Weight Training advice

[bosshog]

Hi all,

done a few searches on this forum and read a lot of interesting threads. However any advice you might have would be appreciated.

Ok some info first:
40, 6', 76kg, 16%BF
Injuries: partially dislocated clavier from 14 years ago - causes bursitis when swimming/surfing a lot, and shoulder more unstable in general. I'm also currently got something wrong with my right knee for the last 7 months - similar to a torn meniscus/cartilage, but nothing comes up on the MRI - anyhow I cannot do anything load bearing (including walking very far, running, standing lifting heavy weights). Its probably going to take another year at least until I can do anything really active on the knee - surgeons say I need to wait and keep on with physio. Currently I surf about 2/3 week (cardio), and go to the gym every 3rd day.

I recently (2.5 months) ago started weight training for the first time in my life. I went to an exercise physiologist who gave me a basic routine which is low risk for my shoulders (I had 2 torn rotator cuffs in the last 12 and 6 months ago) and gave me the good form to perform them. My routine is thus:
- 6 x 8 bicep curls
- 6 x 8 scull crushes
- 3 x 8 hammer curls
- 6 x 8 dumbbell bench (but keeping elbows more in). I swap in inclines sometimes
- 6 x 10 single arm standing rows
- 6 X 10 single arm standing lat pull-down
- some rotator cuff exercises (light weights)
- some core exercises

I have progressed in terms of weight/strength in 2.5 months. However I've not had any gains in terms of bulk and being pretty vain like most of us I'd like to!. I read that regimes involving squat, dead lift, bench, rows, and dips are great for this - however at the moment (and at least for the next year) I'm not going to be able to do these due to my knee. I eat well and have a couple of protein shakes in between meals, and I sleep well about 7.5 hours at night.

Basically I'm looking for any advice on what I could do to better given my injuries or advice - what am I missing/doing wrong ?.
many thanks

Edited by bosshog on Tuesday 13th November 05:00

[Ordinary_Chap]

Can you post your diet as that will help others give feedback. Are you currently gaining/losing weight?

In terms of your injuries, I'm sorry I can't help there but Goldblum or one of the other professional PT's will be along to help I'm sure.

One thing I can say, is 2.5 months isn't very long for someone doing a reduced weight lifting plan to see significant changes although I'd expect some changes at least.

When it comes to measuring yourself are you taking measurements of different parts of your body or going on weight? I know when I haven't lifted for a while and start again my weight doesn't really change a huge amount, I just start trading muscle for fat.

Lee

[Asterix]

Am I right in thinking you have missed out Chest exercises - the only DB press you have with elbows in will target triceps as much as anything else.

Is your shoulder knacked enough to not be able to do a proper press or flys? What about decline press/flys? I think they will have a reduced impact on the shoulders.

[Hoofy]

Could try floor presses. I fked my shoulder and couldn't do bench press for a long time. Floor press with just one db at a time meant I could focus my efforts on keeping safe while lifting as heavy as I could.

[Lawsome]

You're right, the compound exercises you mentioned help you get swole. It is unfortunate you can't do them. Just sit tight.

To get bulk you really just have to eat more. Eat as much as possible of the good stuff. Not hungry? EAT!

[Ordinary_Chap]

Lawsome said:

You're right, the compound exercises you mentioned help you get swole. It is unfortunate you can't do them. Just sit tight.

To get bulk you really just have to eat more. Eat as much as possible of the good stuff. Not hungry? EAT!

I've always been interested in the bulking thing and I have to say I'm leaning more towards Goldblum's point of view - Damnit!

So I created a thread a while back about an epic bulk which worked quite well but I also got hilariously fat even if I did gain a fair chunk of muscle.

The problem with massively over eating is this, you gain muscle at probably the optimum rate but a lot of the additional calories make no difference and they do make you fat so then after the bulking you've got too get rid the fat by having a calorie deficit which means losing muscle or at best maintain it but for that period you can't do much in terms of growth really.

So that then makes me muse that if you over eat just slightly but use cardio to keep the fat down you should still be able to grow but maybe at 75% rate (this isn't scientific but a guess based on my experiences) you are able to sustain growth far longer since you no longer need to spend time trying to get rid of the fat. In addition to this you don't need to suffer getting fat and thus you are healthier from carrying less weight and doing cardio whilst still growing.

Anyway, sorry those are my musings on the matter.

Edited by Ordinary_Chap on Tuesday 13th November 13:39

[Asterix]

When I come to bulk I'm going to use the semi-nonscientific method of eating a bit more, clean of course, for a couple of weeks, train hard and see if I put on weight. If the weight gain is zero or marginal I'll eat a bit more. If I look like I'm starting to fatten up too much, I'll eat a bit less.

