Eleven plus exam questions
Discussion
DOes anyone know much about these?
I just need to clarify a couple of things that the headmaster of my daughters upcoming new school said last night:
1) He claims that the 11+ exams are totally unrelated to the school curriculum, and are more akin to an intelligence IQ test than an exam on taught schoolwork.
In other words, a school cannot influence the results of 11+ exams to any great degree.
2) The preperation that they give to the children is prescribed by the eduction board- consisting of x number of sessions and x number of practice papers. They are strictly not allowed to do anything above this.
Does anyone know much about this?
Thanks
I just need to clarify a couple of things that the headmaster of my daughters upcoming new school said last night:
1) He claims that the 11+ exams are totally unrelated to the school curriculum, and are more akin to an intelligence IQ test than an exam on taught schoolwork.
In other words, a school cannot influence the results of 11+ exams to any great degree.
2) The preperation that they give to the children is prescribed by the eduction board- consisting of x number of sessions and x number of practice papers. They are strictly not allowed to do anything above this.
Does anyone know much about this?
Thanks
blindswelledrat said:
DOes anyone know much about these?
I just need to clarify a couple of things that the headmaster of my daughters upcoming new school said last night:
1) He claims that the 11+ exams are totally unrelated to the school curriculum, and are more akin to an intelligence IQ test than an exam on taught schoolwork.
In other words, a school cannot influence the results of 11+ exams to any great degree.
2) The preperation that they give to the children is prescribed by the eduction board- consisting of x number of sessions and x number of practice papers. They are strictly not allowed to do anything above this.
Does anyone know much about this?
Thanks
Point 1 - yep I'd agree with thatI just need to clarify a couple of things that the headmaster of my daughters upcoming new school said last night:
1) He claims that the 11+ exams are totally unrelated to the school curriculum, and are more akin to an intelligence IQ test than an exam on taught schoolwork.
In other words, a school cannot influence the results of 11+ exams to any great degree.
2) The preperation that they give to the children is prescribed by the eduction board- consisting of x number of sessions and x number of practice papers. They are strictly not allowed to do anything above this.
Does anyone know much about this?
Thanks
Point 2 - utter tosh. My youngest is studying for his 11+ right now. The school he goes to doesnt do the 11+ so he gets no help from them. So he goes to a tutor twice a week, does 30 mins of work with my mrs each evening and does 2 or 3 test papers each week.
ETA Point 2 , I re-read your post. Perhaps the school are not allowed to do anything above x sessions and papers, but that doesnt stop you buying some at WHSmith and doing them at home.
Edited by bigdods on Friday 8th October 09:57
in areas where there is still the 11+, state schools are not allowed to prep the pupils beyond the basic familiarisation approved by the LEA. Most parents will either prep the kids themselves or employ a tutor.
Given that primary school kids have zero exam technique, and some of the questions are a bit "special" and require a certain technique to be applied which is not obvious from the outset, I would say that preparation is necessary for all but the exceptionally bright.
In other words, the system doesn't work, so everyone cheats.
Given that primary school kids have zero exam technique, and some of the questions are a bit "special" and require a certain technique to be applied which is not obvious from the outset, I would say that preparation is necessary for all but the exceptionally bright.
In other words, the system doesn't work, so everyone cheats.
Unless your daughter is going to a prep school it is extremely unlikely that she will be getting anything in the way of tuition for the 11+. As your headmaster said, it's a verbal and numerical reasoning test, not dissimilar to an IQ test (but it doesn't have the spacial awareness section IIRC) and not even remotely related to key stage curriculum material. Near me there are dozens of private prep schools close to the boys and girls grammar schools and their sole objective is to groom for 11+ and entry to the grammar schools.
Hmmm, thanks all.
For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
blindswelledrat said:
Hmmm, thanks all.
For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
My child rates in the top 20% of their school but failed to finish the 11plus exam at our preferred school. Each preferred school in this Borough now does their own 11 plus - it is no longer one exam for all schools.For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
If you want your child to pass it then they need to be tutored in passing, not in more actual school work. They test Verbal and Non-Verbal reasoning now.
blindswelledrat said:
Hmmm, thanks all.
