Talk to me about shoulder exercises

[Asterix]

I have weak shoulders and I'm having trouble working on them.

Even with relatively light weights they fry themselves.

I'm doing 3x8 dumbell press, 3x8 lateral raises & 3x8 front raises on my 'push' days. I understand that they're being worked when I'm doing chest work etc... but they don't seem to have come on at all when the other lifts have seen gains.

Should I hit them again on the legs day?

I'm doing a Push/Pull/Legs seven day split - 2 days rest after legs.

[Animal]

Are you deadlifting? Pull-ups? Heavy compound movements are the way to strong shoulders.

[Asterix]

Deads, squats, pull and chin ups, dips - all the usual suspects are taken care of.

I've only been doing it seriously for a few months so maybe I'm just being impatient.

[LordGrover]

One of the big compounds, which pretty much targets the delts and shoulder complex is the overhead press. It's not popular these days because it's often seen as weak because most people can't push much so avoid it. If you persevere it pays dividends. Even if you have to start with an empty bar -stick at it. It's also useful for 'core', abs, upper back in general and even chest if done properly.

ETA. linky - I'm sure there are better sites but you get the idea.

[alfa pint]

Have you tried:

Seated military press
Behind the neck press
Upright rows
Reverse curls
Neider press

in addition to some of the others recommended. The ones you're doing are for quite small muscle groups, like the caps on your shoulders, whereas ^^^ get the bigger groups.

[busso]

Asterix said:

Deads, squats, pull and chin ups, dips - all the usual suspects are taken care of.

I've only been doing it seriously for a few months so maybe I'm just being impatient.

Yes your being impatient;)

Also make sur you get your technique right before adding more weight at this early stage, as any problems within your technique will result in more shoulder pain/injury.

If you've lifted before its easy to go big early, but if it's your 1st time then it can be a slow process..

[Hoofy]

Asterix said:

I have weak shoulders and I'm having trouble working on them.

Even with relatively light weights they fry themselves.

Wimp.








Me, too.

The exercises you're doing will help. I do them twice a week and I think it's the shoulders that will give you a broader look when clothed; since focusing on my shoulders, I have had friends just say "you're looking broader" recently.

I've started doing kettlebell clean and press (but you can also do dumbbells).
http://youtu.be/YD5APlgpbBQ

As you can see, it will work the legs, core, back, forearm and shoulders. I like the idea of assisting the weight above the shoulders because you can use a heavier weight than for OHPs and control the descent which will work the muscles harder than controlling the ascent and descent for a lighter load IYSWIM. (It's a trick climbers use for developing pull up strength; I think it's called "negatives" in weight lifting.) Warning: if you're struggling to get the weight up, it's probably a bit too dangerous and you won't be in full control of a heavy lump above your head so go lighter - try 2.5kg above your normal OHP dumbbell weight.

Edited by Hoofy on Tuesday 10th April 11:05

[Tiggsy]

I added hang cleans (with a press for the first few reps before I cant manage the press and just clean the bar - I am doing it for explosive power, not shoulders) anyway, found it cooks my shoulders so I just add in some lateral raises (slightly bent over to bring in the rear) and I'm done on delts.

PS - hate front raises, the anterior delt gets hit in any/all chest movement so I dont see the need to isolate it.

[Stu R]

Hoofy said:

Asterix said:

I have weak shoulders and I'm having trouble working on them.

Even with relatively light weights they fry themselves.

Wimp.








Me, too.

The exercises you're doing will help. I do them twice a week and I think it's the shoulders that will give you a broader look when clothed; since focusing on my shoulders, I have had friends just say "you're looking broader" recently.

I've started doing kettlebell clean and press (but you can also do dumbbells).
http://youtu.be/YD5APlgpbBQ

As you can see, it will work the legs, core, back, forearm and shoulders. I like the idea of assisting the weight above the shoulders because you can use a heavier weight than for OHPs and control the descent which will work the muscles harder than controlling the ascent and descent for a lighter load IYSWIM. (It's a trick climbers use for developing pull up strength; I think it's called "negatives" in weight lifting.) Warning: if you're struggling to get the weight up, it's probably a bit too dangerous and you won't be in full control of a heavy lump above your head so go lighter - try 2.5kg above your normal OHP dumbbell weight.

Edited by Hoofy on Tuesday 10th April 11:05

Only thing I'm weary of with that one linked in the video is getting the form right, looks a fine way to knacker your back if you don't!

[Hoofy]

Stu R said:

Only thing I'm weary of with that one linked in the video is getting the form right, looks a fine way to knacker your back if you don't!

Definitely. Deadlift rules apply.

[Tiggsy]

that dumbell one would be better (for the OP) to do from a hang clean start...easier on the back for a newbie than dropping a weight from overhead to the deck.

[Hoofy]

Tiggsy said:

that dumbell one would be better (for the OP) to do from a hang clean start...easier on the back for a newbie than dropping a weight from overhead to the deck.

As I say, I lower it in a controlled fashion so the shoulder muscles have to work.

[Asterix]

Cheers chaps - I shall look into the suggestions.

[Lost_BMW]

Shoulders were/are my second best responding bodypart and I've been hitting them directly or indirectly for 25+ years so do have some advice based on good and bad experience.

Don't injure yourself by rushing to go too heavy too fast or with poor form and ignoring pre-hab exercises for the rotator cuff, (face pulls and internal and external rotations with cables are good - many boxers use them too) or by ignoring the rear delts and wasting some strength potential there as well as possibly causing issues through imbalance.

