Gym: talk to me about squats

[stargazer30]

Am 38, started doing Gym last October, first real exercise in my life. I started Strong lifts about 2 weeks ago but I am having lower back problems, especially with the squats.

My max squat was 65kg starting SL. I started low at 40kg but I think I've ramped the weight up too quick. Last Wednesday at 55kg my back felt a bit funny during the 3rd set. The next day I could not stand properly. So I rested up until Sunday, was still a bit stiff but walking okay, so back to gym and managed to squat 57.5kg. No pain as such until the next day and same thing, lower back stiff, sore, can't walk properly.

I've re-read the squat chapter in starting strength, practice against a vertical line on the wall with a fake bar (broom handle! lol) and have figured out;
I can't/don't use the low bar position, it just feels wrong on my wrists shoulders and basically unsafe like the bar is going to come down my back and break my arms.
My form has been slightly off, I'm coming forward a bit too much on my knees at the bottom of the squat. I need to push my hips back starting the movement. I think might have overloaded my back a bit.

The pain I'm getting is a muscle sorness/pulled muscle type pain. I want to keep up the SL program as its working, but I'm worried I will really injure my back if I do. Any advice from the gym veterans on here? Should I quit them for a while, de load the weight?

When I first started the Gym last year I had a similar pain doing deadlifts, not as bad, never stopped me standing up. That went away with time and practice. I was doing 5 sets of deadlifts though which in hindsight was pretty dumb.

Edited by stargazer30 on Monday 29th February 14:39

[MitchT]

Leave your ego in the locker room and reduce the weight. Slow controlled movement with less weight will vastly reduce your risk of injury and will actually do more for you in the long term. Back extensions also work wonders for the lower back in terms of making it less prone to pain as a result of other things.

[dave_s13]

The problem with starting something new like this at an older age is that you're much more susceptible to picking up injuries.

I'd get some coaching if I were you. Good squat form can be very difficult to develop if you have any posterior chain tightness, like I do.

[Aphex]

Whilst you get your form in order I've always found this is the best stretch for me personally if I've over done it on the deads or squats:

[Gallons Per Mile]

Sounds like your technique might be wrong - Check this link:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/detail/view/...

Start with lighter weight and get the technique bang on first or you'll hurt your back.

[willisit]

I can relate, and the old adage, it takes 1500 repetitions to "undo" a bad habit is important here. You're, thankfully, aware so you should be able to fix it. It sounds like you train alone - it might be worth bringing someone along and getting them to video you (on your phone) without any weight - or just the bar. See from multiple angles what you're doing, and then work on your form.

I've had a bad/poor back for the best part of 20 years (same age as you) and the past 2 years I've had a PT working with me on leg and back strength. I've gone from around 60kg squats, to 130kg with no pain (I weigh 70kg for reference)- it takes time; don't rush it. If 40kg is okay, stick with it. Add 2.5kg, not 25kg (you see my point!). Everything you've said about pushing your bum backwards and keeping off your toes (shins) is right, but looking up (at least eye level) will help keep your back neutral.

Also, get a box (step box or whatever your gym has) and stick it on its highest setting. Then go get some 10kg weight discs and stack them up on top - maybe 3 high. Use that to guide yourself down - it'll give you some confidence (i.e. you can sit on it!) and then remove a disc as you get stronger. It worked for me - but again, try to have someone with you as you can't, with all best intention, see everything you're doing on your own.

Keep it up!

[stargazer30]

Right I think I'll try de-loading down to 40kg again and sticking with 2.5kg increase each session.
The video link above is very much different from Mark Riptoe's squat guide which is what I based my squat on. He keeps the knees back and his back comes over more, it doesn't stay vertical at all, but he also uses the low bar position which I can't.

[Tallow]

I'd agree with the post above that it might be worth getting a trainer to do a few sessions with you to focus on technique.

Other things I'd consider would be stretching (again as mentioned above). It's pretty critical: I've found that unless I regularly stretch then my glutes get pretty tight which can then extend to my lower back (which can even make things like running uncomfortable).

One other thing that would be worth trying that hasn't been mentioned is perhaps to experiment with using front squats if you can: They have a tendency to force better technique because your centre of gravity is altered. You'll be doing it at a lower weight but it should be much easier to get a good ROM which in turn will build strength surprisingly quickly.

[didelydoo]

stargazer30 said:

Right I think I'll try de-loading down to 40kg again and sticking with 2.5kg increase each session.
The video link above is very much different from Mark Riptoe's squat guide which is what I based my squat on. He keeps the knees back and his back comes over more, it doesn't stay vertical at all, but he also uses the low bar position which I can't.

I'd not follow Riptoe's lowbar squat, unless you want to be a powerlifter, it's not worth it. Go with high bar tech, it's a natural movement, and much easier to do. It's also better, in almost every respect, unless you want to shift maximal poundage. Bar high on the traps, down and up.

[FurryExocet]

Get one of the PT'S at the gym to check your form, it may help.
I had a similar issue, ramped the weight up to quickly, my form was all over the place, I put a video up and got loads of pointers from other people.
I dropped the weight and now I squat a lot better and the weight soon goes up

[popeyewhite]

dave_s13 said:

The problem with starting something new like this at an older age is that you're much more susceptible to picking up injuries.

Could you expand on this?

