Post workout supplements
Discussion
Hi,
I'm hoping the wise and fit folk of PH may be able to help me out.
I'm training for increased muscle size and currently take phd synergy iso7 post workout (and occasionally at other times if I need to top up my macros). However, I'm not convinced my body is getting enough of what it needs immediately after training. Therefore, as I'm just running out of iso7 I thought I'd see what else is available.
I've noticed that a lot of people seem to use post workout recovery drinks which, I think, contain a high proportion of dextrose. A bit of googling suggests this is vital for replenishing glycogen stores to avoid a prolonged catabolic state. Personally, I always thought protein was key, but now I'm not so sure. Should I be using an all in one that doesn't seem to contain much in the way of simple carbs, or a glucose packed recovery drink?
As a final note, can I just confirm that I know diet is key and I don't use supplements as some sort of miracle aid. I want to be able to train hard, eat well and see some modest results. I just want to make sure I'm not making things more difficult for myself that they could be.
Thanks for any advice
I'm hoping the wise and fit folk of PH may be able to help me out.
I'm training for increased muscle size and currently take phd synergy iso7 post workout (and occasionally at other times if I need to top up my macros). However, I'm not convinced my body is getting enough of what it needs immediately after training. Therefore, as I'm just running out of iso7 I thought I'd see what else is available.
I've noticed that a lot of people seem to use post workout recovery drinks which, I think, contain a high proportion of dextrose. A bit of googling suggests this is vital for replenishing glycogen stores to avoid a prolonged catabolic state. Personally, I always thought protein was key, but now I'm not so sure. Should I be using an all in one that doesn't seem to contain much in the way of simple carbs, or a glucose packed recovery drink?
As a final note, can I just confirm that I know diet is key and I don't use supplements as some sort of miracle aid. I want to be able to train hard, eat well and see some modest results. I just want to make sure I'm not making things more difficult for myself that they could be.
Thanks for any advice
I'm watching this thread for answers as i am in the same boat.
Going to the gym and i am on iso7, taking one at night just a little before i go to bed and then another one in the morning, after a work out. I've noticed some muscle gain, but ultimately i'm looking on reducing body fat first and then bulking up. I'm eating the Supreme protein bars in the morning too, which pack about 30g of protein and taste yummy. But would like to know if there is anything else i should be taking to help, like you're asking.
Going to the gym and i am on iso7, taking one at night just a little before i go to bed and then another one in the morning, after a work out. I've noticed some muscle gain, but ultimately i'm looking on reducing body fat first and then bulking up. I'm eating the Supreme protein bars in the morning too, which pack about 30g of protein and taste yummy. But would like to know if there is anything else i should be taking to help, like you're asking.
My post workout is made by me rather than an all in one.
Currently it is:
50g dextrose
5g creatine
5g L glutamine
3g beta alanine
60g of 90% protein.
Will be dropping glutamine and alanine though when I run out.
Dextrose is a good post workout supplement although no doubt someone will argue otherwise. You need a simple (I think) carb for post workout and protein obviously.
Cheapest way is to make it like I do
Currently it is:
50g dextrose
5g creatine
5g L glutamine
3g beta alanine
60g of 90% protein.
Will be dropping glutamine and alanine though when I run out.
Dextrose is a good post workout supplement although no doubt someone will argue otherwise. You need a simple (I think) carb for post workout and protein obviously.
Cheapest way is to make it like I do
Consume a decent whey protein or a pint of milk soon after a weight workout.
That’s all you need really IMO. Don’t spend a fortune on whey either – it’s a cheap product and can be found for cheap money. Don’t be taken in by the marketing and fancy packaging of over-priced stuff that aside from the flavours, is almost all identical.
I take cod liver oil as I lack fish in my diet + a multivit.
That’s all you need really IMO. Don’t spend a fortune on whey either – it’s a cheap product and can be found for cheap money. Don’t be taken in by the marketing and fancy packaging of over-priced stuff that aside from the flavours, is almost all identical.