Also I wouldn't touch press behind neck with someone else's bargepole. Renowned for causing injuries and it fecked mine good and proper. I've read from a number of body builders and traiers who say it should be avoided.

I've still got the residue of a class 2 separation - touch and go whether it would need surgery - bursitis etc. and even today have been having pain with some pinch in the left shoulder steering and changing gear driving home.

If it is strength you are after rather than just size/width I'd not over-do front or even lateral raises - just a couple of sets should be enough - there've been years when I didn't touch them more than once a blue moon, I'm doing them now just for variety and to get a bit of size added back. But concentrate more on standing press or seated front/military press (moderate angles OK imo, personally I don't think the seat needs to be too close to vertical), dumb bell press and bent over lateral raisess.

If you can do them safely without impingement wider grip upright rows hit all 3 heads quite hard and seem to pack size on the side delts well. I often used to do these instead of lateral raises. Also heavy shrugs, as with dead lifts can help.

Also, is the issue all down to shoulders or could it be triceps?

[Cheib]

Lost_BMW said:

Don't injure yourself by rushing to go too heavy too fast or with poor form and ignoring pre-hab exercises for the rotator cuff, (face pulls and internal and external rotations with cables are good - many boxers use them too) or by ignoring the rear delts and wasting some strength potential there as well as possibly causing issues through imbalance.

Also I wouldn't touch press behind neck with someone else's bargepole. Renowned for causing injuries and it fecked mine good and proper. I've read from a number of body builders and traiers who say it should be avoided.

This man speaks sense! Should definitely do separate rotator cuff exercises.....lots of reps with very low weights. You will still get a burn after 20 or so reps.

If you have access to a cable machine it's great for doing roatator cuff work.

[Halb]

Tiggsy said:

I added hang cleans (with a press for the first few reps before I cant manage the press and just clean the bar - I am doing it for explosive power, not shoulders) anyway, found it cooks my shoulders so I just add in some lateral raises (slightly bent over to bring in the rear) and I'm done on delts.
PS - hate front raises, the anterior delt gets hit in any/all chest movement so I dont see the need to isolate it.

I thought you were about looking buff, not explosive power?
I agree about front delts, dips, bench, press they all wazz it.

Lost_BMW said:

Don't injure yourself by rushing to go too heavy too fast or with poor form and ignoring pre-hab exercises for the rotator cuff, (face pulls and internal and external rotations with cables are good - many boxers use them too) or by ignoring the rear delts and wasting some strength potential there as well as possibly causing issues through imbalance.
If it is strength you are after rather than just size/width I'd not over-do front or even lateral raises - just a couple of sets should be enough - there've been years when I didn't touch them more than once a blue moon, I'm doing them now just for variety and to get a bit of size added back. But concentrate more on standing press or seated front/military press (moderate angles OK imo, personally I don't think the seat needs to be too close to vertical), dumb bell press and bent over lateral raisess.
If you can do them safely without impingement wider grip upright rows hit all 3 heads quite hard and seem to pack size on the side delts well. I often used to do these instead of lateral raises. Also heavy shrugs, as with dead lifts can help.

I used to do traffic lights for rotator cuff, but I read that press-ups also help there so just do them now.
I have added a rear delt isolation exercise after not doing anything there for years. What do you think of these 'scarecrows' BMW?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpeUFhScPVI&fea...
Currently on what I would consider my main shoulders day (I do dips and press-up variations and pike press on other days) I do OHP, upright row and scarecrows. The upright row will help with strength in the press as well?

[Tiggsy]

Halb said:

Tiggsy said:

I added hang cleans (with a press for the first few reps before I cant manage the press and just clean the bar - I am doing it for explosive power, not shoulders) anyway, found it cooks my shoulders so I just add in some lateral raises (slightly bent over to bring in the rear) and I'm done on delts.
PS - hate front raises, the anterior delt gets hit in any/all chest movement so I dont see the need to isolate it.

I thought you were about looking buff, not explosive power?

I was - military press, etc - but recently switch my training over as I have new goals! Hang cleans and plyos now!

[Lost_BMW]

Halb said:

I used to do traffic lights for rotator cuff, but I read that press-ups also help there so just do them now.
I have added a rear delt isolation exercise after not doing anything there for years. What do you think of these 'scarecrows' BMW?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpeUFhScPVI&fea...
Currently on what I would consider my main shoulders day (I do dips and press-up variations and pike press on other days) I do OHP, upright row and scarecrows. The upright row will help with strength in the press as well?

They look a bit like wider facepulls so might help... but, more like cable laterals for the rear delts. My brother started doing these in a semi bent position, not the usual parallel to the floor style, a couple of years back and they have really packed on meat to his rear delts and, interestingly enough when he's pumped they make his whole delt area look bigger and wider. It's weird, it's almost like they are pushing the whole complex and anterior deltoids forward 9from the rear) out and sideways?

I'm so bloody lazy and forgetful I often forget to practise what I preach and need to get back into the pre-hab and cuff exercises. TBH I don't think the push ups are helping as much as specific work like with the shoulder horn I've got and hardly use; my loss!

[CaptainSensib1e]

I'd also get some shrugs on the go, they are are a very effective, but underrated excercise. Focus on your form to start with, then go as heavy as possible once your comfortable. Once you're shifting over bodyweight you should see some improvement.

This is a great book if you're interested in finding out more:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kelsos-Shrug-Book-Paul-Kel...

[LordGrover]

I agree shrugs are a very much underrated exercise where you can shift some serious metal.
It's also quite easy to do yourself damage though. As above, form is imperative.
Whatever you do, do not use mirrors or twist/rotate your neck or anything while loaded.