in the 1830s and she died in the workhouse in Lambeth in the 1860s. That explains where that warning came from.
The hushed voices and fear of what the neighbours would say about a child born out of wedlock is more complicated. My uncle, a lovely bloke, was a seven month baby. A seven month baby born seven months after my grandparents wedding. This was open and if mentioned was a source of wonder. My mother went as far as to say on one occasion that her parents would never have engaged in sex before marriage. Heaven forfend. Uh, huh. There was a family function when I was fifteen where I discovered I had yet another great aunt. Her mother, my great grandmother, was a matriarch, widowed in the flu epidemic of 1919. When her eldest daughter left home to go into service with the widowed owner of the local taxi firm, my great grandmother disapproved heartily. This man had five children, the eldest of whom was only slightly older than my great aunt. When she became pregnant by him and there was a rushed wedding, her mother cut her off. Cut her off to the extent I didnt know she existed. My mother explained that the son who arrived was the spit of my uncle, they were only days apart in age and the weddings were only a fortnight apart. "Two seven month babies," I exclaimed in wonder. "Oh, you're so cruel!" wailed my mother. I didn't mean to be cruel, I was fifteen and unworldly. The secret to negotiating these tricky waters is, once the penny drops, keep it to yourself, you're part of the deceit now. The two lads were great friends all their lives despite my great gran.
My brother made someone else's wife pregnant. Oh, my good gawd, the hand wringing that went on. My niece was born while my sister in law's divorce was underway. The baby was introduced to the family at a big gathering before she and my brother married. In one of those unforeseen micro events that can colour relationships, my sister in law and the baby found themselves on their own in a room full of disapproving great aunts. My great aunt Edie refused to dandle the little girl. "It's not even a child!" she announced. How f
king unkind would you have to be to say something like that? Aunt Edie lived with her husband, my great uncle Bill, lovely bloke, and their daughter, Molly, who still lived at home well into middle age. Uncle Bill died intestate. Edie and Molly carried on for a bit, then Edie died, also interstate. Molly, all set to inherit once a few legal hurdles were cleared, blossomed. She was like a new woman. New clothes, new hair style, positively effervescent. Six weeks after her mother died, the newly liberated Molly died. Also intestate. My mother and one of her cousins acted as unofficial executors. among the shambles was an interesting story. Bill had several brothers and sisters that my family had only met once, at Edie and Bill's wedding. All the siblings apart from Bill shared parents. Bill was the son of their father and their mother's sister, who had joined the family when her sister died in childbirth. Bill was illegitimate but shared grandparents and DNA with his half siblings. Aunt Edie, who uttered those awful words on illegitimacy, was herself married to an illegitimate man.
And as far as I know, skeleton-wise, that's it. Oh, there was Algernon, who did very well. He was a bright lad and went into banking. Very clever with money. Better at making money for himself than the bank, unfortunately. At the bank's expense. The money was never found. Years ago. We don't like to talk about it.
When I researched my family tree, I found out that on my father's side, my several times great grandparents were Londoners who produced umpteen children before being sent to the workhouse. He died in the workhouse in Southwark in the 1830s and she died in the workhouse in Lambeth in the 1860s. That explains where that warning came from.
The hushed voices and fear of what the neighbours would say about a child born out of wedlock is more complicated. My uncle, a lovely bloke, was a seven month baby. A seven month baby born seven months after my grandparents wedding. This was open and if mentioned was a source of wonder. My mother went as far as to say on one occasion that her parents would never have engaged in sex before marriage. Heaven forfend. Uh, huh. There was a family function when I was fifteen where I discovered I had yet another great aunt. Her mother, my great grandmother, was a matriarch, widowed in the flu epidemic of 1919. When her eldest daughter left home to go into service with the widowed owner of the local taxi firm, my great grandmother disapproved heartily. This man had five children, the eldest of whom was only slightly older than my great aunt. When she became pregnant by him and there was a rushed wedding, her mother cut her off. Cut her off to the extent I didnt know she existed. My mother explained that the son who arrived was the spit of my uncle, they were only days apart in age and the weddings were only a fortnight apart. "Two seven month babies," I exclaimed in wonder. "Oh, you're so cruel!" wailed my mother. I didn't mean to be cruel, I was fifteen and unworldly. The secret to negotiating these tricky waters is, once the penny drops, keep it to yourself, you're part of the deceit now. The two lads were great friends all their lives despite my great gran.
