Knee MRI - Crowd-sourced interpretation of images
Discussion
Not a Doctor, or even close, although I am currently training to be a Paramedic 
But anyway, I can't / won't comment on the scan pictures, as frankly although I can recognise most of it, I don't have the training to be helpful!
However, I can comment as someone who has also injured their knee and had two arthroscopy operations to help it subsequently...
I fell off a motorbike back in the mid 90's, and as I went down my foot was trapped with the inner edge downwards, but my body rolled the other way and hence my knee joint was twisted around.
This damaged (by tearing and stretching) mainly the medial ligaments, which are on the inside of the leg, (ligaments are the tight elastic 'bands' which hold joints together) and the Anterior Cruciate Ligament, which is the biggest ligament which runs right through the centre of the knee joint, between the condyles, from the distal end of the femur, and the proximal ends of the tib / fib.
If your knee joint is now unstable, and prone to lateral flexion, then the simple fact is that you have damaged and stretched one or more of the ligaments.
It is also possible that you have damaged the meniscus cartilage, which is the shock-absorbing pad which sits between the ends of the bones, and obviously prevents bone rubbing on bone when you walk / run etc.
The bad news is that ligament damage is a nightmare. Once stretched and damaged, they are a bugger to sort out, and often are never the same again.
My rehabilitation was to rest the joint, and then use it as much as possible again, gently at first obviously, and then try to build up the supporting muscles around the joint as much as possible - to help stabilise the weak joint, and give the ligaments as easy a life as possible and time to recover.
This meant a combination of much gym work on the joint - resistance training like leg extensions, leg curls, leg presses - and then running.
I managed to get it back to what I would reckon as around 95% strength and maybe 85% movement. The scar tissue around the joint meant that I could no longer bend the joint all the way (meaning I can't squat down comfortably) and it won't hyperextend like the other leg (i.e. stretching it straight so that it bends slightly upwards kind of thing).
After about 10 years however, it started to give pain and lock up occasionally. I had an MRI which showed that the joint was starting to wear abnormally, and had some bits and bobs floating around inside. So I had my first arthroscopy operation, which sorted it out.
Then 3 years later, it played up again, and this time it seems that the bottom of my femur had grown an unusual bit of random bone, and the articular cartilage (the really hard enamel type stuff on the end of the bone) was very worn, because of all the running I did on a slightly unstable joint.
So I had a 2nd operation, and this time the Consultant told me (at 37 years old) that I must stop running immediately, and be careful exercising the joint from now on. Some swimming and a little cycling and walking is fine, hard gym work and running is not.
So depending upon your age, knee joints can be a bugger once they are damaged, but can be helped along for a while. The best thing to do is rest and GENTLE exercise, and then be bloody careful with it if you get it back to strength.
If the ligaments are really bad, you can have an operation to basically cut and tighten them, but it is a big op with a huge rehab period after, and not recommended unless it's horrendously bad.
I hope this all helps and hasn't scared you too much! I am commenting on my joint, yours might be totally different and you'll be fine.
Let us know how you get on, and what the Doctors say about your scan.
Best of luck matey.
But anyway, I can't / won't comment on the scan pictures, as frankly although I can recognise most of it, I don't have the training to be helpful!
However, I can comment as someone who has also injured their knee and had two arthroscopy operations to help it subsequently...
I fell off a motorbike back in the mid 90's, and as I went down my foot was trapped with the inner edge downwards, but my body rolled the other way and hence my knee joint was twisted around.
This damaged (by tearing and stretching) mainly the medial ligaments, which are on the inside of the leg, (ligaments are the tight elastic 'bands' which hold joints together) and the Anterior Cruciate Ligament, which is the biggest ligament which runs right through the centre of the knee joint, between the condyles, from the distal end of the femur, and the proximal ends of the tib / fib.
If your knee joint is now unstable, and prone to lateral flexion, then the simple fact is that you have damaged and stretched one or more of the ligaments.
It is also possible that you have damaged the meniscus cartilage, which is the shock-absorbing pad which sits between the ends of the bones, and obviously prevents bone rubbing on bone when you walk / run etc.
The bad news is that ligament damage is a nightmare. Once stretched and damaged, they are a bugger to sort out, and often are never the same again.
My rehabilitation was to rest the joint, and then use it as much as possible again, gently at first obviously, and then try to build up the supporting muscles around the joint as much as possible - to help stabilise the weak joint, and give the ligaments as easy a life as possible and time to recover.