For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
Thats a toughy.Nerves,colds and God knows what else can have an influence, and the child would have to be VERY good to win on appealif he/she had a bad day.For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
1598 said:
blindswelledrat said:
Hmmm, thanks all.
For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
My child rates in the top 20% of their school but failed to finish the 11plus exam at our preferred school. Each preferred school in this Borough now does their own 11 plus - it is no longer one exam for all schools.For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
If you want your child to pass it then they need to be tutored in passing, not in more actual school work. They test Verbal and Non-Verbal reasoning now.
The tutoring I've seen pressured parents to get mediocre children to grammar is amazing. Test papers over and over again. But it does sometimes work. When these children get to grammar they may stuggle. Speak to your child's teacher if they are any good they should have a good grasp on if and how your child may pass and what may be best for them in the long run.
Edited by southendpier on Friday 8th October 14:02
blindswelledrat said:
Hmmm, thanks all.
For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
One key issue is that if you tutor your child too much, they might get in, but not be able to cope with the school - I've heard of that happening a few times, because the child goes from being average or better in their primary/prep to being the dunce in the class.For those of you that know more about it, does it actually work reasonably well?
i.e. if you took the 30% of chidren in my area that passed last year, would they pretty much make up the 'most intelligent' 30% of children?
TO ask it another way- if you have a bright child- are they likely to pass it?
Yes, the headmaster was keen to stress that.
To him- a child struggling at Grammar School out of his depth was worse than a child capable of Grammar School that didn't make it.
Easy to pull a struggling child out of grammar school than get one into grammar school that has failed thier 11+ though.
To him- a child struggling at Grammar School out of his depth was worse than a child capable of Grammar School that didn't make it.
Easy to pull a struggling child out of grammar school than get one into grammar school that has failed thier 11+ though.
1598 said:
My child rates in the top 20% of their school but failed to finish the 11plus exam at our preferred school. Each preferred school in this Borough now does their own 11 plus - it is no longer one exam for all schools.
.
Thats my biggest fear. Sympathies..
Im determined n ot to be too pushy, i.e. if any of them aren't particularly bright (which of course won't really happen) then Ill be acceptant of that.
Having a bright child that under performes at Junior school, though, is something that worries me even 4 years early
The problem is that any child would most likely fail the exam no matter how bright they are if thet have never seen these type of questions before.
My youngest is bright as a button. Top in maths and english, takes spanish, guitar and trumpet lessons in his lunch breaks (all his choice) and given the option will have his head buried in a book all the time. His teachers all say he is grammar school material. But the first time he sat in front of an 11+ paper he only got 50% as he just didnt understand how to answer the questions.
Bit like taking the driving test , you learn how to pass the test not how to drive.....
My youngest is bright as a button. Top in maths and english, takes spanish, guitar and trumpet lessons in his lunch breaks (all his choice) and given the option will have his head buried in a book all the time. His teachers all say he is grammar school material. But the first time he sat in front of an 11+ paper he only got 50% as he just didnt understand how to answer the questions.
Bit like taking the driving test , you learn how to pass the test not how to drive.....
bigdods said:
The problem is that any child would most likely fail the exam no matter how bright they are if thet have never seen these type of questions before.
My youngest is bright as a button. Top in maths and english, takes spanish, guitar and trumpet lessons in his lunch breaks (all his choice) and given the option will have his head buried in a book all the time. His teachers all say he is grammar school material. But the first time he sat in front of an 11+ paper he only got 50% as he just didnt understand how to answer the questions.
Bit like taking the driving test , you learn how to pass the test not how to drive.....
Agreed. Some of the questions are also slightly old-fashioned - knowledge of the ranks of the army is sometimes required, and some of the language is more Enid Blyton/Puck of Pook's Hill than Eoin Colfer and Cressida Cowell. Get him to read some childrens books of yesteryear if seriously putting him forward in the future. My youngest is bright as a button. Top in maths and english, takes spanish, guitar and trumpet lessons in his lunch breaks (all his choice) and given the option will have his head buried in a book all the time. His teachers all say he is grammar school material. But the first time he sat in front of an 11+ paper he only got 50% as he just didnt understand how to answer the questions.
