Anybody know anything about spinal lower back issues?
Discussion
Year and a half two years ago started getting lower back pain. Sudden bending or standing could cause pain lasting from a few minutes to an hr or two.
No probs for first 6 months of this year other than an occasionally achy left leg. Then around July got a pain in my back and leg quite severe. Saw doctor twice in about three weeks. Went to physio after pushing request at doctor which seemed to help and back pain went away though leg still ached on the odd day.
Cue Boxing day lower back pain which got gradually worse till, one day I struggled to walk 50m across a flat carpark to my car. Went see the doc who said "I think its a trapped nerve" and gave me paracetamol and diclofenac.
I asked whether I could get some form of x ray/scan to establish the cause and was flatly refused and told they would only do so if I was showing neurological signs ie pins and needles and loss of sensation.
This was based on prior experience no surprise to me at all.
Following day woke up could barely get the 5m from my bed to the bathroom. Went to the local A and E and the doc who saw me said my problem was not normal for my age 35. Also said pain in back was a muscle spasm and put me on tramadol and Diazapam and said I should really have a scan /MRI to check what the cause was but could not refer me only my gp can so no chance there then.
Fed up I managed to find a spinal specialist who would do an x-ray establish the problem and sort it out if he could.
Well many issues were found due to my bad posture etc and a lot of what he said made sense only thing that didn't was that I would require 1 to 2 years treatment costing me around 2.5k the first year for adjustments etc.
Has anyone had experience of these sort of things or recommendations? My bosses wife swears by doing exercises to strengthen core muscle groups etc as she had apparently horrific lower back pain as well.
I am very suspicious of the costs and "hard sell" by the chiro/spinal specialist.
Fed up
No probs for first 6 months of this year other than an occasionally achy left leg. Then around July got a pain in my back and leg quite severe. Saw doctor twice in about three weeks. Went to physio after pushing request at doctor which seemed to help and back pain went away though leg still ached on the odd day.
Cue Boxing day lower back pain which got gradually worse till, one day I struggled to walk 50m across a flat carpark to my car. Went see the doc who said "I think its a trapped nerve" and gave me paracetamol and diclofenac.
I asked whether I could get some form of x ray/scan to establish the cause and was flatly refused and told they would only do so if I was showing neurological signs ie pins and needles and loss of sensation.
This was based on prior experience no surprise to me at all.
Following day woke up could barely get the 5m from my bed to the bathroom. Went to the local A and E and the doc who saw me said my problem was not normal for my age 35. Also said pain in back was a muscle spasm and put me on tramadol and Diazapam and said I should really have a scan /MRI to check what the cause was but could not refer me only my gp can so no chance there then.
Fed up I managed to find a spinal specialist who would do an x-ray establish the problem and sort it out if he could.
Well many issues were found due to my bad posture etc and a lot of what he said made sense only thing that didn't was that I would require 1 to 2 years treatment costing me around 2.5k the first year for adjustments etc.
Has anyone had experience of these sort of things or recommendations? My bosses wife swears by doing exercises to strengthen core muscle groups etc as she had apparently horrific lower back pain as well.
I am very suspicious of the costs and "hard sell" by the chiro/spinal specialist.
Fed up
I suffer periodically with my lower joint due to falling from the top of a tipper lorry and landing flat on my back some years ago.
To be honest my physio can keep it in check if I go to him in time once I get a flare up-I ring him straight away if I feel it's even beginning to hurt.
I have been in a situation once where I got out of a car and was unable to move at all once I was stood upright-not a nice experience!
I find that when I go to the gym regularly and do my cardio and use the fixed weight machines then this actually makes things better and I have less problems if any over time when I'm sticking to my fitness regime.
To be honest my physio can keep it in check if I go to him in time once I get a flare up-I ring him straight away if I feel it's even beginning to hurt.
I have been in a situation once where I got out of a car and was unable to move at all once I was stood upright-not a nice experience!
I find that when I go to the gym regularly and do my cardio and use the fixed weight machines then this actually makes things better and I have less problems if any over time when I'm sticking to my fitness regime.
I have every sympathy with you.
I broke my spine when I was eight (long, long ago) falling out of a tree and dislocated by right hip. I always was bonkers.
Dislocation pretty well cured but on off back trouble since.
About eight years ago (I a now 66) sailing a yacht in the English Channel hit a freak wave. Yacht stood on end I fell backwards on the transom wife fell on top of me. Broke my spine again. Not good. As I said I am Bonkers.