This meant a combination of much gym work on the joint - resistance training like leg extensions, leg curls, leg presses - and then running.
I managed to get it back to what I would reckon as around 95% strength and maybe 85% movement. The scar tissue around the joint meant that I could no longer bend the joint all the way (meaning I can't squat down comfortably) and it won't hyperextend like the other leg (i.e. stretching it straight so that it bends slightly upwards kind of thing).
After about 10 years however, it started to give pain and lock up occasionally. I had an MRI which showed that the joint was starting to wear abnormally, and had some bits and bobs floating around inside. So I had my first arthroscopy operation, which sorted it out.
Then 3 years later, it played up again, and this time it seems that the bottom of my femur had grown an unusual bit of random bone, and the articular cartilage (the really hard enamel type stuff on the end of the bone) was very worn, because of all the running I did on a slightly unstable joint.
So I had a 2nd operation, and this time the Consultant told me (at 37 years old) that I must stop running immediately, and be careful exercising the joint from now on. Some swimming and a little cycling and walking is fine, hard gym work and running is not.
So depending upon your age, knee joints can be a bugger once they are damaged, but can be helped along for a while. The best thing to do is rest and GENTLE exercise, and then be bloody careful with it if you get it back to strength.
If the ligaments are really bad, you can have an operation to basically cut and tighten them, but it is a big op with a huge rehab period after, and not recommended unless it's horrendously bad.
I hope this all helps and hasn't scared you too much! I am commenting on my joint, yours might be totally different and you'll be fine.
Let us know how you get on, and what the Doctors say about your scan.
Best of luck matey.
When I was 29, playing footie every week, I had an incident in which having jumped for a header I landed on a straight leg and the joint bent backwards. There was an awful sound and it was agony. I damaged cruciates but thankfully did not rupture them. In those days ligament surgery was limited to elite sportsmen and people whose livelyhoods would be at risk through restricted movement. Other than physio the only treatment I had was draining blood/fluid from the joint which ballooned.
The outcome was a week off work then hobbling around for a month. Resumed light jogging 5-6 months later and played on for another 15 seasons. The knee stayed loose for about a year or two. By this I mean when at my desk with legs stretched out sometimes it would lock in the backward position and I would have to "flick" it up before I could flex normally. Weird. It's not quite 30 years since it happened and now the only reminder I get is when I ski as the damaged knee does not feel quite as secure as the other. I had MRI scans on both knees about 10 years ago and my gaps were normal.
The outcome was a week off work then hobbling around for a month. Resumed light jogging 5-6 months later and played on for another 15 seasons. The knee stayed loose for about a year or two. By this I mean when at my desk with legs stretched out sometimes it would lock in the backward position and I would have to "flick" it up before I could flex normally. Weird. It's not quite 30 years since it happened and now the only reminder I get is when I ski as the damaged knee does not feel quite as secure as the other. I had MRI scans on both knees about 10 years ago and my gaps were normal.
OP, are you freaking kidding?
It takes a consultant radiologist specialising in musculoskeletal radiology about 15 years of training to interpret MRI in a reliable way.
Nobody should comment on your scans, all it will do is scare you with non-fact. Management decisions I make on my knee patients are helped by the MRI, but not made on the basis of the MRI. The clinical examination is far more helpful.
Soz
It takes a consultant radiologist specialising in musculoskeletal radiology about 15 years of training to interpret MRI in a reliable way.
Nobody should comment on your scans, all it will do is scare you with non-fact. Management decisions I make on my knee patients are helped by the MRI, but not made on the basis of the MRI. The clinical examination is far more helpful.
Soz
Edited by The_Doc on Saturday 31st August 14:24
Having got a disk of MRI results last week there are plenty of websites which aid the professional radiographer in there training. After reviewing them I would concur with the doc above. They are extremely tricky things to interpret, mainly due to all the possible things that may be wrong with your knee. Obviously a MRI helps guide and support clinical observations of the normal knee tests, Lachman, tap test etc.
Looking at you pics I can at least Id the main bones, patella and your PCL, ACL looks like it could have a tear. There is a vertical line on one of your meniscus which could also be a tear. Then again I am a civil engineer with only a passing interest in knees as one of mine is fubard!
Just wait for the consultant follow up, my first MRI correctly spotted everything that was later confirmed during surgery.
