Ketogenic diet, anyone done/doing one?
Discussion
I started last week and it must just be starting to kick in as I feel light headed and even a tad headachey today.
Damn it's horrible. Years of eating well and properly and suddenly I'm buying all this crap CHD-tastic food. I'm really struggling to make a fulfilling meal though, with largely meats and low carb/sugar fruit and veg. It's like trying to be a carnivorous rabbit or something.
But the hardest bit of all is trying to get around in daily life without my HR going beyond 120bpm. I tried cycling to a clients today with a HR monitor on and damn, I had to dawdle. The slightest hill meant getting off and walking. And even walking up a hill is like 110bpm+...
After the cycle I did my usual thing and bolted up 2 flights of stairs up to my bedroom. Mistake. 140bpm+ in an instant.
It's amazing how your HR goes up without you even noticing. I know on some cycle rides I'll like hit 190bpm on a hiillclimb but I'm only "out of breath" rather than killing myself.
When I get back to gym'ing it (currently on 2 weeks off) I know DL, BP, BOR, Squatting, even in a 6 rep range is going to send my HR way over the 120bpm target. I guess it's a case of try to do one 6 rep exercise anaerobically and rest for several minutes before continuing?
How do you cope with exercise and eating?
Damn it's horrible. Years of eating well and properly and suddenly I'm buying all this crap CHD-tastic food. I'm really struggling to make a fulfilling meal though, with largely meats and low carb/sugar fruit and veg. It's like trying to be a carnivorous rabbit or something.
But the hardest bit of all is trying to get around in daily life without my HR going beyond 120bpm. I tried cycling to a clients today with a HR monitor on and damn, I had to dawdle. The slightest hill meant getting off and walking. And even walking up a hill is like 110bpm+...
After the cycle I did my usual thing and bolted up 2 flights of stairs up to my bedroom. Mistake. 140bpm+ in an instant.
It's amazing how your HR goes up without you even noticing. I know on some cycle rides I'll like hit 190bpm on a hiillclimb but I'm only "out of breath" rather than killing myself.
When I get back to gym'ing it (currently on 2 weeks off) I know DL, BP, BOR, Squatting, even in a 6 rep range is going to send my HR way over the 120bpm target. I guess it's a case of try to do one 6 rep exercise anaerobically and rest for several minutes before continuing?
How do you cope with exercise and eating?
I'm at 12% BF and have been for a few of years without feeling the need to shift it (at the expense of quitting Red wine, Sherry, Port and John Smiths...), but now I have. Just seeing if I can get to <10% BF by xmas.
The 120bpm HR thing is to avoid metabolising muscle instead of fat. From what I have read/what I understand, lipolysis (fat) is slower than gluconeogenesis (muscle, amongst other things!) for resynthesizing ATP. The 120bpm HR is a roundabout figure of ATP demand during long/hard CV activity to avoid switching from digesting fat to digesting muscle.
IIRC it's a general recommendation to stay under the 120bpm HR threshold at all times, just in case your blood sugars are low or running out when doing a ketogenic diet. Or is this now doctrine as it seems it?
I don't want to look like Mo Farah by xmas!
The 120bpm HR thing is to avoid metabolising muscle instead of fat. From what I have read/what I understand, lipolysis (fat) is slower than gluconeogenesis (muscle, amongst other things!) for resynthesizing ATP. The 120bpm HR is a roundabout figure of ATP demand during long/hard CV activity to avoid switching from digesting fat to digesting muscle.
IIRC it's a general recommendation to stay under the 120bpm HR threshold at all times, just in case your blood sugars are low or running out when doing a ketogenic diet. Or is this now doctrine as it seems it?
I don't want to look like Mo Farah by xmas!
Why are you doing it? Is it a medical reason?
OK just read second OP post to get to 10%
Seems bit pointless to me, diets like this just scream fad , plus I would worry anything lost will be put back on as it only viable for a short term period.
If you wanted to get to 10% i'd make medium - long term changes, such as cut booze as a lifestyle change, rather than a short term "shock" diet.
I'm the same and about 12% fat, would be nice to get offof the little bit on my stomach, but doing so would mean cutting out booze on weekends, which I enjoy. Plus when I did go down to 10% though intense cycle training (and no booze) I hated it, I looked "ill" couldn't get clothes to fit, its like my body wants a little fat on it.
Each to their own, just my 10ps worth! Good luck OP though!
OK just read second OP post to get to 10%
Seems bit pointless to me, diets like this just scream fad , plus I would worry anything lost will be put back on as it only viable for a short term period.
If you wanted to get to 10% i'd make medium - long term changes, such as cut booze as a lifestyle change, rather than a short term "shock" diet.
I'm the same and about 12% fat, would be nice to get offof the little bit on my stomach, but doing so would mean cutting out booze on weekends, which I enjoy. Plus when I did go down to 10% though intense cycle training (and no booze) I hated it, I looked "ill" couldn't get clothes to fit, its like my body wants a little fat on it.
Each to their own, just my 10ps worth! Good luck OP though!
