Back Pain, Running Out Of Options
Discussion
Hi
I was wondering if anyone could help. Unfortunately I feel that I would get more knowledge on a forum (hopefully) than a doc, chiro, physio, osteo….you get the jist.
I have been suffering from back pain for a few years now and it usually comes and goes but this time it seems to want to stay. I sit at a desk all day which doesn’t help but when I stand for long periods my back pain is relieved but then I can get aches in my legs.
Anyway its constantly on my mind. I take painkillers, stretch, foam roll and use a tennis ball as I have a knot in my back that I cant seem to shift.
I have been to a chiro in the past and she found it difficult putting pressure on the area with her elbow for example. Because the muscle was raised, her elbow would just slip off it.
To be fair I haven’t experimented with the foam roller and tennis ball for all that long but what I’m finding is that I get short term relief rather than long term. I feel great after massaging but then I’m back to square one as soon as I sit back in my chair.
My questions are:
Has anyone had any luck with completely ridding themselves of back pain through self massage?
Why do I have a raised muscle, is this whats knows as a knot, spasm or trigger point? Why wont it just go? Nobody can tell me why I have this except they massage my back and say “what have you done to your poor back?” my back is me! Im the one in pain!.
do I need to give the self massage a chance or am i just going to constantly have short term relief?
what i have found it that on the same side of my back pain, btw its only 1 sided, i also have a tight hamstring. i have read that this can be caused from prolonged sitting. I do try and get up often but due to my job its all hands on deck at my computer.
Please help as ill be honest im getting fed up with the pain and im sick of being fobbed off with strong painkillers etc and simply cant afford the private physio route again, I cant afford to chance it helping.
I was wondering if anyone could help. Unfortunately I feel that I would get more knowledge on a forum (hopefully) than a doc, chiro, physio, osteo….you get the jist.
I have been suffering from back pain for a few years now and it usually comes and goes but this time it seems to want to stay. I sit at a desk all day which doesn’t help but when I stand for long periods my back pain is relieved but then I can get aches in my legs.
Anyway its constantly on my mind. I take painkillers, stretch, foam roll and use a tennis ball as I have a knot in my back that I cant seem to shift.
I have been to a chiro in the past and she found it difficult putting pressure on the area with her elbow for example. Because the muscle was raised, her elbow would just slip off it.
To be fair I haven’t experimented with the foam roller and tennis ball for all that long but what I’m finding is that I get short term relief rather than long term. I feel great after massaging but then I’m back to square one as soon as I sit back in my chair.
My questions are:
Has anyone had any luck with completely ridding themselves of back pain through self massage?
Why do I have a raised muscle, is this whats knows as a knot, spasm or trigger point? Why wont it just go? Nobody can tell me why I have this except they massage my back and say “what have you done to your poor back?” my back is me! Im the one in pain!.
do I need to give the self massage a chance or am i just going to constantly have short term relief?
what i have found it that on the same side of my back pain, btw its only 1 sided, i also have a tight hamstring. i have read that this can be caused from prolonged sitting. I do try and get up often but due to my job its all hands on deck at my computer.
Please help as ill be honest im getting fed up with the pain and im sick of being fobbed off with strong painkillers etc and simply cant afford the private physio route again, I cant afford to chance it helping.
I can't say anything about the raised bit of your back, maybe an MRI scan for that if no one has the answer.
In terms of relief do you do any exercise? How strong are your core muscles?
I used to suffer from a bad back and I've found that yoga has helped massively. Like you I had tight hamstrings (both legs) and very limited flexibility through my back and core. Now 7 weeks into yoga once a week I can bend further than I have been able to since I was younger. And my back doesn't hurt sat at work anymore. I also workout 4/5 times a week to strengthen all my muscles as the stronger your core/legs are the less pressure on your back.
Also look at your posture especially when sitting, getting a work station assessment done, do you have an ergonomic chair?
In terms of relief do you do any exercise? How strong are your core muscles?
