Pre-Workout

[MrWhale]

Do people use these?

Have tried quite a few myself, enjoy the increased energy.

So far I have tried;

Jack3d (old version)
Elite ultimate stack
GAT Nitraflex
craze
grenade .50
MP Pulse
Caffine Tabs

Currently mixing my own using betalaline, cirtulline mallate and caffine. Really like this atm, hurts to train arms as the pump gets so much!

[goldblum]

You'd get a better pump without the caffeine: It stiffens arterial walls which is the opposite of what you need if you're after increased vascularity.

[anonymous-user]

I use jack3d micro, gives a clean pump and good energy. I tried hemorage concentrate, that stuff was crazy but I couldn't sleep. How is craze?

[Regiment]

The old version of Jack3d made my heart go crazy half way through a workout, other than that, all the other Pre-workouts have done nothing for me, even with doubling the recommended daily dose.

[CHIEF]

People may laugh but a couple of nana's prior to a workout does the trick.

[Adz The Rat]

Ages since Ive tried any, might try some next month to push me that bit harder.

[_bryan_]

CHIEF said:

People may laugh but a couple of nana's prior to a workout does the trick.

Not at all, exactly the same as what I have, found they made quite a difference.

[balders118]

My (quite informed) opinion...

All pre workout supplements rely very heavily on the caffeine in them for the stimulant and performance enhancing effects but charge £1+ per serving, where as caffeine on its own (a very effetive pre workout supplement) will cost less than less than 5p per serving.

I.e. just use caffeine at around 4-5mg/kg of bodyweight.

[goldblum]

But why on earth take a vasoconstrictor pre-workout?

[balders118]

Caffeine has great performance enhancing effects. It is consistantly shown to improve cardiovascular performance and has often been shown to improve strength and power too (including in my own research). It is one of few supplements that actually has consistant scientific backing behind it's ability to improve performance. I'm not sure why you would argue against this?

[goldblum]

I'm not. I know people who take caffeine pre-workout and I know people for whom simply looking at a rack of weights gets their adrenals working.

I'm saying there's a plethora of stuff out there if the OP wants a decent pump.

American Heart Association:

..The main novel finding in our study is that caffeine acutely stiffens the aorta and impedes the function of the peripheral muscular arteries..

http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/38/2/227.full

Of course there's a huge number of articles on caffeine and the effects on bp and hardening arteries, and none to refute them, but I'd be happy to be shown some.

[balders118]

goldblum said:

I'm not. I know people who take caffeine pre-workout and I know people for whom simply looking at a rack of weights gets their adrenals working.

I'm saying there's a plethora of stuff out there if the OP wants a decent pump.

American Heart Association:

..The main novel finding in our study is that caffeine acutely stiffens the aorta and impedes the function of the peripheral muscular arteries..

http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/38/2/227.full

Of course there's a huge number of articles on caffeine and the effects on bp and hardening arteries, and none to refute them, but I'd be happy to be shown some.

I never disputed what you said, but the fact still stands that caffeine is a significant ergogenic drug.

I don't have any of the links to these studies as it's been a year or so since I did the research but SO many have found an improvement both aerobic and anaerobic performance.

The mechanisms by which caffeine can improve performance have been suggested as improved FFA utilization, glycogen sparing, increased Na+_K+ ATPase activity and improved motor unit firing and recruitment rates. Some of these have been shown to probably not be the cause but are still conisdered possible.

Studies that have found an improvement in cardiovascular performance include studies by... (Trice and Haymes, 1995; Costill et al., 1978; Greer et al., 2000; Sasaki et al., 1987; Cadarette et al., 1982; Pasman et al., 1995; Graham and Spriet, 1995; Graham and Spriet, 1991; Van Soeren and graham, 1998; Spreit et al, 1991 and Mohr et al 1998) and there will be plenty more.

Studies for strength and power have been less convincing but low samples groups have often hampered significance... (Beck et al., 2006; Duncan and Oxford, 2011; Jacobson et al., 1992; Astorino, 2002; Williams et al., 2008; Hendrix et al., 2010; Del Coso et al. 2012)

Caffeine is without a doubt considered beneficial for cardiovasucalar performance but if you want to read a bit about the indecision on anaerobic activities this review from 2009 is a good one. I expect the full paper will have links to more papers about the aerobic effect too. Davis and Green, 2009

[goldblum]

balders118 said:

I never disputed what you said, but the fact still stands that caffeine is a significant ergogenic drug.

I don't think anyone's saying it isn't.

I'll make myself more clear: Although caffeine is an established performance aid, it's a shame it has a side effect of narrowing arteries during the workout itself. Perhaps if a vasodilator such as AAKG was taken at the same time... .

[balders118]

goldblum said:

I don't think anyone's saying it isn't.

I'll make myself more clear: Although caffeine is an established performance aid, it's a shame it has a side effect of narrowing arteries during the workout itself. Perhaps if a vasodilator such as AAKG was taken at the same time... .

I was just answering this...

goldblum said:

But why on earth take a vasoconstrictor pre-workout?

I think maybe that was a bit of trying to get people like me to bite!

In simple terms I would say it's well worth taking because despite the vasocontriction the other effects greatly outwieigh this resulting in an increased performance.

Anyway, quite enough internet debating for one night.

[goldblum]

balders118 said:

I think maybe that was a bit of trying to get people like me to bite!

Just you, actually. That's why it followed directly your quote and ended with a question mark.

balders118 said:

In simple terms I would say it's well worth taking because despite the vasocontriction the other effects greatly outwieigh this resulting in an increased performance.

Right that's what I was looking for. Thanks for answering, I'm afraid I disagree.
Given that the main benefits of caffeine supplementation lie in endurance training, and given the increase in power in short-rep resistance training is tiny and that caffeine reduces the flexibility of blood vessels at a time when it's crucial that muscles receive increased blood flow I don't personally see the point of it. As previously mentioned, there are other negative side effects, such as raised bp and aortic stiffening. As most long term lifters will ultimately have some kind of cardiac hypertrophy and/or major blood vessel (I.V.C.) dilation, I would venture any supplement taken over the long term which may also damage the heart would not be a wise move.

I would say the end doesn't justify the means.

[Lynch91]

Dark energy

[balders118]

goldblum said:

I would say the end doesn't justify the means.

You're welcome to your own opinion. It's wrong, but you're welcome to it.

[Centurion07]

Box of Jaffa cakes.