My brother made someone else's wife pregnant. Oh, my good gawd, the hand wringing that went on. My niece was born while my sister in law's divorce was underway. The baby was introduced to the family at a big gathering before she and my brother married. In one of those unforeseen micro events that can colour relationships, my sister in law and the baby found themselves on their own in a room full of disapproving great aunts. My great aunt Edie refused to dandle the little girl. "It's not even a child!" she announced. How f
king unkind would you have to be to say something like that? Aunt Edie lived with her husband, my great uncle Bill, lovely bloke, and their daughter, Molly, who still lived at home well into middle age. Uncle Bill died intestate. Edie and Molly carried on for a bit, then Edie died, also interstate. Molly, all set to inherit once a few legal hurdles were cleared, blossomed. She was like a new woman. New clothes, new hair style, positively effervescent. Six weeks after her mother died, the newly liberated Molly died. Also intestate. My mother and one of her cousins acted as unofficial executors. among the shambles was an interesting story. Bill had several brothers and sisters that my family had only met once, at Edie and Bill's wedding. All the siblings apart from Bill shared parents. Bill was the son of their father and their mother's sister, who had joined the family when her sister died in childbirth. Bill was illegitimate but shared grandparents and DNA with his half siblings. Aunt Edie, who uttered those awful words on illegitimacy, was herself married to an illegitimate man.And as far as I know, skeleton-wise, that's it. Oh, there was Algernon, who did very well. He was a bright lad and went into banking. Very clever with money. Better at making money for himself than the bank, unfortunately. At the bank's expense. The money was never found. Years ago. We don't like to talk about it.
Edited by DickyC on Sunday 28th December 08:55
Unmarried, married after children were quite common in the 1800's, we've lots in our family, if you look carefully. We've traced my dads side back to the 1600's, my mums side were related to the farming family that owned half of Northamptonshire at one point.
On my wife side, her father was sent to work early so the older brother could go to school, became high up in the Army, leader of a local council and a road named after him.
The children, well one had 5 kids from 4 fathers then decided she was a lesbian, the son swapped partners with the next door neighbour, the youngest we still meet up with but married someone 20 years older...
Of course my sister in law was the one having affairs with Nigerian doctors (rewind to the christmas meal where I offered her the dark meat from the turkey, etc). They had a posh wedding for their eldest, that cost over £60k (all show), the marriage lasted 4 years, took them 10 years to pay it off... etc.
On my wife side, her father was sent to work early so the older brother could go to school, became high up in the Army, leader of a local council and a road named after him.
The children, well one had 5 kids from 4 fathers then decided she was a lesbian, the son swapped partners with the next door neighbour, the youngest we still meet up with but married someone 20 years older...
Of course my sister in law was the one having affairs with Nigerian doctors (rewind to the christmas meal where I offered her the dark meat from the turkey, etc). They had a posh wedding for their eldest, that cost over £60k (all show), the marriage lasted 4 years, took them 10 years to pay it off... etc.
Old boy I used to drink with occasionally would jokingly refer to himself as a 'Saturday night special'
His siblings were all 15~20 years his senior and the story was that his parents had been out for a few drinks one night and he was the end result...
People being what they are weren't going to let the truth stop an opportunity for some gossip so the rumours started that one of his older sisters was his biological mother.
His siblings were all 15~20 years his senior and the story was that his parents had been out for a few drinks one night and he was the end result...
People being what they are weren't going to let the truth stop an opportunity for some gossip so the rumours started that one of his older sisters was his biological mother.
We have a "who done it" skeleton in our family.
My grandmother was adopted, but we knew her mother was a maid in a very well known/rich families household. The rumor was she got pregnant by the titled head of the house.