I used to suffer from a bad back and I've found that yoga has helped massively. Like you I had tight hamstrings (both legs) and very limited flexibility through my back and core. Now 7 weeks into yoga once a week I can bend further than I have been able to since I was younger. And my back doesn't hurt sat at work anymore. I also workout 4/5 times a week to strengthen all my muscles as the stronger your core/legs are the less pressure on your back.
Also look at your posture especially when sitting, getting a work station assessment done, do you have an ergonomic chair?
Edited by Anonamoose on Tuesday 25th February 13:34
I used to suffer from severe backache, basically locked up near the base. Saw a sports physio, rugby player he was, and he managed to loosen it by quite forcibly twisting my frame. Had to go back weekly for 5 or 6 visits for this to be repeated. Now when I get up in the morning I stretch and all is ok and has been for over 10 years.
You need to go to your GP, and insist, absolutely insist on an X-ray or mri scan.
Be very careful about advice to exercise or get bent back into shape by a Chiro or similar until you actually have a Diagnosis.
Backs are notorious for referred pain, so the muscle problem you describe could be caused by a much lower joint problem or lack of hip alignment for example.
Do you sit on your wallet all day in the office chair ?
I suffered for about three years, and eventually a friends mum (who was a crystal healer) sat me down and said
"go to your GP, don't take no for an answer, get an x-ray"
Only then did I get a proper diagnosis that enabled me to be treated properly. Then I used a chiro, who was excellent, and if you are near southwest london I would be happy to recommend him to you.
Be very careful about advice to exercise or get bent back into shape by a Chiro or similar until you actually have a Diagnosis.
Backs are notorious for referred pain, so the muscle problem you describe could be caused by a much lower joint problem or lack of hip alignment for example.
Do you sit on your wallet all day in the office chair ?
I suffered for about three years, and eventually a friends mum (who was a crystal healer) sat me down and said
"go to your GP, don't take no for an answer, get an x-ray"
Only then did I get a proper diagnosis that enabled me to be treated properly. Then I used a chiro, who was excellent, and if you are near southwest london I would be happy to recommend him to you.
Anonamoose said:
I can't say anything about the raised bit of your back, maybe an MRI scan for that if no one has the answer.
In terms of relief do you do any exercise? How strong are your core muscles?
I used to suffer from a bad back and I've found that yoga has helped massively. Like you I had tight hamstrings (both legs) and very limited flexibility through my back and core. Now 7 weeks into yoga once a week I can bend further than I have been able to since I was younger. And my back doesn't hurt sat at work anymore. I also workout 4/5 times a week to strengthen all my muscles as the stronger your core/legs are the less pressure on your back.
Also look at your posture especially when sitting, getting a work station assessment done, do you have an ergonomic chair?
im currently doing more for my core muscles to strengthen them. Hopefully this will shif what i think is a muscle spasm maybe because the right sid of my back muscles are struggling to support my spine etc. The only thing I havent tried is Yoga and Pilates. Yoga i think i may struggle with as I know you do alot of sitting cross legged and i really struggle sitting without supporting my back. ive done a bit of pilates on a workout DVD but have sort of given up with this as it's a little boring. In terms of relief do you do any exercise? How strong are your core muscles?
I used to suffer from a bad back and I've found that yoga has helped massively. Like you I had tight hamstrings (both legs) and very limited flexibility through my back and core. Now 7 weeks into yoga once a week I can bend further than I have been able to since I was younger. And my back doesn't hurt sat at work anymore. I also workout 4/5 times a week to strengthen all my muscles as the stronger your core/legs are the less pressure on your back.
Also look at your posture especially when sitting, getting a work station assessment done, do you have an ergonomic chair?
Edited by Anonamoose on Tuesday 25th February 13:34
Think i'll just have to focus on strengthening my muscles as I havent done an awful lot of lower back strengthening. what would be really useful is to have a hyperextension bench in my gym as we dont have one so only really doing body strengthening on the mats and light deadlifts, good morning workouts etc.
I also find my hamstrings can be loosened after quite uncomfortable stretching but soon tighten again as soon as im sat for long periods of time. Bit of a nightmare but have to try to stay positive.