Tricky job getting into port with coastguard assistance but we got there.
Had six months in hospital attended by various orthopedic surgeons who informed me I had severely damaged my spine which would not recover and I would be doubly incontinent, in a wheelchair, unable to walk,and sexually impotent.
Bit of a challenge that. In very severe pain constantly. Morphine drip/Pethadin injections no life at all. Started looking for a cure.
Managed to find a Neurosurgeon called Jonathan Wasserburg at the QE in Birmingham. Absolute expert in spinal Neurosurgery.
After several MRI scans Wasserburg decided he could carry out a procedure fusing three discs together which might improve the condition.
In short he did try and he did succeed beyond his expectations.
This was complicated by my preceding heart condition which Anaesthatists do not like. But I made it.
I was very lucky. Feeling returned gradually over six months and I can now walk very short distances. I can live a normalish life. I an no longer incontinent and sexual function has returned. I can drive again.
I cannot stand for long; I cannot carry ANY weights. I cannot sit for long and aircraft travel is a real problem. But I can function in a limited way. Which is a great deal better. The pain is now minimal I am down to paracetamol only not Tramadol at 800 mg a day plus four other pain killers.
I have given you the detail because I think you should treat this VERY seriously. You are a young man and this is not something to leave unresearched.
I would see a Neurosurgeon such as Wasserburg. He will want an MRI scan. Have one.
You need to find out what is wrong. You could be in real trouble with this unless corrective action is taken as soon as possible.
In reality costs should not be your main concern. If Wasserburg recommends an operation have it. The man is quite outstanding in his field.
I know what severe back pain is like. As I said to Wasseburg before the operation if I had had a gun I would have shot myself. I simply could not function as I was. No question the pain was too great to live with I would have ended my life but for a cure.
Do you absolute best to sort this. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
I broke my spine when I was eight (long, long ago) falling out of a tree and dislocated by right hip. I always was bonkers.
Dislocation pretty well cured but on off back trouble since.
About eight years ago (I a now 66) sailing a yacht in the English Channel hit a freak wave. Yacht stood on end I fell backwards on the transom wife fell on top of me. Broke my spine again. Not good. As I said I am Bonkers.
Tricky job getting into port with coastguard assistance but we got there.
Had six months in hospital attended by various orthopedic surgeons who informed me I had severely damaged my spine which would not recover and I would be doubly incontinent, in a wheelchair, unable to walk,and sexually impotent.
Bit of a challenge that. In very severe pain constantly. Morphine drip/Pethadin injections no life at all. Started looking for a cure.
Managed to find a Neurosurgeon called Jonathan Wasserburg at the QE in Birmingham. Absolute expert in spinal Neurosurgery.
After several MRI scans Wasserburg decided he could carry out a procedure fusing three discs together which might improve the condition.
In short he did try and he did succeed beyond his expectations.
This was complicated by my preceding heart condition which Anaesthatists do not like. But I made it.
I was very lucky. Feeling returned gradually over six months and I can now walk very short distances. I can live a normalish life. I an no longer incontinent and sexual function has returned. I can drive again.
I cannot stand for long; I cannot carry ANY weights. I cannot sit for long and aircraft travel is a real problem. But I can function in a limited way. Which is a great deal better. The pain is now minimal I am down to paracetamol only not Tramadol at 800 mg a day plus four other pain killers.
I have given you the detail because I think you should treat this VERY seriously. You are a young man and this is not something to leave unresearched.
I would see a Neurosurgeon such as Wasserburg. He will want an MRI scan. Have one.
You need to find out what is wrong. You could be in real trouble with this unless corrective action is taken as soon as possible.
In reality costs should not be your main concern. If Wasserburg recommends an operation have it. The man is quite outstanding in his field.
I know what severe back pain is like. As I said to Wasseburg before the operation if I had had a gun I would have shot myself. I simply could not function as I was. No question the pain was too great to live with I would have ended my life but for a cure.
Do you absolute best to sort this. I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
OP, Have you thought of going to an Osteopath? See if some massage/manipulation can release the muscles? At a guess, there is an underlying issue, been stressed over the last 2-3 years?
I've had a tight back for ages, and while not as bad as yours, was starting to get so bad that it was making any form of movement, even a light lift a pain. So I started regular massages, which cleared a bit of the tense muscles. However, it didn't solve the proble, only eased the issue. So after a recomendation I went to an Osteopath, and after the initial session where it was advised that my posture-both sat and walking-could be improved, and a few sessions of manipulation, accupuncture and massage, it's a lot better.