When I find that I'm gaining bulk but not getting (too much) fat then I know I've got it ok.

Going to start at 3k calories and take it from there.

[bosshog]

Ordinary_Chap said:

Can you post your diet as that will help others give feedback. Are you currently gaining/losing weight?

In terms of your injuries, I'm sorry I can't help there but Goldblum or one of the other professional PT's will be along to help I'm sure.

One thing I can say, is 2.5 months isn't very long for someone doing a reduced weight lifting plan to see significant changes although I'd expect some changes at least.

When it comes to measuring yourself are you taking measurements of different parts of your body or going on weight? I know when I haven't lifted for a while and start again my weight doesn't really change a huge amount, I just start trading muscle for fat.

Lee

My diet varies but basically:
breakfast: protein shake, and cerial
11's : fruit
lunch: large chicken or smoke salmon salad. Sometimes a wrap.
4's : protein shake and fruit
dinner: some kind of main meal - meat/fish with veg and carbs

To be honest I'm not measuring myself, as I don't know what to measure. I've only just started measuring my weight so will keep an eye on it.
I do notice a little change, but its more that I;m a little more pumped up I suppose (but not much).

[bosshog]

Asterix said:

Am I right in thinking you have missed out Chest exercises - the only DB press you have with elbows in will target triceps as much as anything else.

Is your shoulder knacked enough to not be able to do a proper press or flys? What about decline press/flys? I think they will have a reduced impact on the shoulders.

I probably could do a proper press - but I'm super paranoid about getting another shoulder injury. And elbows out IS a much more risky for your shoulders in general from what I've been told and read. After having 2 shoulder injuries in the last 12 months I don't (at least now) want to risk it. Flys are aparantly the worse thing for shoulders and can lead to plenty of issues form what I was told by a couple of physio and EP's (and Google seems to back this up) - though I personally dont' know.

Are there any other chest exercises I could do that are less risky?

[Ordinary_Chap]

bosshog said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

Can you post your diet as that will help others give feedback. Are you currently gaining/losing weight?

In terms of your injuries, I'm sorry I can't help there but Goldblum or one of the other professional PT's will be along to help I'm sure.

One thing I can say, is 2.5 months isn't very long for someone doing a reduced weight lifting plan to see significant changes although I'd expect some changes at least.

When it comes to measuring yourself are you taking measurements of different parts of your body or going on weight? I know when I haven't lifted for a while and start again my weight doesn't really change a huge amount, I just start trading muscle for fat.

Lee

My diet varies but basically:
breakfast: protein shake, and cerial
11's : fruit
lunch: large chicken or smoke salmon salad. Sometimes a wrap.
4's : protein shake and fruit
dinner: some kind of main meal - meat/fish with veg and carbs

To be honest I'm not measuring myself, as I don't know what to measure. I've only just started measuring my weight so will keep an eye on it.
I do notice a little change, but its more that I;m a little more pumped up I suppose (but not much).

Your diet doesn't sound too bad but maybe a little on the low side. It would be worth trying to use a weight tracking app, either one online or an app for your phone.

It's also worth calculating your BMR to see how many calories you need, although this is only an estimate.

In terms of measuring yourself I was talking about simple measurements like measuring your arms, legs, waist etc to see changes. The problem sometimes have is we see ourselves every day so we don't notice the subtle changes that maybe happening like swapping fat for muscle so the weight may stay around the same but body composition changes.

Another thing I like to do is too take pictures once a week and then compare them over time and see the changes.

No creates motivation like seeing progress!

[Ordinary_Chap]

bosshog said:

Asterix said:

Am I right in thinking you have missed out Chest exercises - the only DB press you have with elbows in will target triceps as much as anything else.

Is your shoulder knacked enough to not be able to do a proper press or flys? What about decline press/flys? I think they will have a reduced impact on the shoulders.

I probably could do a proper press - but I'm super paranoid about getting another shoulder injury. And elbows out IS a much more risky for your shoulders in general from what I've been told and read. After having 2 shoulder injuries in the last 12 months I don't (at least now) want to risk it. Flys are aparantly the worse thing for shoulders and can lead to plenty of issues form what I was told by a couple of physio and EP's (and Google seems to back this up) - though I personally dont' know.

Are there any other chest exercises I could do that are less risky?

Could you do a restricted set of cable flies? I mean not go through the full range of movement.

[Hoofy]

Ordinary_Chap said:

The problem with massively over eating is this, you gain muscle at probably the optimum rate but a lot of the additional calories make no difference and they do make you fat so then after the bulking you've got too get rid the fat by having a calorie deficit which means losing muscle or at best maintain it but for that period you can't do much in terms of growth really.