I will await an arthroscopy that the NHS have generously offered to pay to have done privately, as they are so over worked.
Looking at you pics I can at least Id the main bones, patella and your PCL, ACL looks like it could have a tear. There is a vertical line on one of your meniscus which could also be a tear. Then again I am a civil engineer with only a passing interest in knees as one of mine is fubard!
Just wait for the consultant follow up, my first MRI correctly spotted everything that was later confirmed during surgery.
I will await an arthroscopy that the NHS have generously offered to pay to have done privately, as they are so over worked.
Ray Luxury-Yacht said:
Not a Doctor, or even close, although I am currently training to be a Paramedic
But anyway, I can't / won't comment on the scan pictures, as frankly although I can recognise most of it, I don't have the training to be helpful!
However, I can comment as someone who has also injured their knee and had two arthroscopy operations to help it subsequently...
I fell off a motorbike back in the mid 90's, and as I went down my foot was trapped with the inner edge downwards, but my body rolled the other way and hence my knee joint was twisted around.
This damaged (by tearing and stretching) mainly the medial ligaments, which are on the inside of the leg, (ligaments are the tight elastic 'bands' which hold joints together) and the Anterior Cruciate Ligament, which is the biggest ligament which runs right through the centre of the knee joint, between the condyles, from the distal end of the femur, and the proximal ends of the tib / fib.
If your knee joint is now unstable, and prone to lateral flexion, then the simple fact is that you have damaged and stretched one or more of the ligaments.
It is also possible that you have damaged the meniscus cartilage, which is the shock-absorbing pad which sits between the ends of the bones, and obviously prevents bone rubbing on bone when you walk / run etc.
The bad news is that ligament damage is a nightmare. Once stretched and damaged, they are a bugger to sort out, and often are never the same again.
My rehabilitation was to rest the joint, and then use it as much as possible again, gently at first obviously, and then try to build up the supporting muscles around the joint as much as possible - to help stabilise the weak joint, and give the ligaments as easy a life as possible and time to recover.
This meant a combination of much gym work on the joint - resistance training like leg extensions, leg curls, leg presses - and then running.
I managed to get it back to what I would reckon as around 95% strength and maybe 85% movement. The scar tissue around the joint meant that I could no longer bend the joint all the way (meaning I can't squat down comfortably) and it won't hyperextend like the other leg (i.e. stretching it straight so that it bends slightly upwards kind of thing).
After about 10 years however, it started to give pain and lock up occasionally. I had an MRI which showed that the joint was starting to wear abnormally, and had some bits and bobs floating around inside. So I had my first arthroscopy operation, which sorted it out.
Then 3 years later, it played up again, and this time it seems that the bottom of my femur had grown an unusual bit of random bone, and the articular cartilage (the really hard enamel type stuff on the end of the bone) was very worn, because of all the running I did on a slightly unstable joint.
So I had a 2nd operation, and this time the Consultant told me (at 37 years old) that I must stop running immediately, and be careful exercising the joint from now on. Some swimming and a little cycling and walking is fine, hard gym work and running is not.
So depending upon your age, knee joints can be a bugger once they are damaged, but can be helped along for a while. The best thing to do is rest and GENTLE exercise, and then be bloody careful with it if you get it back to strength.
If the ligaments are really bad, you can have an operation to basically cut and tighten them, but it is a big op with a huge rehab period after, and not recommended unless it's horrendously bad.
I hope this all helps and hasn't scared you too much! I am commenting on my joint, yours might be totally different and you'll be fine.
Let us know how you get on, and what the Doctors say about your scan.
Best of luck matey.
Thanks for such a comprehensive reply. I understand that everyone varies and that amateur interpretations of images from an MRI scan are probably not wise. It is just sheer impatience that has me wanting answers. Ordinarily I would have rugby 2/3 times a week, plus a match, plus my own training at home, plus dog walking, plus biking. All of the aforementioned activities are comparative luxuries now that I am stumped by something as simple as stairs...But anyway, I can't / won't comment on the scan pictures, as frankly although I can recognise most of it, I don't have the training to be helpful!
However, I can comment as someone who has also injured their knee and had two arthroscopy operations to help it subsequently...
I fell off a motorbike back in the mid 90's, and as I went down my foot was trapped with the inner edge downwards, but my body rolled the other way and hence my knee joint was twisted around.