I take cod liver oil as I lack fish in my diet + a multivit.
Protein (e.g. whey protein) and simple sugars straight after workout - can be dextrose in a shake of food though tbh. Will help replenish stores, but also increase insulin will help protein utilisation. (can have amno acids such as glutathione, and creatine here if desired)
If you are getting serious, avoid fats during this time as the insulin increase will lead to greater fat deposition (but mainly a consideration at low %BF and when using as part of a cutting/weight loss process.
If you are getting serious, avoid fats during this time as the insulin increase will lead to greater fat deposition (but mainly a consideration at low %BF and when using as part of a cutting/weight loss process.
I’m not sure carbs PWO are necessary. They sound like un-needed calories to me.
I’ve read that protein alone will be enough to spike insulin so it gets a fast take up.
We’re not professional athletes, most working desk jobs and training an hour a day – not exactly enough to entirely deplete your glycogen stores… plus when you eat your dinner or next meal, you’re getting calories in.
I’m not sure how long it would take for example PB on toast/bread to be digested but say you had that an hour or so before training, I’m sure that the nutrients in that would still be utilised after you’ve finished your workout some 2 hours later.
If you’re on a very low carb diet (not keto) then maybe it could be beneficial, but if you’re aim is to lose excess weight, I honestly don’t think carbs post workout are needed. I agree that high GI carbs if you are going to take them, would be better suited around your training when your body is under or about to go under more stress, but we are not professional athletes and we are pretty sedentary during the day where we are eating all day anyway.
Just my opinion.
I’ve read that protein alone will be enough to spike insulin so it gets a fast take up.
We’re not professional athletes, most working desk jobs and training an hour a day – not exactly enough to entirely deplete your glycogen stores… plus when you eat your dinner or next meal, you’re getting calories in.
I’m not sure how long it would take for example PB on toast/bread to be digested but say you had that an hour or so before training, I’m sure that the nutrients in that would still be utilised after you’ve finished your workout some 2 hours later.
If you’re on a very low carb diet (not keto) then maybe it could be beneficial, but if you’re aim is to lose excess weight, I honestly don’t think carbs post workout are needed. I agree that high GI carbs if you are going to take them, would be better suited around your training when your body is under or about to go under more stress, but we are not professional athletes and we are pretty sedentary during the day where we are eating all day anyway.
Just my opinion.
mu0n said:
I’m not sure carbs PWO are necessary. They sound like un-needed calories to me.
I’ve read that protein alone will be enough to spike insulin so it gets a fast take up.
We’re not professional athletes, most working desk jobs and training an hour a day – not exactly enough to entirely deplete your glycogen stores… plus when you eat your dinner or next meal, you’re getting calories in.
I’m not sure how long it would take for example PB on toast/bread to be digested but say you had that an hour or so before training, I’m sure that the nutrients in that would still be utilised after you’ve finished your workout some 2 hours later.
If you’re on a very low carb diet (not keto) then maybe it could be beneficial, but if you’re aim is to lose excess weight, I honestly don’t think carbs post workout are needed. I agree that high GI carbs if you are going to take them, would be better suited around your training when your body is under or about to go under more stress, but we are not professional athletes and we are pretty sedentary during the day where we are eating all day anyway.
Just my opinion.
Definitely most important as part of a low carb diet, even normally though, the post workout carbs are beneficial to recovery - but will depend on the rest of the diet, and training intensity etc. I’ve read that protein alone will be enough to spike insulin so it gets a fast take up.
We’re not professional athletes, most working desk jobs and training an hour a day – not exactly enough to entirely deplete your glycogen stores… plus when you eat your dinner or next meal, you’re getting calories in.
I’m not sure how long it would take for example PB on toast/bread to be digested but say you had that an hour or so before training, I’m sure that the nutrients in that would still be utilised after you’ve finished your workout some 2 hours later.