So that then makes me muse that if you over eat just slightly but use cardio to keep the fat down you should still be able to grow but maybe at 75% rate (this isn't scientific but a guess based on my experiences) you are able to sustain growth far longer since you no longer need to spend time trying to get rid of the fat. In addition to this you don't need to suffer getting fat and thus you are healthier from carrying less weight and doing cardio whilst still growing.

Whilst I'm years and years from your level, it is something I have been thinking about mainly from an "I can't afford to lose what little LBM I have" viewpoint! My conclusion from reading around various blogs and websites, eating just above what you need will mean you can build without putting on excess. The question is, how much do you need?

As for CV work, it seems that any CV work that involves using weights minimises LBM loss eg powerlifting with not-heavy weights (but not light weights) and kettlebell work, interval training style. Avoid steady state at all cost unless you want to get skinny.

[Ordinary_Chap]

Hoofy said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

The problem with massively over eating is this, you gain muscle at probably the optimum rate but a lot of the additional calories make no difference and they do make you fat so then after the bulking you've got too get rid the fat by having a calorie deficit which means losing muscle or at best maintain it but for that period you can't do much in terms of growth really.

So that then makes me muse that if you over eat just slightly but use cardio to keep the fat down you should still be able to grow but maybe at 75% rate (this isn't scientific but a guess based on my experiences) you are able to sustain growth far longer since you no longer need to spend time trying to get rid of the fat. In addition to this you don't need to suffer getting fat and thus you are healthier from carrying less weight and doing cardio whilst still growing.

Whilst I'm years and years from your level, it is something I have been thinking about mainly from an "I can't afford to lose what little LBM I have" viewpoint! My conclusion from reading around various blogs and websites, eating just above what you need will mean you can build without putting on excess. The question is, how much do you need?

As for CV work, it seems that any CV work that involves using weights minimises LBM loss eg powerlifting with not-heavy weights (but not light weights) and kettlebell work, interval training style. Avoid steady state at all cost unless you want to get skinny.

Thanks!

Anyway I do think interval training after a weights session is absolutely brilliant for weight loss and has been scientifically proven so.

Although I'm not sure if I agree on steady state training is bad for LBM. I went through a period of doing it for an hour each morning and I was taking measurements during the period and as far as I could tell I lost no size, the measurements certainly didn't go down, they crept up although maybe I didn't grow as fast I could? (I don't know). Having experienced these things myself isn't scientific whatsoever as there are so many variables but that was my experience.

I can tell you my appetite went off the scale doing interval training after a weights session. It was like my metabolism just went into hyperdrive, I would eat at midnight and wake at 4-5am starving and have a shake ready with oats, I'd then get up at 6.30 and be very hungry again and it went on like that through the day. I think during that period it was the most I've ever ate but I stayed sub 12% body fat.

And going back to bulking, although I was very successful, I was maybe a little too successful with my legs growing so rapidly I ended up with some stretch marks which thankfully aren't visible.

Lots of different approaches out there and there isn't a one size fits all, just what works for you.

[Hoofy]

Were you running to cut or was this during a bulking phase?

I am convinced from speaking to many people who have lost weight or participated in marathons etc that SS exercise is not the best way of losing weight. I understand it is due to adaptive thermogenesis.

[Ordinary_Chap]

Hoofy said:

Were you running to cut or was this during a bulking phase?

I am convinced from speaking to many people who have lost weight or participated in marathons etc that SS exercise is not the best way of losing weight. I understand it is due to adaptive thermogenesis.

I was running gently for an hour each day so thats obviously very much different from folk running marathons.

I was cutting when I did slow steady state cardio, I never used to do cardio when I was bulking.

Lee

[Hoofy]

What bf% were you at the end? (Assuming you jogged until you stopped cutting.)

[Ordinary_Chap]

Hoofy said:

What bf% were you at the end? (Assuming you jogged until you stopped cutting.)

About 8%, I was happy with that and yes I did keep jogging until I got bored of it!

[Hoofy]

Ordinary_Chap said:

About 8%, I was happy with that and yes I did keep jogging until I got bored of it!

I guess you were eating enough protein to keep your muscles going. If you get everything right, I cannot see why you can't cut without any negative effect but for the average person who overestimates calorie burn and underestimates intake, I'd still advise against SS exercise.

[Ordinary_Chap]

Hoofy said:

Ordinary_Chap said:

About 8%, I was happy with that and yes I did keep jogging until I got bored of it!

I guess you were eating enough protein to keep your muscles going. If you get everything right, I cannot see why you can't cut without any negative effect but for the average person who overestimates calorie burn and underestimates intake, I'd still advise against SS exercise.

Fair enough buddy, to be honest I'm still not clear which path is the best one to take for maintaining muscle mass.

And I know you've been around long enough to watch my thoughts evolve on different training principles and I expect they will continue too for many years!