A few years ago the descendents of the titled bloke got in contact with our family to say they thought the same! A few pleasant emails were exchanged until somebody on our side suggested a DNA test to prove one way or another. At that point they broke off contact.
Seems like we'll never know if we're actually related.
The bloke in question is well know enough to have been portrayed in a film based on ture events. He was also embroiled in well known controversy so there is plenty about him on line.
My grandmother was adopted, but we knew her mother was a maid in a very well known/rich families household. The rumor was she got pregnant by the titled head of the house.
A few years ago the descendents of the titled bloke got in contact with our family to say they thought the same! A few pleasant emails were exchanged until somebody on our side suggested a DNA test to prove one way or another. At that point they broke off contact.
Seems like we'll never know if we're actually related.
The bloke in question is well know enough to have been portrayed in a film based on ture events. He was also embroiled in well known controversy so there is plenty about him on line.
My late dad wasn't the best husband, he had many affairs, strong beliefs of fathering a daughter as a result of one of them, my mum and sister know who it is, I don't and have no inclination to find out.
His second wife, was an old squeeze from back in his philandering days, she has a son who I used to have a good relationship with, he's similar build to me and is ginger like my sister, my mum is positive he was fathered by my dad too (I do recall seeing a photo of him as a child with my dad, however at the time thinking nothing of it). I no longer have any contact with him, it all went pear shaped when my dad died with his widow being the narcissist she is, I have tried to get back in contact with him but he's not interested, he no longer has contact with his mum either, lovely guy but he is complicated and I think he feels an immense amount of guilt with regards to how his mum behaved towards me, my sister and my dad's memory after his death.
I'm sure there are things going back 100's of years too on my dad's side, for example my skin complection is darker, along with one of my aunts, grandad and dad, than your average native born English person, I'm always being asked by random people I strike up conversations with, if I've been on holiday.
His second wife, was an old squeeze from back in his philandering days, she has a son who I used to have a good relationship with, he's similar build to me and is ginger like my sister, my mum is positive he was fathered by my dad too (I do recall seeing a photo of him as a child with my dad, however at the time thinking nothing of it). I no longer have any contact with him, it all went pear shaped when my dad died with his widow being the narcissist she is, I have tried to get back in contact with him but he's not interested, he no longer has contact with his mum either, lovely guy but he is complicated and I think he feels an immense amount of guilt with regards to how his mum behaved towards me, my sister and my dad's memory after his death.
I'm sure there are things going back 100's of years too on my dad's side, for example my skin complection is darker, along with one of my aunts, grandad and dad, than your average native born English person, I'm always being asked by random people I strike up conversations with, if I've been on holiday.
Edited by HTP99 on Sunday 28th December 11:56
My wife's dad who I've never met was suspected of messing around many times back when he was married to my mother in law but it was confirmed when my Mrs matched with a guy on ancestry.com and it turns out she has a half brother.
More recently my sister found out that my dad who was a bit of a ladies man back in the day got a woman pregnant before he met my mum and we have a half sister. But it's been kept quiet as we're sure that my mum doesn't know and I don't want to see her upset
More recently my sister found out that my dad who was a bit of a ladies man back in the day got a woman pregnant before he met my mum and we have a half sister. But it's been kept quiet as we're sure that my mum doesn't know and I don't want to see her upset
I suspect that many families have similar stories. People haven't changed much over the centuiries. *Middle-class* Victorian ideas (if not the reality) of morality were not always the norm.
Various things. At least one of my forefathers died in a workhouse and is buried in a paupers' grave (a pit full of the poor). One of my aunties was born (but died in the mid 1930s) fairly soon after my grandparents marriage.
One of my great grandfathers was a publican in Liverpool, starting in Toxteth. A bit of a wide boy I suspect. He died in his 40s/1920s. The family claim that he was teetotal. I suspect that he was not.
My mother in law has a theory that one of my father in law's grandmothers was a prostitute (she did have a child of unknown father) before marrying his grandfather (who was from one of the Baltic states, to this day the family look Jewish but were registered as RC when they arrived in the UK. Another interesting point. Unfortunately records were lost in an area with a lot of disturbance in the 20th century)
Various things. At least one of my forefathers died in a workhouse and is buried in a paupers' grave (a pit full of the poor). One of my aunties was born (but died in the mid 1930s) fairly soon after my grandparents marriage.
