How to stop someone drinking themselves to death
Discussion
Specifically my brother - you need to know a little bit about him. A solution will not be easy to find.
He is in his late sixties, quite a bit older than me his "little Bruvver". His life history is full of ups and downs. He is currently a successful company owner with good income, employees etc in the transport sector. But his family life is shot to bits, estranged wife dead (drink), 2 kids offhand and not a good relationship with him, one other kid died at 16 due to a congenital illness. He has had a very "colourful" life at home and abroad - been banged up in some nasty holes in Exotic countries. So he has been around the block and is quite streetwise - emphasis on the street rather than wise.
The history of his drinking is that he drank a lot - I mean a lot but not every day, he would go weeks without a drink and never used to drink at home. In those days he would go out on the sauce for 3-4 days solid whilst out and come home physically wrecked, orifices bleeding etc. Now, his current partner has developed dementia very quickly and he has been caring for her until his latest descent into drink, and I am concerned that he is frequently incapable of making sure she is safe. Since he is caring for her, he is at home a lot and now drinks at home - a lot, all the time it seems - last week over a few days, he confesses to 4 litres of Bacardi, plus beer and a bottle of rum at my house on Sunday - plus beer. It is probably more. If he wants a drink and he doesn't get one, he gets quite nasty and disruptive, totally different to his sober character where he is truly one of the nicest, unselfish and caring guys on the planet. To placate his "needs" I was doing him rum and coke with the tiniest amount of rum so he got the taste, and loads of coke to try to keep him quiet.
One good thing, he does not drink and drive. He had a bit of "morning after" going on yesterday, decided he wasn't driving anywhere and instead of a cooked breakfast or even just a bit of toast, decided on the only 2 beers left in the fridge, and half a bottle of wine (which he doesn't really like) for breakfast, I needed him out of here so I could work - I drove his vehicle back to his home yesterday afternoon (80 miles each way) with my missus following to bring me home. Because of his stubbornness, he would not come with me. He decided to go and get a train from a local station and went off to meet his mates to watch Chelsea, which would have involved a load more booze of course.
He was talking to me on Sunday about what to do with his estate when he dies. It is clear from that conversation that he knows that he is drinking himself to death, and has no reason not to - he want to leave everything to me. I phoned his best mate and he confirmed that he has certain instructions to get everything to me when he dies. So he is not bulls
tting me about how little he feels his direct family is worth to him.
My late dad used to lecture him in drinking (non drinker) and others comment of course. I think my dad's death had a major impact on him 6 years ago. But he is so stubborn he will not listen to anyone about anything - when he turned up at my house on Sunday, his ankle was smashed - no idea how he did it but thinks he fell down the stairs twice on Friday. Offered him a tea or coffee and take him to hospital - he had a beer. And continued to do more beer and rum refusing to go and get his leg sorted. He gets embarrassingly drunk very quickly now.
My missus is an ex nurse, checked his ankle and it was a bad sprain with potential for a fracture as it was hot, and clear that his ability to put weight on it as he walked in did not represent a sprain alone etc. As he blatantly refused to go to hospital, she offered to treat it, so she asked him to take off his shoe and sock and put his foot into a bowl of salty water to address the swelling so she could get a better look at it and work out some kind of support. He knows best, refused all help and in the end dumped both his feet in he bowl complete with shoes and socks in his way of showing his awkwardness and "humour" as a drunk, and blatantly refused any help.
So you have an idea of how mangled he gets on booze (literally falling down drunk, loud and profane etc) how stubborn he is, how history of my dad lecturing him means that absolutely nobody can get him to see sense and just back off a bit.
I phoned him this morning to check on him, and you would not know he had a drink - walking with his missus to get a paper and buy her some lunch... which will certainly be in a place that sells booze - here we go again.
What would I like to happen? Ideally I would like him to stop drinking at home. This is the major problem. His office is home based, and it is all to easy to just reach into the fridge while working and pour a rum and coke. If he just drank while he is out, then that would massively cut his input. When he drinks, he doesn't eat anything or sleep, for example this weekend we had a BBQ a comfortable king sized bed in the spare room for him, but no... too stubborn, ate nothing and stayed in the kitchen all night. Wouldn't eat... just drink drink drink.