May not be for everyone, and isn't an overnight cure, but worth a thought.
I've had a tight back for ages, and while not as bad as yours, was starting to get so bad that it was making any form of movement, even a light lift a pain. So I started regular massages, which cleared a bit of the tense muscles. However, it didn't solve the proble, only eased the issue. So after a recomendation I went to an Osteopath, and after the initial session where it was advised that my posture-both sat and walking-could be improved, and a few sessions of manipulation, accupuncture and massage, it's a lot better.
May not be for everyone, and isn't an overnight cure, but worth a thought.
I have back problems, and am having a second round of surgery next week (either fusion or disk replacement).
All I can say based on 5-6 years experience, is get it properly diagnosed. See a different GP if necessary. XRay probably won't show it, may well need an MRI. You said you had lower leg involvement which may help them refer you. I don't understand why they wouldn't - give them a factual summary i.e. major muscle spasms, incapacitated, high levels of pain, and lower leg involvement.
Any treatment without knowing the cause can just make things worse.
I saw an osteopath initiallyl who told me it couldn't be a disc problem; subsequently proven to be exactly that after an MRI.
Get a diagnoses based on fact before deciding on a course of treatment...
All I can say based on 5-6 years experience, is get it properly diagnosed. See a different GP if necessary. XRay probably won't show it, may well need an MRI. You said you had lower leg involvement which may help them refer you. I don't understand why they wouldn't - give them a factual summary i.e. major muscle spasms, incapacitated, high levels of pain, and lower leg involvement.
Any treatment without knowing the cause can just make things worse.
I saw an osteopath initiallyl who told me it couldn't be a disc problem; subsequently proven to be exactly that after an MRI.
Get a diagnoses based on fact before deciding on a course of treatment...
dreamer75 said:
I have back problems, and am having a second round of surgery next week (either fusion or disk replacement).
All I can say based on 5-6 years experience, is get it properly diagnosed. See a different GP if necessary. XRay probably won't show it, may well need an MRI. You said you had lower leg involvement which may help them refer you. I don't understand why they wouldn't - give them a factual summary i.e. major muscle spasms, incapacitated, high levels of pain, and lower leg involvement.
Any treatment without knowing the cause can just make things worse.
I saw an osteopath initiallyl who told me it couldn't be a disc problem; subsequently proven to be exactly that after an MRI.
Get a diagnoses based on fact before deciding on a course of treatment...
That is excellent advice. All I can say based on 5-6 years experience, is get it properly diagnosed. See a different GP if necessary. XRay probably won't show it, may well need an MRI. You said you had lower leg involvement which may help them refer you. I don't understand why they wouldn't - give them a factual summary i.e. major muscle spasms, incapacitated, high levels of pain, and lower leg involvement.
Any treatment without knowing the cause can just make things worse.
I saw an osteopath initiallyl who told me it couldn't be a disc problem; subsequently proven to be exactly that after an MRI.
Get a diagnoses based on fact before deciding on a course of treatment...
Get into the NHS get to see a Neurosurgeon. Present the right symptoms. The sensation loss in your legs is the clue, you have spinal problems that need serious professional treatment. The NHS is the place.
IMO chiropractors and osteopaths are good for muscular spasms and the like.
Neurosurgeons are the specialists for you this is serious stuff. Do not delay.
Steffan said:
That is excellent advice.
Get into the NHS get to see a Neurosurgeon. Present the right symptoms. The sensation loss in your legs is the clue, you have spinal problems that need serious professional treatment. The NHS is the place.
IMO chiropractors and osteopaths are good for muscular spasms and the like.
Neurosurgeons are the specialists for you this is serious stuff. Do not delay.
Sorry Steffan didn't mean to confuse. There is no loss of sensation anywhere. To a degree almost to the contrary there is too much sensation as there is a considerable amount of pain.Get into the NHS get to see a Neurosurgeon. Present the right symptoms. The sensation loss in your legs is the clue, you have spinal problems that need serious professional treatment. The NHS is the place.
IMO chiropractors and osteopaths are good for muscular spasms and the like.
Neurosurgeons are the specialists for you this is serious stuff. Do not delay.
My back has now eased and isnt hurting and my leg doesnt really hurt either. Normally get a pain in my lower back and a pain down the back of my left leg and if driving the sole of my foot can at times get very hot feeling like standing on hot coals.
My GP said these are not nuerological??? therefore it is not a serious issue.