Bit like taking the driving test , you learn how to pass the test not how to drive.....
Isn't it the "12+" in Bucks and you start grammar school in the "second form"? Or did that all go by the board when they introduced all this "year 13" and "Key stage 94" stuff? Anyway 30 years ago it wasn't a curriculum based exam, it was reasoning based (as you say, like an IQ test).
Don't have children, my information comes from sitting it. Had no tutoring for the exam - we might have done a practice paper at school, but they seemed more concerned with confirmation lessons that year. I didn't want to go to school in High Wycombe, so I went to one in Amersham instead.
Don't have children, my information comes from sitting it. Had no tutoring for the exam - we might have done a practice paper at school, but they seemed more concerned with confirmation lessons that year. I didn't want to go to school in High Wycombe, so I went to one in Amersham instead.
onomatopoeia said:
Isn't it the "12+" in Bucks and you start grammar school in the "second form"? Or did that all go by the board when they introduced all this "year 13" and "Key stage 94" stuff? Anyway 30 years ago it wasn't a curriculum based exam, it was reasoning based (as you say, like an IQ test).
Don't have children, my information comes from sitting it. Had no tutoring for the exam - we might have done a practice paper at school, but they seemed more concerned with confirmation lessons that year. I didn't want to go to school in High Wycombe, so I went to one in Amersham instead.
Nope, 11+ now, although you can sit an exam at 12+ if you don't get in at 11 (although that's not widely advertised!).Don't have children, my information comes from sitting it. Had no tutoring for the exam - we might have done a practice paper at school, but they seemed more concerned with confirmation lessons that year. I didn't want to go to school in High Wycombe, so I went to one in Amersham instead.
bigdods said:
The problem is that any child would most likely fail the exam no matter how bright they are if thet have never seen these type of questions before.
Disagree. I can remember one question from mine (it was 30 years ago!) It was something like "rearrange the letters in the word in capitals to make a word that fits the sentence:You should not lose your METERP."
Any child that can think should be able to sort that out. There were others which were "what is the next number / symbol / letter in this sequence". I don't remember examples, but they were of the difficulty of "3 6 9 12 15 ?"
I said I thought I might have done a practice paper, but I recall now that we went in to the first exam not having any idea what sort of questions we were going to be asked, so evidently I didn't.
onomatopoeia said:
bigdods said:
The problem is that any child would most likely fail the exam no matter how bright they are if thet have never seen these type of questions before.
Disagree. I can remember one question from mine (it was 30 years ago!) It was something like "rearrange the letters in the word in capitals to make a word that fits the sentence:You should not lose your METERP."
Any child that can think should be able to sort that out. There were others which were "what is the next number / symbol / letter in this sequence". I don't remember examples, but they were of the difficulty of "3 6 9 12 15 ?"
I said I thought I might have done a practice paper, but I recall now that we went in to the first exam not having any idea what sort of questions we were going to be asked, so evidently I didn't.
Yes, Ill be fine handling that nearer the time.
The eldest is only just going into Junior School. This is just trying to establish the pros/cons of various schools in the area- and how relevant 11+ pass rates actually were.
As an aside- when I asked him the reason that his school had a lower pass rate than the other 2 local schools and why that might be-after discussing the above- the crux of his answer was that it boiled down to the 'cohort' of the average child in the school. When pushed he acknowledged he meant "demographic".
THoughts on the validity of this?
The eldest is only just going into Junior School. This is just trying to establish the pros/cons of various schools in the area- and how relevant 11+ pass rates actually were.
As an aside- when I asked him the reason that his school had a lower pass rate than the other 2 local schools and why that might be-after discussing the above- the crux of his answer was that it boiled down to the 'cohort' of the average child in the school. When pushed he acknowledged he meant "demographic".
THoughts on the validity of this?
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