So with a combination of liking it, a really tough life these days with his caring for his missus and some rough history, and stubbornness like you have never seen, I am at a loss how to suggest to him that drinking at home is not a good thing given his character. He knows what he is doing and doesn't seem to care. Others do care, but he won't listen, they are "just nagging".
This post is getting too long. There is lots more to say but it will be truly TLDR.
So the psychologists of pistonheads, based on the above, how the hell do I save his life?
He is in his late sixties, quite a bit older than me his "little Bruvver". His life history is full of ups and downs. He is currently a successful company owner with good income, employees etc in the transport sector. But his family life is shot to bits, estranged wife dead (drink), 2 kids offhand and not a good relationship with him, one other kid died at 16 due to a congenital illness. He has had a very "colourful" life at home and abroad - been banged up in some nasty holes in Exotic countries. So he has been around the block and is quite streetwise - emphasis on the street rather than wise.
The history of his drinking is that he drank a lot - I mean a lot but not every day, he would go weeks without a drink and never used to drink at home. In those days he would go out on the sauce for 3-4 days solid whilst out and come home physically wrecked, orifices bleeding etc. Now, his current partner has developed dementia very quickly and he has been caring for her until his latest descent into drink, and I am concerned that he is frequently incapable of making sure she is safe. Since he is caring for her, he is at home a lot and now drinks at home - a lot, all the time it seems - last week over a few days, he confesses to 4 litres of Bacardi, plus beer and a bottle of rum at my house on Sunday - plus beer. It is probably more. If he wants a drink and he doesn't get one, he gets quite nasty and disruptive, totally different to his sober character where he is truly one of the nicest, unselfish and caring guys on the planet. To placate his "needs" I was doing him rum and coke with the tiniest amount of rum so he got the taste, and loads of coke to try to keep him quiet.
One good thing, he does not drink and drive. He had a bit of "morning after" going on yesterday, decided he wasn't driving anywhere and instead of a cooked breakfast or even just a bit of toast, decided on the only 2 beers left in the fridge, and half a bottle of wine (which he doesn't really like) for breakfast, I needed him out of here so I could work - I drove his vehicle back to his home yesterday afternoon (80 miles each way) with my missus following to bring me home. Because of his stubbornness, he would not come with me. He decided to go and get a train from a local station and went off to meet his mates to watch Chelsea, which would have involved a load more booze of course.
He was talking to me on Sunday about what to do with his estate when he dies. It is clear from that conversation that he knows that he is drinking himself to death, and has no reason not to - he want to leave everything to me. I phoned his best mate and he confirmed that he has certain instructions to get everything to me when he dies. So he is not bulls
tting me about how little he feels his direct family is worth to him.My late dad used to lecture him in drinking (non drinker) and others comment of course. I think my dad's death had a major impact on him 6 years ago. But he is so stubborn he will not listen to anyone about anything - when he turned up at my house on Sunday, his ankle was smashed - no idea how he did it but thinks he fell down the stairs twice on Friday. Offered him a tea or coffee and take him to hospital - he had a beer. And continued to do more beer and rum refusing to go and get his leg sorted. He gets embarrassingly drunk very quickly now.
My missus is an ex nurse, checked his ankle and it was a bad sprain with potential for a fracture as it was hot, and clear that his ability to put weight on it as he walked in did not represent a sprain alone etc. As he blatantly refused to go to hospital, she offered to treat it, so she asked him to take off his shoe and sock and put his foot into a bowl of salty water to address the swelling so she could get a better look at it and work out some kind of support. He knows best, refused all help and in the end dumped both his feet in he bowl complete with shoes and socks in his way of showing his awkwardness and "humour" as a drunk, and blatantly refused any help.
So you have an idea of how mangled he gets on booze (literally falling down drunk, loud and profane etc) how stubborn he is, how history of my dad lecturing him means that absolutely nobody can get him to see sense and just back off a bit.
I phoned him this morning to check on him, and you would not know he had a drink - walking with his missus to get a paper and buy her some lunch... which will certainly be in a place that sells booze - here we go again.
What would I like to happen? Ideally I would like him to stop drinking at home. This is the major problem. His office is home based, and it is all to easy to just reach into the fridge while working and pour a rum and coke. If he just drank while he is out, then that would massively cut his input. When he drinks, he doesn't eat anything or sleep, for example this weekend we had a BBQ a comfortable king sized bed in the spare room for him, but no... too stubborn, ate nothing and stayed in the kitchen all night. Wouldn't eat... just drink drink drink.