My problem is that regardless of neuro or not there is a problem and rather than establish what the cause they prefer to simply give me painkillers and anti inflammatory drugs.
I would rather know the cause and correct it than possibly end up with a lifelong and possibly debilitating problem.
Booked in to see GP later this afternoon for a follow up so will see if he has received recommendation from the A+E doctor that I get a scan. I don't expect him to do it in any way shape or form but hey here's hoping.
Next up is to book to see a chiro and get there view/recommendation.
Try a different GP, or ask how leg/foot involvement is not nerve involvement - hot feet, weird feelings in legs, pins/needs, numb patches, anything like that tends to indicate nerve involvement of some sort.
Iniital treatment does often seem to be anti-inflammatories and see how it goes; for example even with a herniated disc they won[t operate all the time, at times preferring to hope it rectifies over time. Nothing is set in stone. For me it was a year or so of physio and exercises before they would consider surgery so dont expect miraculous cures!
Or perhaps it is something simple and easy, and a course of anti-inflammatories (if it's a long course also ask about drugs to protect the stomach), exercises and stretches and perhaps some physio or manipulation.
Edited to add: I would be very cuatious of this spinal "expert" as I don't know his/her qualifications or actual job. Your recent flareup has only been a week or so, so presumably the GP is taking the cautious option and seeing if it's just "one of those things" and will sort itself out.
Iniital treatment does often seem to be anti-inflammatories and see how it goes; for example even with a herniated disc they won[t operate all the time, at times preferring to hope it rectifies over time. Nothing is set in stone. For me it was a year or so of physio and exercises before they would consider surgery so dont expect miraculous cures!
Or perhaps it is something simple and easy, and a course of anti-inflammatories (if it's a long course also ask about drugs to protect the stomach), exercises and stretches and perhaps some physio or manipulation.
Edited to add: I would be very cuatious of this spinal "expert" as I don't know his/her qualifications or actual job. Your recent flareup has only been a week or so, so presumably the GP is taking the cautious option and seeing if it's just "one of those things" and will sort itself out.
Edited by dreamer75 on Friday 6th January 14:59
Dreamer my issue is that its not a one off. A one off is no big deal. This has been going on for over a year and a half iirc.
Not constant but steadily getting worse. Started with a leg pain then back pain not always together both of which were occasional and irregular and not painful enough to cause me any real problems.
Its now progressed to two occasions where i could barely walk through pain and the pain being constant (Ie more than just an hr or two) and worsening even under medication initially.
Long and short is the problem is getting worse even after having physio even though only for a month.
Longer the problem is ignored the worse it will get and the less chance of control or correction hence why i am pushing for an answer to cause effect and resolution.
Not constant but steadily getting worse. Started with a leg pain then back pain not always together both of which were occasional and irregular and not painful enough to cause me any real problems.
Its now progressed to two occasions where i could barely walk through pain and the pain being constant (Ie more than just an hr or two) and worsening even under medication initially.
Long and short is the problem is getting worse even after having physio even though only for a month.
Longer the problem is ignored the worse it will get and the less chance of control or correction hence why i am pushing for an answer to cause effect and resolution.
Tallbut Buxomly said:
Dreamer my issue is that its not a one off. A one off is no big deal. This has been going on for over a year and a half iirc.
Not constant but steadily getting worse. Started with a leg pain then back pain not always together both of which were occasional and irregular and not painful enough to cause me any real problems.
Its now progressed to two occasions where i could barely walk through pain and the pain being constant (Ie more than just an hr or two) and worsening even under medication initially.
Long and short is the problem is getting worse even after having physio even though only for a month.
Longer the problem is ignored the worse it will get and the less chance of control or correction hence why i am pushing for an answer to cause effect and resolution.
Precisely. Not constant but steadily getting worse. Started with a leg pain then back pain not always together both of which were occasional and irregular and not painful enough to cause me any real problems.
Its now progressed to two occasions where i could barely walk through pain and the pain being constant (Ie more than just an hr or two) and worsening even under medication initially.
Long and short is the problem is getting worse even after having physio even though only for a month.
Longer the problem is ignored the worse it will get and the less chance of control or correction hence why i am pushing for an answer to cause effect and resolution.
I would do everything possible to get a Neurosurgeon involved and am MRI scan of your back.
This condition can be alleviated dramatically with surgical intervention.
Without intervention this will get worse and worse until you simply cannot function.