[dave_s13]

popeyewhite said:

dave_s13 said:

The problem with starting something new like this at an older age is that you're much more susceptible to picking up injuries.

Could you expand on this?

Say you get to 35-40 and decide to get fit by starting running but have no history of running before this. You are much more likely to pick up an overuse injury. But say you ran a lot as a kid or in your teens/early twenties, then had a 10-15 year break then picking it back up isn't quite the shock to the system. Same with this.

A squat below parallel at the knee level puts huge forces through your pattelofemoral joint, some physio's I've spoken to say we shouldn't sqaut deep as an exercise at all as it's not a natural position for the knee. Squats need good ankle, knee, hip, lumbar, thoracic and shoulder mobility to get that ideal heel contact and straight up and down frontal plane position. Any forward deviation see's your lever arms getting longer and then you get high joint forces that put unbalanced forces through the entire chain.

That's just anecdotal evidence gained from working within the health service. Some people have no trouble at all, some people need knee replacements or are just crippled with arthritis all over their body. Your fooked if you do, fooked if you don't.

I've now learnt to not chase the big weights anymore, it's just not worth the pain. I do crossfit classes in a strength and conditioning gym in Leeds and the coaches there are great, the limiting factor is for me is hamstrings length and thoracic mobility, I get by OK but at 39 it isn't getting easier!

[popeyewhite]

Ah, thanks. I think if you use good form and, as you say, have good coaches, you'll be fine and no more likely to sustain an injury than a teenager starting a new exercise regime.

[LordGrover]

A physio said that?

Anyone without a pre-existing injury/condition should be able to squat to at least parallel - it's about the most natural movement there is.

[dave_s13]

Yep, a physio who works in an orthopaedic unit and specialises in knees. He gets them as a final step before surgery and also rehabs the post op patients.

He's specifically on about a knee flexion greater than 90 degrees - which is what you need to do to get a proper rep - and also loaded up.

Squatting down for a crap is normal as is getting up off a chair. Squating with over 100kg on your shoulders down to knee flexion past 90degrees, not so much. I still do it though.

[gareth h]

I have aggravated an old lower back injury doing squats, following advice from the great and good here, I swapped to single leg squats, obviously this puts half the load through the back and works stability more as well.
I haven't had any back problems since changing (although I steer clear of deads now).
Might be worth giving at a try.

[dave_s13]

popeyewhite said:

Ah, thanks. I think if you use good form and, as you say, have good coaches, you'll be fine and no more likely to sustain an injury than a teenager starting a new exercise regime.

Not really. When you are young your ligaments, tendons and muscles are more suited to adapting to new loads. As you get dangerously close to middle age this ability to load the tendons in a similar fashion takes it's toll. You might not have any trouble though.

You have to use caution basically, listen to your body and build up slowly.

[popeyewhite]

dave_s13 said:

Not really. When you are young your ligaments, tendons and muscles are more suited to adapting to new loads.

The basic principle of muscular adaptation to training doesn't change whatever your age. Someone in their 30s/40s should experience no difference from someone in their teens. Do you have reliable information that might show otherwise? Please share it.

[WestyCarl]

Another (different) question;
Do you have to keep you feet flat on the ground and not raise the heel's or is it acceptable to put a lift under the heels?
I've got pretty strong legs from running and cycling but at 45 have decided to add some strength training to my routine. However squats are giving me a problem due to lack of ankle mobility.

[dave_s13]

popeyewhite said:

dave_s13 said:

Not really. When you are young your ligaments, tendons and muscles are more suited to adapting to new loads.

The basic principle of muscular adaptation to training doesn't change whatever your age. Someone in their 30s/40s should experience no difference from someone in their teens. Do you have reliable information that might show otherwise? Please share it.

There's lots of published research and seminal texts that describe a slow loss of function as you get older. There is no doubt that moderate exercise slows this process and is most defeinately beneficial. There is a general rule of thumb that no exercise is bad for you, moderate is beneficial and too much is bad, I can't remember the source for that though.

It's not something I'm expert on to be honest but a quick literature search throws these up....basically as we age we lose the water content in our tendons, the nice springy bits can turn to fat and they just generally get stiffer. It's st really. There are hundreds of published papers around the subject. Is it a field you are involved in? You may well be more up to date with this stuff than I am.

Zhang, J., & Wang, J. H. -. (2015). Moderate exercise mitigates the detrimental effects of aging on tendon stem cells. PLoS One, 10(6)

Du, Y.C., Chen, Y.F., Lin, C.J., Lin, Y.C. and Chen, T., 2006, January. The application of quantitative ultrasound (QUS) on study of aging effects of achilles tendons. In Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society, 2005. IEEE-EMBS 2005. 27th Annual International Conference of the (pp. 6344-6347). IEEE.

Boesen, A.P., Dideriksen, K., Couppé, C., Magnusson, S.P., Schjerling, P., Boesen, M., Aagaard, P., Kjaer, M. & Langberg, H. 2014;2013;, "Effect of growth hormone on aging connective tissue in muscle and tendon: gene expression, morphology, and function following immobilization and rehabilitation", Journal of Applied Physiology, vol. 116, no. 2, pp. 192-203.

Karamanidis, K. & Arampatzis, A. 2005, "Mechanical and morphological properties of different muscle-tendon units in the lower extremity and running mechanics: effect of aging and physical activity", The Journal of experimental biology, vol. 208, no. Pt 20, pp. 3907-3923.