So with a combination of liking it, a really tough life these days with his caring for his missus and some rough history, and stubbornness like you have never seen, I am at a loss how to suggest to him that drinking at home is not a good thing given his character. He knows what he is doing and doesn't seem to care. Others do care, but he won't listen, they are "just nagging".
This post is getting too long. There is lots more to say but it will be truly TLDR.
So the psychologists of pistonheads, based on the above, how the hell do I save his life?
SeeFive said:
He knows what he is doing and doesn't seem to care. Others do care, but he won't listen, they are "just nagging".
Long enough, did read, but it boils down to this.Short of sneaking Antabuse into his cornflakes, he hasnt reached the low point that will make him think enough. He may not have one.
You cannot stop him drinking without his active participation. Ill thought out ploys may well backfire, and harden his resolve.
No personal experience, but you may want to look at groups like Al-Anon, who are there for the families of drinkers as much as anyone.
randlemarcus said:
SeeFive said:
He knows what he is doing and doesn't seem to care. Others do care, but he won't listen, they are "just nagging".
Long enough, did read, but it boils down to this.Short of sneaking Antabuse into his cornflakes, he hasnt reached the low point that will make him think enough. He may not have one.
You cannot stop him drinking without his active participation. Ill thought out ploys may well backfire, and harden his resolve.
No personal experience, but you may want to look at groups like Al-Anon, who are there for the families of drinkers as much as anyone.
The very short answer is you cant. Only he can.
As some one that unfortunately has first hand knowledge of this (mum dead at 42) I would warn you that alcoholism as severe as this cannot be toned down, it cannot be a weekend thing, it cannot be no drinking at home. He either stops drinking or he dies its as simple as that.
You can try and get him sectioned, I did this with my mum twice but it didn't make any difference. Unless he wants to quit (im assuming you ve asked him?) then there's nothing you can do.
Im sorry and best of luck, if you want to PM then feel free.
As some one that unfortunately has first hand knowledge of this (mum dead at 42) I would warn you that alcoholism as severe as this cannot be toned down, it cannot be a weekend thing, it cannot be no drinking at home. He either stops drinking or he dies its as simple as that.
You can try and get him sectioned, I did this with my mum twice but it didn't make any difference. Unless he wants to quit (im assuming you ve asked him?) then there's nothing you can do.
Im sorry and best of luck, if you want to PM then feel free.
Ascayman said:
The very short answer is you cant. Only he can.
As some one that unfortunately has first hand knowledge of this (mum dead at 42) I would warn you that alcoholism as severe as this cannot be toned down, it cannot be a weekend thing, it cannot be no drinking at home. He either stops drinking or he dies its as simple as that.
You can try and get him sectioned, I did this with my mum twice but it didn't make any difference. Unless he wants to quit (im assuming you ve asked him?) then there's nothing you can do.
Im sorry and best of luck, if you want to PM then feel free.
Thanks for the response. There are a couple of things. As some one that unfortunately has first hand knowledge of this (mum dead at 42) I would warn you that alcoholism as severe as this cannot be toned down, it cannot be a weekend thing, it cannot be no drinking at home. He either stops drinking or he dies its as simple as that.
You can try and get him sectioned, I did this with my mum twice but it didn't make any difference. Unless he wants to quit (im assuming you ve asked him?) then there's nothing you can do.
Im sorry and best of luck, if you want to PM then feel free.
When he is on drink, he sees no reason to change anything. When he is off drink, he is probably working or a long way away from me, so it is difficult to catch him face to face sober - a which would be the time for that discussion.
I suspect a compounding factor is that for his business reasons, he had to have a health check a couple of months ago. The doctor asked if he smoked, "yes lots"... and drinks... "yes lots", so he is quite honest about it. But the result of the tests is that there are no signs of physical impact on him! A license to carry on if ever I heard it. It seems in his mind he is more likely to die from a drink related accident (as his mate did in his house, fell down stairs and split skull on a radiator at the bottom) than organ failure. So he has actually seen the potential first hand and has also been to many excessive behaviour related funerals recently.