This damaged (by tearing and stretching) mainly the medial ligaments, which are on the inside of the leg, (ligaments are the tight elastic 'bands' which hold joints together) and the Anterior Cruciate Ligament, which is the biggest ligament which runs right through the centre of the knee joint, between the condyles, from the distal end of the femur, and the proximal ends of the tib / fib.
If your knee joint is now unstable, and prone to lateral flexion, then the simple fact is that you have damaged and stretched one or more of the ligaments.
It is also possible that you have damaged the meniscus cartilage, which is the shock-absorbing pad which sits between the ends of the bones, and obviously prevents bone rubbing on bone when you walk / run etc.
The bad news is that ligament damage is a nightmare. Once stretched and damaged, they are a bugger to sort out, and often are never the same again.
My rehabilitation was to rest the joint, and then use it as much as possible again, gently at first obviously, and then try to build up the supporting muscles around the joint as much as possible - to help stabilise the weak joint, and give the ligaments as easy a life as possible and time to recover.
This meant a combination of much gym work on the joint - resistance training like leg extensions, leg curls, leg presses - and then running.
I managed to get it back to what I would reckon as around 95% strength and maybe 85% movement. The scar tissue around the joint meant that I could no longer bend the joint all the way (meaning I can't squat down comfortably) and it won't hyperextend like the other leg (i.e. stretching it straight so that it bends slightly upwards kind of thing).
After about 10 years however, it started to give pain and lock up occasionally. I had an MRI which showed that the joint was starting to wear abnormally, and had some bits and bobs floating around inside. So I had my first arthroscopy operation, which sorted it out.
Then 3 years later, it played up again, and this time it seems that the bottom of my femur had grown an unusual bit of random bone, and the articular cartilage (the really hard enamel type stuff on the end of the bone) was very worn, because of all the running I did on a slightly unstable joint.
So I had a 2nd operation, and this time the Consultant told me (at 37 years old) that I must stop running immediately, and be careful exercising the joint from now on. Some swimming and a little cycling and walking is fine, hard gym work and running is not.
So depending upon your age, knee joints can be a bugger once they are damaged, but can be helped along for a while. The best thing to do is rest and GENTLE exercise, and then be bloody careful with it if you get it back to strength.
If the ligaments are really bad, you can have an operation to basically cut and tighten them, but it is a big op with a huge rehab period after, and not recommended unless it's horrendously bad.
I hope this all helps and hasn't scared you too much! I am commenting on my joint, yours might be totally different and you'll be fine.
Let us know how you get on, and what the Doctors say about your scan.
Best of luck matey.
I know many are far worse off than I am, I know that free healthcare is one of the greatest luxuries in the developed word, I know that it will probably get better. I just loathe the profound change in lifestyle.
If my default setting was that of a sloth, enjoying computer games and TV etc., perhaps it wouldnt be so bad... Fact is, I barely watch TV and am active all the time.
More positive news: I have my appointment with a consultant on Wednesday when he will tell me exactly what is afoot (aknee more appropriately).
best,
Fred
The_Doc said:
OP, are you freaking kidding?
It takes a consultant radiologist specialising in musculoskeletal radiology about 15 years of training to interpret MRI in a reliable way.
Nobody should comment on your scans, all it will do is scare you with non-fact. Management decisions I make on my knee patients are helped by the MRI, but not made on the basis of the MRI. The clinical examination is far more helpful.
Soz
I understand what you are saying. I am just intensely impatient and dislike the shift in lifestyle this has given me. As mentioned above, I know it could be way worse and I am lucky in many respects, I just hate missing rugby and not doing the things I like; hence searching for answers in the wrong places.It takes a consultant radiologist specialising in musculoskeletal radiology about 15 years of training to interpret MRI in a reliable way.
Nobody should comment on your scans, all it will do is scare you with non-fact. Management decisions I make on my knee patients are helped by the MRI, but not made on the basis of the MRI. The clinical examination is far more helpful.
Soz
Edited by The_Doc on Saturday 31st August 14:24
ALawson said:
Having got a disk of MRI results last week there are plenty of websites which aid the professional radiographer in there training. After reviewing them I would concur with the doc above. They are extremely tricky things to interpret, mainly due to all the possible things that may be wrong with your knee. Obviously a MRI helps guide and support clinical observations of the normal knee tests, Lachman, tap test etc.
Looking at you pics I can at least Id the main bones, patella and your PCL, ACL looks like it could have a tear. There is a vertical line on one of your meniscus which could also be a tear. Then again I am a civil engineer with only a passing interest in knees as one of mine is fubard!