I have similar sounding back issues to you and found a combination of exercise and some of the routines in the book 'help your own back' by Robert McKenzie help when I have an episode of pain.
But basically it boils down to exercise, if I stop for a week or two I get a noticeable increase in the frequency and level of pain. My pain is always lower right hand side and occasionally a knot in my left shoulder as well.
But basically it boils down to exercise, if I stop for a week or two I get a noticeable increase in the frequency and level of pain. My pain is always lower right hand side and occasionally a knot in my left shoulder as well.
Had 2 ruptured discs (they don't slip!) low back in 2006 ish. Avoided operation although surgeon kept the door open should I not be able to tolerate the pain. Took a long, long time but I'm glad I didn't have any op. Physio said I had the tightest hamstrings she had ever encountered! I still do exercise for them but I think they'll always be tight.
Combination of exercise and rest in equal measure did it for me but as said it's a long haul. If you have a bulge that's probably a disc ruptured, even if it's small, all it has to do is touch one of the surrounding nerves and 'bang' you'll have pain. Leg pain might not be hamstrings but sciatica (sciatic nerve is the largest nerve in the body and travels down the leg to foot).
I remember it all being so debilitating. ie bloody awful. Will it ever go away? I still have months and months of notes that I wrote down. Hardly believable now how long I put up with it for. The number of painkillers I took should have finished me!
What you need is what i did. Find out how your back 'really' works. One book has it all, Sarah Key's Back Sufferers' Bible. She treat(ed) Prince Charles (not sure if that is good or bad?), however, this book was a bloody godsend for me, and part of the reason I avoided surgery.
I still have it close to me even now should I get the now rare but very bad spasm or bad twinge.
And it's cheaper now. At the time it was probably the best 10 quid I have spent in my life.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarah-Keys-Back-Sufferers-...
PS
Not sure why Play.com etc come up as links. Get one (if you decide to) on Amazon, cheaper. get copy with 'blue' cover.
And no, i have no connection whatsoever with the book or author. It really IS good!
Combination of exercise and rest in equal measure did it for me but as said it's a long haul. If you have a bulge that's probably a disc ruptured, even if it's small, all it has to do is touch one of the surrounding nerves and 'bang' you'll have pain. Leg pain might not be hamstrings but sciatica (sciatic nerve is the largest nerve in the body and travels down the leg to foot).
I remember it all being so debilitating. ie bloody awful. Will it ever go away? I still have months and months of notes that I wrote down. Hardly believable now how long I put up with it for. The number of painkillers I took should have finished me!
What you need is what i did. Find out how your back 'really' works. One book has it all, Sarah Key's Back Sufferers' Bible. She treat(ed) Prince Charles (not sure if that is good or bad?), however, this book was a bloody godsend for me, and part of the reason I avoided surgery.
I still have it close to me even now should I get the now rare but very bad spasm or bad twinge.
And it's cheaper now. At the time it was probably the best 10 quid I have spent in my life.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sarah-Keys-Back-Sufferers-...
PS
Not sure why Play.com etc come up as links. Get one (if you decide to) on Amazon, cheaper. get copy with 'blue' cover.
And no, i have no connection whatsoever with the book or author. It really IS good!
Edited by dandarez on Thursday 27th February 23:27
It will need better analysis than you would get on a forum but...
Sounds like classic muscle atrophy, imbalance and tightness which is causing all manner of postural problems. These can cause anything from muscle aches to debilitating bed-ridden immobility and a slow boring death, depending on how far you are gone in a condition I call deskbounditis.
We are not designed to sit. We are designed to lay, stand and move.
You need your employer to look here: http://www.mptp.info/corporate/fixdeskposture.html
Welcome to a huge club.
Rather than "doesn't help" think; "this is the cause" with such probability it's almost a certainty.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Sounds like classic muscle atrophy, imbalance and tightness which is causing all manner of postural problems. These can cause anything from muscle aches to debilitating bed-ridden immobility and a slow boring death, depending on how far you are gone in a condition I call deskbounditis.
We are not designed to sit. We are designed to lay, stand and move.