I am not sure I would like to go as far as to get him sectioned without his agreement at present, I would be just one more of the world against him, in that way an alcoholic thinks. He needs to make the decision to change himself, with a little bit of a gentle nudge... rather than what he would see as yet another t
t nagging him.I think I know the conversation I need to have with him, just looking to see if anyone else has any ideas before I take the plunge and possibly fail.
Having been through this with two of my brothers, I sympathise. Fortunately, my brothers were I their 20s and, in the end, there was just enough of a glimmer of the happy successful life that drink was causing them to abandon to get them through to sobriety. Neither has fallen off the wagon in the last two decades. It took several years though in each case, long hard years in which the family came close to despair, even with the second once the first was sober.
The drunk has to want to get sober.
The drunk has to want to get sober.
Unfortunately, I really don't think there is anything you can do to change him. And someone that drinks that much is likely to keel over if they stop. On the basis that he's beyond help, if I was in your position, I'd tell him to do one and stay out of your life until/unless he sorts himself out. You don't want/need to see him like that, and by letting him drink in your home/company then he'll see that as you endorsing his behaviour. There's a slim chance that if you cut him off that might make him see things differently, and however unlikely, I think that's about your only hope. Maybe also tell him that you don't want his inheritance.
More importantly, he's not fit to be carer for his missus in that state. Phone social services and report him, before he ends up turning nasty on her while he's pissed up.
More importantly, he's not fit to be carer for his missus in that state. Phone social services and report him, before he ends up turning nasty on her while he's pissed up.
SeeFive said:
I suspect a compounding factor is that for his business reasons, he had to have a health check a couple of months ago. The doctor asked if he smoked, "yes lots"... and drinks... "yes lots", so he is quite honest about it. But the result of the tests is that there are no signs of physical impact on him! A license to carry on if ever I heard it.
This makes it even harder for you, but it does seem strange. How long has he had the habit and roughly how many units would he pack away per week? It sounds like he's at a level far beyond something where no damage would have been done, and has been for some time (years/decades?), and at his age the damage done is far worse than when your young.I know it affects people in different ways, but if we are to believe what we read then 10 years of drinking a 4 pack of beers every night would probably lead to liver disease of some degree. I know I was shocked when a good friend had a scan a few years back as a result of an accident (not alcohol related) and his readings were off the chart. We all knew he enjoyed a drink, but at maybe a couple of bottles of wine a week none of us would have expected it to cause a problem.
The other problem with tests done at the GP is they aren't always able to pick up on the extent of the damage from blood test. Specialist tests are the way to go if you really want to be sure.
A friend of mine has been a chronic piss head for 25 years or so. He had a comprehensive MoT a short while back for another health matter and came up with a squeaky clean bill of health. It's bizarre.
Like anyone with anything, it will only stop when they actually want to, not because they feel they should. Until that day arrives they'll just have lapse after lapse.
Like anyone with anything, it will only stop when they actually want to, not because they feel they should. Until that day arrives they'll just have lapse after lapse.
mjb1 said:
I'd tell him to do one and stay out of your life until/unless he sorts himself out. You don't want/need to see him like that, and by letting him drink in your home/company then he'll see that as you endorsing his behaviour. There's a slim chance that if you cut him off that might make him see things differently, and however unlikely, I think that's about your only hope. Maybe also tell him that you don't want his inheritance.
.
The problem there is that for 99% of serious alcoholics, the urge to drink will in the end be greater than their will to stop and hold on to their loved ones. It's a sad state, but that's the level of grip it has. You then end up pushing the problem on to someone else, in this case his missus who is the one who really needs the help. .
You can't do anything to stop an alcoholic from drinking if they don't want to stop. I lost someone close to me through drink and came close to losing a second.
The only thing that stopped the second person from drinking themselves to death was a psychiatrist spotting the underlying problem which was depression. I would suggest trying to talk to your brother about his issues, not his drinking, and try and push him towards getting help for the underlying problem.
It's tough, and I am glad I am not in your position again (at the moment).
Good luck.
The only thing that stopped the second person from drinking themselves to death was a psychiatrist spotting the underlying problem which was depression. I would suggest trying to talk to your brother about his issues, not his drinking, and try and push him towards getting help for the underlying problem.
It's tough, and I am glad I am not in your position again (at the moment).
Good luck.