Edited by TwistingMyMelon on Thursday 17th October 09:47
I follow the keto diet. As I am glucose intolerant, the lack of insulin spikes are wonderful and for me at least, I enjoy the diet but do struggle to find things to eat that are quick!
I eat lots of broccoli (3 times a day) to fill the plate up. Protein sources are mainly beef, eggs and some bacon (all yummy stuff) and for me it works well, but it really depends on the individual.
Chris
I eat lots of broccoli (3 times a day) to fill the plate up. Protein sources are mainly beef, eggs and some bacon (all yummy stuff) and for me it works well, but it really depends on the individual.
Chris
^ yeah that I'm ok with, but the food selection is really limited. The latest problem I have, after living so long on a healthy diet, is seeing my plate swimming in fat after I've eaten my meal. Makes me want to retch. The diet says eat fat, which I take to mean clean your plate. No chance!
mu0n said:
Keto to get to 10%? Seems a bit extreme!
Penny for your thoughts?mattikake said:
^ yeah that I'm ok with, but the food selection is really limited. The latest problem I have, after living so long on a healthy diet, is seeing my plate swimming in fat after I've eaten my meal. Makes me want to retch. The diet says eat fat, which I take to mean clean your plate. No chance!
Mop it up with some nice crusty bead... 
Here Ketogenic diets are used for seizure like disorders, and have good results BUT for the first week are done strictly as an inpatient at a hospital. Its a very extreme diet that we seriously looked into for our daughter to reduce medication. After meeting numerous specialists at a conference here the decision was made not to, as one of her pleasures is food, 2 children at her school do this diet very successfully and have good results, but are peg fed. The oils are very hard to take orally.
Please note that the reason for hospitalization and repeated medical checkups are due to the side effects on the bowel and suchlike.
Please note that the reason for hospitalization and repeated medical checkups are due to the side effects on the bowel and suchlike.
mattikake said:
mu0n said:
Keto to get to 10%? Seems a bit extreme!
Penny for your thoughts?Really worth the low energy, giving up foods you enjoy and what not to just drop a couple of % bf? I'm sure you could lose that few percent from changing your training or just reducing your calories at the moment.
Only my opinion.
I did a keto diet last summer. I did it for about three months and went from 22% body fat to 14%. I lost muscle as well as fat and would never do it again.
On my last cut I just did low carb (30-50g) over four months and it was a lot more effective and I hardly lost any muscle. 14% to 7.5%. The diet was hellishly boring but very effective.
On my last cut I just did low carb (30-50g) over four months and it was a lot more effective and I hardly lost any muscle. 14% to 7.5%. The diet was hellishly boring but very effective.
@muOn, fair enough. I've seen plenty of bodybuilders and athletes go on a keto diet to make a weight etc.
I supposed I'm not full Keto (atkins) as sometimes I have a small bowl of Allbran for breakfast (as I fear the total lack of fibre in these diets!). With the milk that is about 30g of carbs to start the day, so it's almost CKD. But that is all the carbs I'm touching.
I did just have a peperoni and cheese 3 egg omelet with a side salad that was rather nice.
deadmau5 said:
On my last cut I just did low carb (30-50g) over four months and it was a lot more effective and I hardly lost any muscle. 14% to 7.5%. The diet was hellishly boring but very effective.
Isn't 30-50g carb per day almost valid for a Keto diet anyway, as long as your fat intake is high? I supposed I'm not full Keto (atkins) as sometimes I have a small bowl of Allbran for breakfast (as I fear the total lack of fibre in these diets!). With the milk that is about 30g of carbs to start the day, so it's almost CKD. But that is all the carbs I'm touching.
I did just have a peperoni and cheese 3 egg omelet with a side salad that was rather nice.
For dropping bf I find.dropping carbs massively effective for me. I regularly do it and have been for a few years and now not quite as strict as I was at the start. For me I do no sugar, rice, potatoes etc but don't worry about milk in coffee like I used to; probably results in around 30g net carbs per day.
I find it pretty easy to have nice meals, usually consisting of some meat (chicken, steak, pork) alongside either veggies, salad or an omelette. It's not what I'm eating that's the problem for me, it's the cravings for crisps and chocolate!
Also dispute the post above about workouts when depleted, day 3 and 4 after stopping carbs are rough and lethargic but for me.after that I feel great and my workouts (usually heavy low rep sets) are excellent.
I've never made 10%, about 13 being my lowest, but that's not the diets fault, that's me stopping as I get fed up and just want to put mass.on again to look / feel bigger. Stick at it though and a 2% drop in a couple of months should be very achievable, worth some light morning fasted cardio maybe? Ps the thing about hr is probably true but imo not worth stressing about too.much, keep protein intake high, lift heavy to give your body a reason to keep muscle and you'll be fine!
I find it pretty easy to have nice meals, usually consisting of some meat (chicken, steak, pork) alongside either veggies, salad or an omelette. It's not what I'm eating that's the problem for me, it's the cravings for crisps and chocolate!
Also dispute the post above about workouts when depleted, day 3 and 4 after stopping carbs are rough and lethargic but for me.after that I feel great and my workouts (usually heavy low rep sets) are excellent.