If you’re on a very low carb diet (not keto) then maybe it could be beneficial, but if you’re aim is to lose excess weight, I honestly don’t think carbs post workout are needed. I agree that high GI carbs if you are going to take them, would be better suited around your training when your body is under or about to go under more stress, but we are not professional athletes and we are pretty sedentary during the day where we are eating all day anyway.
Just my opinion.
Yeah, I think it’s been proven that there is no such thing as an anabolic window. Heck, I think even protein or whatever is not even necessary straight away – the ‘window’ as such is way bigger than the 30 minutes, 1 hour or whatever people seem to throw about willy nilly. There have been studies on this and meal timings are not important, including around training. It doesn’t affect body composition.
Mentally may be a different story, but that is more pre workout than post workout.
Mentally may be a different story, but that is more pre workout than post workout.
Protein sensitivity lasts for at least 24h after resistance training:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204
Protein timing has no effect on strength or body composition:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289204
Protein timing has no effect on strength or body composition:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19478342
Flibble said:
Cheapest post workout drink is plain milk; has protein and carbs (as lactose), works about as well as anything else (maybe mix in a bit of creatine).
Sport scientist friend of mine said tesco chocolate milk is a good post work out thing to have. Has pretty much what you need and in the right ratios. I am not sure how much you have to drink though.Smiffy180... why Beta Alanine after your work out? Isn't that stuff supposed to help you stave off the old lactic acid during exercise? I guess it is just something you have to take daily though. I did a month trial study for a friend and had to take these massive beta alanine tablets, 2 off 4 times a day. Gave me a tingly face! But didn't do much for the lactic though! I still bombed on the final bike test!
Take what the pros say with a pinch of salt as they are paid to promote brands/products.
And yes steroids et al make a huge difference.
When you are at the top you will do something if it increases your chances by 0.001%. That does not mean it's effective, worth it or based on scientific fact.
And yes steroids et al make a huge difference.
When you are at the top you will do something if it increases your chances by 0.001%. That does not mean it's effective, worth it or based on scientific fact.
Just out of curiosity, has any used (or have an opinion of) this:
http://monstersupplements.com/store/p/3510/1/CNP-P...
http://monstersupplements.com/store/p/3510/1/CNP-P...
An interesting discussion. I've had a quick look through the recent literature and their is still a wide range of opinions. I think part of the problem with many of these studies are with small participant numbers, and the basic variability of individuals - genetic, other diet, training background etc. plus the inherent error of the measurements. so it's hard to get an absolute baseline.
Best to find what works for the individual, even if that is based on partially anecdotal evidence.
Regarding the recovery drink posted above. to be brutaly honest, I'd just buy some decent whey, some multivits and a few pots of nice jam. Given these are bulked out with sugars massively - even buy some dextrose if you want to make your own as it'll be cheaper.
all IMO
Best to find what works for the individual, even if that is based on partially anecdotal evidence.
Regarding the recovery drink posted above. to be brutaly honest, I'd just buy some decent whey, some multivits and a few pots of nice jam. Given these are bulked out with sugars massively - even buy some dextrose if you want to make your own as it'll be cheaper.
all IMO
DSharp said:
An interesting discussion. I've had a quick look through the recent literature and their is still a wide range of opinions. I think part of the problem with many of these studies are with small participant numbers, and the basic variability of individuals - genetic, other diet, training background etc. plus the inherent error of the measurements. so it's hard to get an absolute baseline.
Best to find what works for the individual, even if that is based on partially anecdotal evidence.
Regarding the recovery drink posted above. to be brutaly honest, I'd just buy some decent whey, some multivits and a few pots of nice jam. Given these are bulked out with sugars massively - even buy some dextrose if you want to make your own as it'll be cheaper.
all IMO
If you're into science at all, you will understand when I say that a theory is just that until it's proven right or wrong. If a theory has not been proven, it cannot be used as fact.Best to find what works for the individual, even if that is based on partially anecdotal evidence.