One of my great grandfathers was a publican in Liverpool, starting in Toxteth. A bit of a wide boy I suspect. He died in his 40s/1920s. The family claim that he was teetotal. I suspect that he was not.
My mother in law has a theory that one of my father in law's grandmothers was a prostitute (she did have a child of unknown father) before marrying his grandfather (who was from one of the Baltic states, to this day the family look Jewish but were registered as RC when they arrived in the UK. Another interesting point. Unfortunately records were lost in an area with a lot of disturbance in the 20th century)
Edited by MC Bodge on Sunday 28th December 13:57
DickyC said:
And as far as I know, skeleton-wise, that's it. Oh, there was Algernon, who did very well. He was a bright lad and went into banking. Very clever with money. Better at making money for himself than the bank, unfortunately. At the bank's expense. The money was never found. Years ago. We don't like to talk about it.
That's a Netflix miniseries on its own.My dad has always been very interested in family tree research. Over the last 4 decades he's discovered a few things.
A couple that come to mind include one of my greatx4 grandfathers being married to 6 different women (in adjacent villages in Somerset) simultaneously, and my great-great grandfather leaving his wife and kids to begin a new life in Patagonia (and that's what everyone believed). Except that he didn't. He simply moved to the other side of the Welsh valley that they all lived in and lived out the rest of his days alone. Took my dad a while to find out the truth on that one.
A couple that come to mind include one of my greatx4 grandfathers being married to 6 different women (in adjacent villages in Somerset) simultaneously, and my great-great grandfather leaving his wife and kids to begin a new life in Patagonia (and that's what everyone believed). Except that he didn't. He simply moved to the other side of the Welsh valley that they all lived in and lived out the rest of his days alone. Took my dad a while to find out the truth on that one.
Does a divorce, mid-last century count as family skeleton?
My father married a foreigner a year or so before the outbreak of WW2. It was thought best she should return to her home (allied) country for the duration. That was the last Dad saw of his wife. After WW2 he considered moving to that country but the chances of finding work would be less than zero. The returning countrymen would, no doubt, have priority for the peace time jobs that would become available. His wife was settled and did not want to return to the UK.
Therefore they agreed the sensible option was divorce and in due course this was done.
Dad married again in the early 1950's. Difficult, his future FiL was dead against it for, to us, unknown reasons but I can guess. But, eventually he was won over and a long, uneventful marriage followed.
I didn't find out about the divorce until the turn of the last century and that was by complete chance.
My brother and I spoke to our parents about it, Mum was clearly still very embarrassed by it, Dad was quite open about, clearly needing to speak about it after bottling it up for all those years.
Brother thought it quite something to have a family skeleton like that. I was disappointed that we found out as we did. Typical of my parents, avoid the difficult conversations at all costs.
My father married a foreigner a year or so before the outbreak of WW2. It was thought best she should return to her home (allied) country for the duration. That was the last Dad saw of his wife. After WW2 he considered moving to that country but the chances of finding work would be less than zero. The returning countrymen would, no doubt, have priority for the peace time jobs that would become available. His wife was settled and did not want to return to the UK.
Therefore they agreed the sensible option was divorce and in due course this was done.
Dad married again in the early 1950's. Difficult, his future FiL was dead against it for, to us, unknown reasons but I can guess. But, eventually he was won over and a long, uneventful marriage followed.
I didn't find out about the divorce until the turn of the last century and that was by complete chance.
My brother and I spoke to our parents about it, Mum was clearly still very embarrassed by it, Dad was quite open about, clearly needing to speak about it after bottling it up for all those years.
Brother thought it quite something to have a family skeleton like that. I was disappointed that we found out as we did. Typical of my parents, avoid the difficult conversations at all costs.
My mother(mid 80s) was the youngest born to a poor Irish immigrant family in Lancs.