I've never made 10%, about 13 being my lowest, but that's not the diets fault, that's me stopping as I get fed up and just want to put mass.on again to look / feel bigger. Stick at it though and a 2% drop in a couple of months should be very achievable, worth some light morning fasted cardio maybe? Ps the thing about hr is probably true but imo not worth stressing about too.much, keep protein intake high, lift heavy to give your body a reason to keep muscle and you'll be fine!
mattikake said:
@muOn, fair enough. I've seen plenty of bodybuilders and athletes go on a keto diet to make a weight etc.
I supposed I'm not full Keto (atkins) as sometimes I have a small bowl of Allbran for breakfast (as I fear the total lack of fibre in these diets!). With the milk that is about 30g of carbs to start the day, so it's almost CKD. But that is all the carbs I'm touching.
I did just have a peperoni and cheese 3 egg omelet with a side salad that was rather nice.
I'm pursuing a keto regime at present, having first done it about 25 years ago when Dave Prowse (whose brother ran a gym that I used) was promoting a keto diet as "The Dave Prowse Diet". deadmau5 said:
On my last cut I just did low carb (30-50g) over four months and it was a lot more effective and I hardly lost any muscle. 14% to 7.5%. The diet was hellishly boring but very effective.
Isn't 30-50g carb per day almost valid for a Keto diet anyway, as long as your fat intake is high? I supposed I'm not full Keto (atkins) as sometimes I have a small bowl of Allbran for breakfast (as I fear the total lack of fibre in these diets!). With the milk that is about 30g of carbs to start the day, so it's almost CKD. But that is all the carbs I'm touching.
I did just have a peperoni and cheese 3 egg omelet with a side salad that was rather nice.
Personally I find it easier to do than other programs because of the steady blood sugar levels - I don't feel like murdering someone an hour before lunch. It also makes training fasted easier, though I am weaker. Endurance work is easier though.
The early "Atkins flu" symptoms wear off after about 4 days and it leaves me feeling well-balanced and relaxed.
The positives are:
It sheds weight effectively (though the first week's massive drop is water loss).
It's fairly easy to pursue.
You can drink alcohol without weight gain.
It's easy to check when you're doing it right (Ketostix)
The negatives:
Dehydration. It's necessary to drink massive quantities of water to stay hydrated (and then pee massively too)
You can't just cheat a bit. You're either doing it or you're not.
It can be expensive.
The bottom line is I find it easier to keep BF down on a keto diet than any other diet I've tried.
In terms of fibre - after the first week it isn't an issue, but when required Fibragel provides the solution.
So into week 2.
I had a very spaced-out but strangely happy walk to get a curry. Must be at the euphoria phase. It was for a mixed grill which is just meat and salad. Had to resist getting some pops for the first time in my life... That took concentration.
Yeah I thought about adding flaxseed for all it's benefits and fibre but wasn't too sure about how to use it. I guess when your food options are so limited, what the hell? The flaxseed bread is an ace idea. So I bought some today after a very lethargic knackered-feeling walk to Tesco (relatively speaking at least, I'm sure there's many unfit people who feel this way all the time, but I'd usually bound all 6km there and back like Tigger) and a pestle and mortar to grind it up with. I'll have to find out how that goes in my homemade curries and chillis.
While I was at it though I stumbled on sesame seeds. These look even better. Even less non-fibrous carbs, more protein, still high in poly and mono-unstaturated fats and still a good portion of fibre. Who'd have thought the throwaway stuff on a McD's bun could be so good for you? No Omega-3 present though like flaxseed but the flaxseed Omega-3 in only ALA, not EPA or DHA as found in oily fish.
I can't see my fat levels dropping, Supra-illiac pinch is still 7mm, but I should be back on the weights this week. I feel like starting on a burn set I think, before building it up to 21s, then 6RM, but a burn set is going to send me way over 120bpm per exercise.
Expecting bugger all strength whatever I do.
I had a very spaced-out but strangely happy walk to get a curry. Must be at the euphoria phase. It was for a mixed grill which is just meat and salad. Had to resist getting some pops for the first time in my life... That took concentration.
Yeah I thought about adding flaxseed for all it's benefits and fibre but wasn't too sure about how to use it. I guess when your food options are so limited, what the hell? The flaxseed bread is an ace idea. So I bought some today after a very lethargic knackered-feeling walk to Tesco (relatively speaking at least, I'm sure there's many unfit people who feel this way all the time, but I'd usually bound all 6km there and back like Tigger) and a pestle and mortar to grind it up with. I'll have to find out how that goes in my homemade curries and chillis.
While I was at it though I stumbled on sesame seeds. These look even better. Even less non-fibrous carbs, more protein, still high in poly and mono-unstaturated fats and still a good portion of fibre. Who'd have thought the throwaway stuff on a McD's bun could be so good for you? No Omega-3 present though like flaxseed but the flaxseed Omega-3 in only ALA, not EPA or DHA as found in oily fish.
I can't see my fat levels dropping, Supra-illiac pinch is still 7mm, but I should be back on the weights this week. I feel like starting on a burn set I think, before building it up to 21s, then 6RM, but a burn set is going to send me way over 120bpm per exercise.
Expecting bugger all strength whatever I do.
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