You need your employer to look here: http://www.mptp.info/corporate/fixdeskposture.html
Callismichael said:
I have been suffering from back pain for a few years now and it usually comes and goes but this time it seems to want to stay.
Welcome to a huge club.
Callismichael said:
I sit at a desk all day which doesn’t help...
Rather than "doesn't help" think; "this is the cause" with such probability it's almost a certainty.
Callismichael said:
but when I stand for long periods my back pain is relieved but then I can get aches in my legs.
= Weak back and weak legs. Temporary relief is gained here due to a standing posture for which your body is designed.Callismichael said:
Anyway its constantly on my mind. I take painkillers,
100% bad idea. These will hide the problem and alleviate symptoms allowing you to let it get worse. Callismichael said:
stretch,
Good. For how long? Are you aiming to increase your flexibility?Callismichael said:
foam roll and use a tennis ball as I have a knot in my back that I cant seem to shift.
But knotting needs massage (which you are doing here), exercise (muscle contraction) and stretching (muscle relaxation) for improved mobility.Callismichael said:
To be fair I haven’t experimented with the foam roller and tennis ball for all that long but what I’m finding is that I get short term relief rather than long term. I feel great after massaging but then I’m back to square one as soon as I sit back in my chair...
Like most, you already know what the cause is and like most, you're hoping it isn't the case and like most, you're hoping it will go away. It won't. It will take persistent and consistent hard work, but it's far better than the alternative...Callismichael said:
Has anyone had any luck with completely ridding themselves of back pain through self massage?
Yes. Myself and about 40 clients so far at a quick count.Callismichael said:
Why do I have a raised muscle, is this whats knows as a knot, spasm or trigger point? Why wont it just go? Nobody can tell me why I have this except they massage my back and say “what have you done to your poor back?” my back is me! Im the one in pain!.
Poor posture probably. It's most likely that your muscles are so badly imbalanced (to cause pain) that they are also badly out of alignment. Worse, they could be so out of alignment they are starting to distort your skeletal form and even the shape and function of your joints.Callismichael said:
do I need to give the self massage a chance or am i just going to constantly have short term relief?
No. Callismichael said:
what i have found it that on the same side of my back pain, btw its only 1 sided, i also have a tight hamstring. i have read that this can be caused from prolonged sitting.
Yes sitting is causing both.Callismichael said:
I do try and get up often but due to my job its all hands on deck at my computer.
That will never be enough. Not by a long long way.Callismichael said:
Please help as ill be honest im getting fed up with the pain and im sick of being fobbed off with strong painkillers etc and simply cant afford the private physio route again, I cant afford to chance it helping.
All been very brief as I'm a busy man fixing loads of deskbounditis sufferers so read here, it won't take long:-http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
mattikake said:
All been very brief as I'm a busy man fixing loads of deskbounditis sufferers so read here, it won't take long:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thank you for your really detailed post it's very useful and thanks to others.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I'll explain abit more about me and my current lifestyle and findings. I sit at a desk all day and when I finish work I go to the gym most nights to do weights. This has been for the past 2 years. I was focusing a lot on muscle groups but the muscle groups I was neglecting were my lower back. Higher back and Lars I was doing things for but was missing my lower back a lot without realising. No that me back pain has gotten worse I have been introducing hyper extensions and dead lifts etc. as well as avoiding sit-ups (due to aggravating the spine) but doing crunches and plan regularly.
I was doing Muay Thai for a while and really enjoyed it but gave given this a break for a bit as I was finding some things were aggravating my back. I struggle a little with cardio but have start sped going for walks at lunch times and not doing high impact cardio at the gym like the treadmill and doing the cross trainer for example. Not because I'm unfit, because I have flat feet and I think this aggravates things like my back.
I also enjoy bike rides but haven't been for while as this was aggravating my back, probably due to bad posture while seated.
I drink lots of water throughout the day. I'm not overweight.
I've been foam rolling for a few months now but only in the last few weeks have I really focused on doing it every evening and try to stretch every time is go to the gym. I have a normal foam roller, 'the grid' foam roller and a lacrosse ball, and a homedics shihatsu cushion and I've been doing trigger point massage. I try to go for massages when I have money but not had great experiences with some deep tissue massage as they haven't been deep enough.