Just wait for the consultant follow up, my first MRI correctly spotted everything that was later confirmed during surgery.
I will await an arthroscopy that the NHS have generously offered to pay to have done privately, as they are so over worked.
Glad to hear the NHS realise and rectify their failings. I will tell you how your ideas square up to those of the consultant on Weds.Looking at you pics I can at least Id the main bones, patella and your PCL, ACL looks like it could have a tear. There is a vertical line on one of your meniscus which could also be a tear. Then again I am a civil engineer with only a passing interest in knees as one of mine is fubard!
Just wait for the consultant follow up, my first MRI correctly spotted everything that was later confirmed during surgery.
I will await an arthroscopy that the NHS have generously offered to pay to have done privately, as they are so over worked.
Thanks,
fred
To ever so slightly jump topic:
Exercising whilst knee is damaged...
Due to what I like doing in my spare time, I am used to training a lot. I wonder if anyone has advice for keeping up training whilst damaged knee recovers.
Because of how I carry myself at the moment, extended periods of walking make for a sore back, running is out of the question for now, as is cycling.
My upper body, however, is fine. Does this mean I can near enough carry on as I was with upper body weight training? Is it a good idea to keep my body used to exercise in whatever for I can comfortably throw at it?
The flip side of this is embracing the life of a sedentary slug, losing what I worked hard to gain (fitness and mass) in the pre-season.
Any advice appreciated.
Best,
Fred.
Exercising whilst knee is damaged...
Due to what I like doing in my spare time, I am used to training a lot. I wonder if anyone has advice for keeping up training whilst damaged knee recovers.
Because of how I carry myself at the moment, extended periods of walking make for a sore back, running is out of the question for now, as is cycling.
My upper body, however, is fine. Does this mean I can near enough carry on as I was with upper body weight training? Is it a good idea to keep my body used to exercise in whatever for I can comfortably throw at it?
The flip side of this is embracing the life of a sedentary slug, losing what I worked hard to gain (fitness and mass) in the pre-season.
Any advice appreciated.
Best,
Fred.
coombsfh said:
To ever so slightly jump topic:
Exercising whilst knee is damaged...
Due to what I like doing in my spare time, I am used to training a lot. I wonder if anyone has advice for keeping up training whilst damaged knee recovers.
Because of how I carry myself at the moment, extended periods of walking make for a sore back, running is out of the question for now, as is cycling.
My upper body, however, is fine. Does this mean I can near enough carry on as I was with upper body weight training? Is it a good idea to keep my body used to exercise in whatever for I can comfortably throw at it?
The flip side of this is embracing the life of a sedentary slug, losing what I worked hard to gain (fitness and mass) in the pre-season.
Any advice appreciated.
Best,
Fred.
Any particular reason why cycling is out? I've got one of the most mashed knees going but I find cycling improves it greatly Exercising whilst knee is damaged...
Due to what I like doing in my spare time, I am used to training a lot. I wonder if anyone has advice for keeping up training whilst damaged knee recovers.
Because of how I carry myself at the moment, extended periods of walking make for a sore back, running is out of the question for now, as is cycling.
My upper body, however, is fine. Does this mean I can near enough carry on as I was with upper body weight training? Is it a good idea to keep my body used to exercise in whatever for I can comfortably throw at it?
The flip side of this is embracing the life of a sedentary slug, losing what I worked hard to gain (fitness and mass) in the pre-season.
Any advice appreciated.
Best,
Fred.
WinstonWolf said:
Any particular reason why cycling is out? I've got one of the most mashed knees going but I find cycling improves it greatly
Agreed, unless you have or have had a bucket handle tear/locking knee, or can feel something floating around or grinding I would have thought cycling would be fine.What has a physio or consultant said?
WinstonWolf said:
Any particular reason why cycling is out? I've got one of the most mashed knees going but I find cycling improves it greatly
certainly for the moment I have about 20 degrees of movement before pain and a physical inability to bend beyond that point inhibit progress...Cycling for the moment is out of the question as I have very little movement, despite trying to encourage it by walking, doing stairs etc... No physio good advice on what I should do with it. Doc said rest it and ice it, but do as much as you can (conflicting advice).
I miss being active a lot and think swimming might not be a bad one to try...
I miss being active a lot and think swimming might not be a bad one to try...
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