Regarding the recovery drink posted above. to be brutaly honest, I'd just buy some decent whey, some multivits and a few pots of nice jam. Given these are bulked out with sugars massively - even buy some dextrose if you want to make your own as it'll be cheaper.
all IMO
Just because Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman suggest you take PHD superdooper whey complex within 30 minutes after dropping your last weight for maximum protein synthesis doesn't mean it's factually correct.
Those studies above may well use small groups, but it is a study, with a theory and it has physical results that can be measured.
mu0n said:
If you're into science at all, you will understand when I say that a theory is just that until it's proven right or wrong. If a theory has not been proven, it cannot be used as fact.
Just because Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman suggest you take PHD superdooper whey complex within 30 minutes after dropping your last weight for maximum protein synthesis doesn't mean it's factually correct.
Those studies above may well use small groups, but it is a study, with a theory and it has physical results that can be measured.
lol you could say im into science yes Just because Jay Cutler or Ronnie Coleman suggest you take PHD superdooper whey complex within 30 minutes after dropping your last weight for maximum protein synthesis doesn't mean it's factually correct.
Those studies above may well use small groups, but it is a study, with a theory and it has physical results that can be measured.
What you have said is true, but also, just because it has been published doesn't make it true either.
The biochemical and physiological results are more reliable, but a persons increase in 1rep max after 12 weeks training can vary for so many reasons, conscious or sub-consciously.
I believe the overall 'true answer' has yet to be proven either way, and is subject to a host of other factors that are not always considered.
DSharp said:
lol you could say im into science yes
What you have said is true, but also, just because it has been published doesn't make it true either.
The biochemical and physiological results are more reliable, but a persons increase in 1rep max after 12 weeks training can vary for so many reasons, conscious or sub-consciously.
I believe the overall 'true answer' has yet to be proven either way, and is subject to a host of other factors that are not always considered.
Yep, I agree there are a lot of variables and I think that where you are mentally is very crucial, but it’s difficult to factor in. Obviously if you studied thousands of people on the same control, you’d get a much better idea, but it could still be picked apart.What you have said is true, but also, just because it has been published doesn't make it true either.
The biochemical and physiological results are more reliable, but a persons increase in 1rep max after 12 weeks training can vary for so many reasons, conscious or sub-consciously.
I believe the overall 'true answer' has yet to be proven either way, and is subject to a host of other factors that are not always considered.
The thing is, if you speak to anyone who has looked at this in depth, they will tell you that your body’s hormones are sensitive for protein synthesis for way longer than people suggest – up to 24 hours after working out. People suggesting it needs to be ingested within minutes are just relaying on what someone told them, without proper facts or research (like much of the health industry). I would say that after working out you should probably be eating something within a couple of hours though, mainly because you will be tired. However, research and studies have shown that you could meet your macro’s for the day, workout in the evening, not eat anything until the next day and again hit your targets, repeat, and it will make no difference.
Hell, you could eat all your daily calories in 1 meal. Not advisable because you’ll be hungry, but it won’t affect your body composition negatively.
As you are into your science, you will also know that a lot of things we think of as obvious aren’t, and are counter-intuitive, probably because certain things we’ve heard repeated so many times we just take them as factual when they aren’t.
It has been proven time and time again that meal timings ARE NOT IMPORTANT. Study your calorific/macro intake over a 24 hour period minimum, preferably over a week. It does not affect body composition. It’s like those who say you shouldn’t eat carbs after 6pm or whatever. It’s just rehashed bulls
t that has been proven to be bullst.What people need to get out of their heads is because someone is shredded or looks amazing, doesn’t mean they know much about science. Sure, drinking a protein shake directly after a workout, avoiding carbs after 6pm but still meeting your daily macros and training properly WILL give you great results, but alternatively, hitting your daily macros, not drinking a protein shake directly after a workout and eating carbs after 6pm will still get you looking the same.
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