When I find what I think is a trigger point, it feels like a nerve pain but isn't excruciating, is this associated with the sciatic nerve or is this my body saying stay there as this is a trigger point? I don't even know if trigger points are the issue. It could be that I have a tight hamstring and tilting my pelvis so I've read which can cause backpain?
Now I'm focusing on working on strengthening my lower back, stretching and self massage and hopefully I will stumble across a cure for back pain or even just make my back pain more bearable.
Edited by Callismichael on Friday 28th February 22:27
Just as a precaution and it is a bit of a worst case scenario but get your prostate checked, a man I sat next to at work had recurring back pain and after numerous visits to the doctor and physios etc. they checked and it was unfortunately too late, he was given a 6 months. A bit of a shock to everyone not least of all him, had they checked earlier they'd have caught it. As I say it is worst case and you have a visible muscular lump but better safe than sorry.
I'm currently suffering for the first time in my life, I have so many pills I rattle.
Anyhow sitting down makes it a million times worse so I've taken to walking around every 30 minutes and I plan on doing core exercises as soon as I can.
The constant cramping was making my life hell so I have diazepam for that and tramadol which I want to stop taking as soon as I can, I've found not moving is causing more problems so I'm stretching and doing what movements I can to keep myself mobile.
It's helping more than any pills.
Anyhow sitting down makes it a million times worse so I've taken to walking around every 30 minutes and I plan on doing core exercises as soon as I can.
The constant cramping was making my life hell so I have diazepam for that and tramadol which I want to stop taking as soon as I can, I've found not moving is causing more problems so I'm stretching and doing what movements I can to keep myself mobile.
It's helping more than any pills.
BlackVanDyke said:
Have you changed your chair, and have you checked that you're working at the right height etc?
Doubt it could cure anything but it might help a lot, and cost relatively little.
If you work for a big company, occupational health might be able to help.
Yes I've had a dse assessment and this has helped a little. I've had an ergonomic chair in the past and it didn't help so let my colleague have it. What they did get me was a mesh lumbar support and this has made things a little more comfortable. I can recommend one of these as they're only cheap. It's just a little more softer on the lumbar of your back. It's just those hip flexors, glutes an my back that starts to get irritated the longer I sit. Not just at work, I'm at home getting uncomfortable now say on a recliner chair. Time to lie on the rug I think.Doubt it could cure anything but it might help a lot, and cost relatively little.
If you work for a big company, occupational health might be able to help.
Callismichael said:
Yes I've had a dse assessment and this has helped a little. I've had an ergonomic chair in the past and it didn't help so let my colleague have it. What they did get me was a mesh lumbar support and this has made things a little more comfortable. I can recommend one of these as they're only cheap. It's just a little more softer on the lumbar of your back. It's just those hip flexors, glutes an my back that starts to get irritated the longer I sit. Not just at work, I'm at home getting uncomfortable now say on a recliner chair. Time to lie on the rug I think.
Have you tried alternating your work chair with one of those kneeler chairs that take some of the pressure off your back? That and can you just get up and walk around the office for 5 mins every hour? Set an alarm and also walk at lunchtime?
bint said:
Have you tried alternating your work chair with one of those kneeler chairs that take some of the pressure off your back?
That and can you just get up and walk around the office for 5 mins every hour? Set an alarm and also walk at lunchtime?
I think that i would struggle with a kneeler chair due to my posture not being the best. I do however get up as much as I can and I get an hour for lunch meaning that I can go for a decent stroll at lunch time. I can sometimes completely alleviate my back pain from lunchtime walking but as soon as i sit it slowly creeps back. That and can you just get up and walk around the office for 5 mins every hour? Set an alarm and also walk at lunchtime?
I suppose I should count my luck stars that i dont have pain 24/7 which hopefully leads me to believe that it's nothing serious but who knows? the doc doesnt and I only know so much from going on the internet etc. Major minefield.