The Ferret said:
This makes it even harder for you, but it does seem strange. How long has he had the habit and roughly how many units would he pack away per week? It sounds like he's at a level far beyond something where no damage would have been done, and has been for some time (years/decades?), and at his age the damage done is far worse than when your young.
I know it affects people in different ways, but if we are to believe what we read then 10 years of drinking a 4 pack of beers every night would probably lead to liver disease of some degree. I know I was shocked when a good friend had a scan a few years back as a result of an accident (not alcohol related) and his readings were off the chart. We all knew he enjoyed a drink, but at maybe a couple of bottles of wine a week none of us would have expected it to cause a problem.
The other problem with tests done at the GP is they aren't always able to pick up on the extent of the damage from blood test. Specialist tests are the way to go if you really want to be sure.
I would say he has been drinking to excess in multiple day binges for 40 years. The big BUT is that he did not drink so regularly as he did not drink at home. He at that time admitted to me and others that he had a drink problem, and that is that he doesn't (didn't??) need a drink when he woke up every day, and I know that he went weeks and months without. I know it affects people in different ways, but if we are to believe what we read then 10 years of drinking a 4 pack of beers every night would probably lead to liver disease of some degree. I know I was shocked when a good friend had a scan a few years back as a result of an accident (not alcohol related) and his readings were off the chart. We all knew he enjoyed a drink, but at maybe a couple of bottles of wine a week none of us would have expected it to cause a problem.
The other problem with tests done at the GP is they aren't always able to pick up on the extent of the damage from blood test. Specialist tests are the way to go if you really want to be sure.
His acknowledged drink problem is that when he starts, he doesn't stop until he collapses, which can be days. But these days he is starting a lot more regularly. Getting him back to drinking as a person out with his mates, rather than a person alone at home should not reduce his "enjoyment" but should reduce his intake... a sensible person may say. However, he needs to be that sensible person, which is quite difficult if you are permanently pissed.
Thanks to all the others for responses by the way. It does help.
Interesting to read the replies talking about the needs of his missus. Thanks guys.
This I believe is a massive contributory factor as he does literally everything for her. Those who have experience of someone with dementia will understand just what I mean by everything. We had a conversation on Sunday about her pretty early on, (I had to ask where she was as he never leaves her side) and in his drunken way he had decided that it was now time for her kids and sisters to take some of the responsibility - with some fairly outrageous examples of how they do nothing and try to make it more difficult for him. To be fair, I was already aware, they really don't give a damn on my own first hand evidence.
One of the conversations I want to have with him is that although I know he would not do anything deliberately or maliciously to hurt his missus either drunk or sober, his lack of ability to care for her properly means that before long, someone (me) is gonna step in and suggest to the authorities that he is incapable of looking after her in the way that he would want while pissed, and he is pissed too much of the time around her these days.
This I believe is a massive contributory factor as he does literally everything for her. Those who have experience of someone with dementia will understand just what I mean by everything. We had a conversation on Sunday about her pretty early on, (I had to ask where she was as he never leaves her side) and in his drunken way he had decided that it was now time for her kids and sisters to take some of the responsibility - with some fairly outrageous examples of how they do nothing and try to make it more difficult for him. To be fair, I was already aware, they really don't give a damn on my own first hand evidence.
One of the conversations I want to have with him is that although I know he would not do anything deliberately or maliciously to hurt his missus either drunk or sober, his lack of ability to care for her properly means that before long, someone (me) is gonna step in and suggest to the authorities that he is incapable of looking after her in the way that he would want while pissed, and he is pissed too much of the time around her these days.
SeeFive said:
I would say he has been drinking to excess in multiple day binges for 40 years. The big BUT is that he did not drink so regularly as he did not drink at home. He at that time admitted to me and others that he had a drink problem, and that is that he doesn't (didn't??) need a drink when he woke up every day, and I know that he went weeks and months without.
His acknowledged drink problem is that when he starts, he doesn't stop until he collapses, which can be days. But these days he is starting a lot more regularly. Getting him back to drinking as a person out with his mates, rather than a person alone at home should not reduce his "enjoyment" but should reduce his intake... a sensible person may say. However, he needs to be that sensible person, which is quite difficult if you are permanently pissed.
Thanks to all the others for responses by the way. It does help.