If it is a leg pain it is likely to be sciatica. However Back pain has many many different causes and explainations, everything from keeping a big fat wallet in your back pocket when sitting down, to seious issues like slipped discs, injuries and my own condition spondolysis thesis. Which actually isn't as bad as it sounds.
Trying to get a GP to send you for an x-ray is virtually impossible - you MUST insist.
Also, consider going private for a scan.
In my experience a good chriopractor is hard to find but once you do they are excellent
Trying to get a GP to send you for an x-ray is virtually impossible - you MUST insist.
Also, consider going private for a scan.
In my experience a good chriopractor is hard to find but once you do they are excellent
It seems to me that the biggest factor in achieving Xrays and MRI scans and attention from appropriate consultants with ailments depends entirely on how you present to the health service.
I fractured my skull when I fell over in Wilkinson's in Lichfield last year and the service I received was magnificent. Unfortunately the Manager of Wilkinson's was very upset about the effect on his Christmas display.
The paramedics were brilliant and when faced with the list of medication I take, which is distinctly esoteric, and the heart problems, neurosurgical problems, Diabetes etc I have, they gave up on any medication and bandaged the slit in my head.
By the time I got to Burton Serious Accident Hospital two consultants were waiting and I had three MRI scans in less than an hour.
As it happened I never lost consciousness, I never have, despite fracturing my skull four times over the last 60 years. I am basically thick headed. And I fall over because my legs are not 100% connected to my brain all the time.
Magnificent service. I was stitched (40 odd stitches and 16 clips. It HURT) within two hours and onto the Intensive care ward and from then on I had a really excellent fortnight whilst I was interviewed by umpteen students specialist nurses and junior doctors as an interesting case.
Since I was never a thing of beauty the scars did not matter and apart from the removal of the stitches and the clips I had no real pain.
Everything has gone back more or less where it should. Ish.
Your presentation clearly affects the service you get.
On that subject I know several women who have had boob jobs on the NHS because they understood the system and new how to access the process. Depression and clinical lack of confidence being the key element there.
Find a way through the system. I would certainly consider changing GP.
I fractured my skull when I fell over in Wilkinson's in Lichfield last year and the service I received was magnificent. Unfortunately the Manager of Wilkinson's was very upset about the effect on his Christmas display.
The paramedics were brilliant and when faced with the list of medication I take, which is distinctly esoteric, and the heart problems, neurosurgical problems, Diabetes etc I have, they gave up on any medication and bandaged the slit in my head.
By the time I got to Burton Serious Accident Hospital two consultants were waiting and I had three MRI scans in less than an hour.
As it happened I never lost consciousness, I never have, despite fracturing my skull four times over the last 60 years. I am basically thick headed. And I fall over because my legs are not 100% connected to my brain all the time.
Magnificent service. I was stitched (40 odd stitches and 16 clips. It HURT) within two hours and onto the Intensive care ward and from then on I had a really excellent fortnight whilst I was interviewed by umpteen students specialist nurses and junior doctors as an interesting case.
Since I was never a thing of beauty the scars did not matter and apart from the removal of the stitches and the clips I had no real pain.
Everything has gone back more or less where it should. Ish.
Your presentation clearly affects the service you get.
On that subject I know several women who have had boob jobs on the NHS because they understood the system and new how to access the process. Depression and clinical lack of confidence being the key element there.
Find a way through the system. I would certainly consider changing GP.
I had an x ray courtesy of the "specialist". It showed a fair amount about my spinal position and condition. Neck is virtually straight lower back is heavily curved with a disk slightly out of place L2 L3?.
Head is forward of body to compensate for bad posture in lower back i think sums it up.
There is no growth around disks as yet but not far off level 2 I believe where growth will begin to compensate.
However from what i understand best bet is an MRI which is a much clearer picture. I have looked at the cost of an MRI and paying myself will be around 800-900 quid i believe.
Not a massive objection other than that i feel the nhs should be trying to resolve my medical issue rather than cover it up with drugs. Long term it will cost the NHS more than if fixed or corrected in short term.
Head is forward of body to compensate for bad posture in lower back i think sums it up.
There is no growth around disks as yet but not far off level 2 I believe where growth will begin to compensate.
However from what i understand best bet is an MRI which is a much clearer picture. I have looked at the cost of an MRI and paying myself will be around 800-900 quid i believe.
Not a massive objection other than that i feel the nhs should be trying to resolve my medical issue rather than cover it up with drugs. Long term it will cost the NHS more than if fixed or corrected in short term.
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