A couple of things she has told me in recent years:
A well dressed (childless) couple used to come an visit her regularly when she was a young child. They were going to adopt (buy?) her as her own parents couldn't afford to look after her.
Mum passed the 11 plus and was accepted for a place in Grammar school. She wasn't allowed to go as her older sister was at the lesser school (secondary modern/technical?) and there was no Grammar School uniform as a hand me down.
The second story has always made me feel quite sad.
Despite or maybe because of coming from nothing my mum has devoted an awful lot of her spare time to charities that help people for as long as I can remember.
A couple of things she has told me in recent years:
A well dressed (childless) couple used to come an visit her regularly when she was a young child. They were going to adopt (buy?) her as her own parents couldn't afford to look after her.
Mum passed the 11 plus and was accepted for a place in Grammar school. She wasn't allowed to go as her older sister was at the lesser school (secondary modern/technical?) and there was no Grammar School uniform as a hand me down.
The second story has always made me feel quite sad.
Despite or maybe because of coming from nothing my mum has devoted an awful lot of her spare time to charities that help people for as long as I can remember.
loskie said:
Mum passed the 11 plus and was accepted for a place in Grammar school. She wasn't allowed to go as her older sister was at the lesser school (secondary modern/technical?) and there was no Grammar School uniform as a hand me down.
The second story has always made me feel quite sad
One of my grandmothers passed a scholarship exam for high/grammar school (late 1920s presumably) but her family didn't let her take it up and she became an apprentice miliner (hat maker).The second story has always made me feel quite sad
During WW2 she worked in a munitions factory, became a supervisor and then some sort of quality inspector. My Dad has told me that she was quite intelligent and interested in engineering. I never really saw this side of her, she didn't say much.
My Mum was a Barnardo's kid. Taken into a home when she was 12 years old after her Dad died. She was the product of older parents. He Dad was 52 her Mum 42 when she was born.
My Mum never really talked about her childhood experiences. She was eventually fostered and got lucky with her foster parents.
I did a bit of digging (with her permission). I found her Dad had married his cousin after getting her pregnant and had two children. So my Mum had two half brothers. He then abandoned his wife, came back and sold the house and cleared off (this was reported in the local paper). He then disappeared for a few years and popped up again when he married my Grandmother.
Turns out he was a proper wrong'un. He had shacked up with a woman 20 years older than him and got put inside for paedophile as he was doing stuff to the woman's daughters.
When he married my Grandmother, he was still married to his first wife who lived until her 80s.
So he was a bigamist.
I told my Mum about him being married before and she had two half brothers (both brothers were already dead with no children). However, she went to her grave not knowing her dad was a bigamist, making her illegitimate, or that he had been inside for kiddy fiddling.
My Mum never really talked about her childhood experiences. She was eventually fostered and got lucky with her foster parents.
I did a bit of digging (with her permission). I found her Dad had married his cousin after getting her pregnant and had two children. So my Mum had two half brothers. He then abandoned his wife, came back and sold the house and cleared off (this was reported in the local paper). He then disappeared for a few years and popped up again when he married my Grandmother.
Turns out he was a proper wrong'un. He had shacked up with a woman 20 years older than him and got put inside for paedophile as he was doing stuff to the woman's daughters.
When he married my Grandmother, he was still married to his first wife who lived until her 80s.
So he was a bigamist.
I told my Mum about him being married before and she had two half brothers (both brothers were already dead with no children). However, she went to her grave not knowing her dad was a bigamist, making her illegitimate, or that he had been inside for kiddy fiddling.
Grandmother kicked my father out when he was 18 because he wasn't earning enough and his father had just died from PTSD from WW1. Father had three brothers, their grandchildren have all been in jail, not that I know any of them.
Mother was a thief, liar, adulterer. Father was ridiculously bad as a parent, he didn't know any better, bought one car after another and gambled on horses whilst his children went without shoes.
No wonder I am a mess.
Mother was a thief, liar, adulterer. Father was ridiculously bad as a parent, he didn't know any better, bought one car after another and gambled on horses whilst his children went without shoes.
No wonder I am a mess.
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