Without sounding rude, have you got any proof that the Doc gave him a clean bill of health - i.e. were you sat with him when he gave the news?His acknowledged drink problem is that when he starts, he doesn't stop until he collapses, which can be days. But these days he is starting a lot more regularly. Getting him back to drinking as a person out with his mates, rather than a person alone at home should not reduce his "enjoyment" but should reduce his intake... a sensible person may say. However, he needs to be that sensible person, which is quite difficult if you are permanently pissed.
Thanks to all the others for responses by the way. It does help.
The reason I ask is that its common for alcoholics to deny/hide everything, and they are very good at it, lets face it they've been doing it themselves for many years so it comes naturally. He might not be telling you everything on the basis that if you knew he was ill you would try to intervene, which would likely mean being given a hard time over future drinking, alcoholics become very clever in their quest to preserve their ability to get the next drink.
Of course this doesn't help you with the problem at hand, and as someone above mentioned the best bet might be to sit down with him and have an open conversation about life and see if you can get to the bottom of why he does what he does. Seeing a professional would be an even better way of doing it with him, but in all honesty if he doesn't want to change and can't see any real reason to then you really hard banging your head against a wall.
Have you heard of the Sinclair Method?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gMU_Lzsm4
Buy this movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm4JPHM7isY
Buy this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cure-Alcoholism-Roy-PhD-E...
There are options that don't involve medical detoxes and abstinence. If he's compliant, he can drink himself sober.
This man can help you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUv9fHoDvdk&t=...
https://alcoholhometreatment.com
Read this story:
https://alcoholhometreatment.com/a-patients-journe...
Best of luck OP. Your brother has an illness. An addiction. He is not doing it on purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9gMU_Lzsm4
Buy this movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm4JPHM7isY
Buy this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cure-Alcoholism-Roy-PhD-E...
There are options that don't involve medical detoxes and abstinence. If he's compliant, he can drink himself sober.
This man can help you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUv9fHoDvdk&t=...
https://alcoholhometreatment.com
Read this story:
https://alcoholhometreatment.com/a-patients-journe...
Best of luck OP. Your brother has an illness. An addiction. He is not doing it on purpose.
The Ferret said:
Without sounding rude, have you got any proof that the Doc gave him a clean bill of health - i.e. were you sat with him when he gave the news?
The reason I ask is that its common for alcoholics to deny/hide everything, and they are very good at it, lets face it they've been doing it themselves for many years so it comes naturally. He might not be telling you everything on the basis that if you knew he was ill you would try to intervene, which would likely mean being given a hard time over future drinking, alcoholics become very clever in their quest to preserve their ability to get the next drink.
Of course this doesn't help you with the problem at hand, and as someone above mentioned the best bet might be to sit down with him and have an open conversation about life and see if you can get to the bottom of why he does what he does. Seeing a professional would be an even better way of doing it with him, but in all honesty if he doesn't want to change and can't see any real reason to then you really hard banging your head against a wall.
I don't see that as rude to ask at all, helpful not rude.The reason I ask is that its common for alcoholics to deny/hide everything, and they are very good at it, lets face it they've been doing it themselves for many years so it comes naturally. He might not be telling you everything on the basis that if you knew he was ill you would try to intervene, which would likely mean being given a hard time over future drinking, alcoholics become very clever in their quest to preserve their ability to get the next drink.
Of course this doesn't help you with the problem at hand, and as someone above mentioned the best bet might be to sit down with him and have an open conversation about life and see if you can get to the bottom of why he does what he does. Seeing a professional would be an even better way of doing it with him, but in all honesty if he doesn't want to change and can't see any real reason to then you really hard banging your head against a wall.
The answer is, no I haven't seen it, but he has always been brutally honest with me before about his drinking and the impact on his health and life. He has lost good businesses over it, and he openly admitted the true reason at the time. I mentioned that when he cut down last time (yonks ago) he had told me about the bleeding and stuff after a good session. Given the conversation we had Sunday "this is gonna kill me", followed by his plans for his estate he is still well aware and pretty open with me. Sort of a cry for help if it was from anyone else, but I doubt that from him - too independent. So you can see why I think I have to act, and more importantly get it right to back up his thought that he is killing himself.
So I don't really doubt him on the report, but given the opportunity will raise that I can't see how that can be the case. At that point, I know he will volunteer it if it is clean.
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