Callismichael said:
Thank you for your really detailed post it's very useful and thanks to others.
No probs. Act on it, it's the truth.Callismichael said:
I'll explain abit more about me and my current lifestyle and findings. I sit at a desk all day and when I finish work I go to the gym most nights to do weights. This has been for the past 2 years.
Going to the gym for 1 hour can never compete with 8 hours of hard sitting...Callismichael said:
I was focusing a lot on muscle groups but the muscle groups I was neglecting were my lower back.
Don't then. Your lumbar spine/erector spinae group is weak. You need to hit them and hit them hard. Try kettlebell swings with the heaviest weight you can lift (upwards of 25Kg at a guess, yes heavy, really really heavy)Callismichael said:
... as well as avoiding sit-ups (due to aggravating the spine) but doing crunches and plan regularly.
Your problem is your hip flexors. These are activated heavily when doing situps. (good) crunches don't. Loads of sitting have left your hip flexors tight, short and imobile. They are pulling on your lumbar spine like ropes at a lateral anterior angle, not the vertical angle your spine is designed. It's literally pulling your spine apart, vertebrae by vertebrae. Ignore it and you will slip a disc. Then you will understand what pain is really all about...Callismichael said:
... because I have flat feet and I think this aggravates things like my back.
Flat feet eliminate 2 critical natural springs your body has specifically for running; the arch of your foot and your calf/achilles tendon. Run on your toes instead. This uses both. This is how we are designed to run - barefoot running sorts all this out automatically.Callismichael said:
I also enjoy bike rides but haven't been for while as this was aggravating my back, probably due to bad posture while seated.
Biking is almost as bad as sitting. You are allowing your hip flexors to stay flexed, meaning they tighten and get shorter (although not as bad as sitting itself as it still involves the most important thing of all; movement).Callismichael said:
I've been foam rolling for a few months now but only in the last few weeks have I really focused on doing it every evening
Unless used right, these are largely irrelevant.Callismichael said:
and try to stretch every time is go to the gym. I have a normal foam roller, 'the grid' foam roller and a lacrosse ball, and a homedics shihatsu cushion and I've been doing trigger point massage. I try to go for massages when I have money but not had great experiences with some deep tissue massage as they haven't been deep enough.
In a nutshell; all mass-media BS. Forget them all.Callismichael said:
When I find what I think is a trigger point, it feels like a nerve pain but isn't excruciating, is this associated with the sciatic nerve or is this my body saying stay there as this is a trigger point?
Sciatica probably. Your vertebrae are being pulled out of position enough by your hip flexors that they are compressing nerves. The sciatic nerve is usually the first to suffer...Callismichael said:
I don't even know if trigger points are the issue.
No. They are a symptom.Callismichael said:
It could be that I have a tight hamstring and tilting my pelvis so I've read which can cause backpain?
Yes they are one and the same thing - bad posture from too much religious sitting. Callismichael said:
Now I'm focusing on working on strengthening my lower back, stretching and self massage and hopefully I will stumble across a cure for back pain or even just make my back pain more bearable.
Why stumble when there are people here who already know all the fixes?In short you need to "un-sit". This means doing the opposite of the damage sitting has caused. You need to lengthen short muscles, loosen tight muscles, strengthen weak muscles and basically man-the-f
k-up and get on with it. No amount of posting will make any difference. Get active. Get going. Stretch hip flexors, hamstrings, calves, abs for 10 minutes a day, when you get up, when at work, when you go to bed. Strengthen back, glutes at the gym, hit them as hard as you can. Stop hoping there is some miracle cure. There isn't. There is only mass-media delusion, capitalist BS, GP f
kwitism, and corporate disinterest.When you stretch your hamstrings, is one hamstring tighter than the other? ie, tight hamstring on the same side as the pain in your back.
If so, stretch your hamstrings regularly with a target. Your head on your knees with your legs straight or anything that you can be sure your hamstrings are lengthening over time.
If so, stretch your hamstrings regularly with a target. Your head on your knees with your legs straight or anything that you can be sure your hamstrings are lengthening over time.
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