Low Carb High Fat discussion LCHF
Discussion
Seems to be cropping up in all manner of topics, and sometimes derailing the general thread. Perhaps we could discuss it here, and refer others back to here if relevent to other discussions?
My understanding is it is likely to be of some benefit primarily to those who are insulin resistant. Excess insulin inhibits glucose uptake, which then gets stored as fat. In addition, excess insulin reduces the body's ability to burn fat as fuel. A double whammy. As a result, these people are often overweight, and may suffer from type II diabetes mellitus.
Alernatively, it may be a lifestyle choice for those who are insulin sensitive but prefer to reduce carbohydrates and increase fat for aesthetic and/or other perceived health benefits.
An issue with these discussions about diet is, most of the clinical research is rarely if ever quantative, but based on either observational studies or tests on animals (rats, mice, etc.) - neither of which are very reliable. It's not terribly ethical to force humans to stick to rigorous diets for months or decades - also kind of difficult to double blind the control group.
Debate gets polarised, and dogma prevails. Mostly.
My understanding is it is likely to be of some benefit primarily to those who are insulin resistant. Excess insulin inhibits glucose uptake, which then gets stored as fat. In addition, excess insulin reduces the body's ability to burn fat as fuel. A double whammy. As a result, these people are often overweight, and may suffer from type II diabetes mellitus.
Alernatively, it may be a lifestyle choice for those who are insulin sensitive but prefer to reduce carbohydrates and increase fat for aesthetic and/or other perceived health benefits.
An issue with these discussions about diet is, most of the clinical research is rarely if ever quantative, but based on either observational studies or tests on animals (rats, mice, etc.) - neither of which are very reliable. It's not terribly ethical to force humans to stick to rigorous diets for months or decades - also kind of difficult to double blind the control group.
Debate gets polarised, and dogma prevails. Mostly.
I guess try it and see how you get on.
The problem with someone vouching for the relative success of any diet is they go from fat and inactive to religiously following the XYZ diet but also start some kind of training 7 days a week. Then state without any element of doubt that the XYZ diet works, whether the XYZ diet tells you to avoid fat, avoid carbs, avoid meat, avoid fruit or avoid eating every other day.
I did recall Ordinary Chap (where's he gone??) saying about 5 years ago that he witnessed fellow trainers get fat when they ate too much protein while following a keto diet or similar.
The problem with someone vouching for the relative success of any diet is they go from fat and inactive to religiously following the XYZ diet but also start some kind of training 7 days a week. Then state without any element of doubt that the XYZ diet works, whether the XYZ diet tells you to avoid fat, avoid carbs, avoid meat, avoid fruit or avoid eating every other day.
I did recall Ordinary Chap (where's he gone??) saying about 5 years ago that he witnessed fellow trainers get fat when they ate too much protein while following a keto diet or similar.
Humans are omnivores with the added complications of some very wide ranging genetic adaptions and cultural practices. We can pretty much eat anything and survive.
If you're storing excessive fat it's most likely because you're eating too much, not because you're eating the wrong thing.
There is certainly not a single prescribed diet that is going to suit everyone, nor should you go looking for one.
If you're storing excessive fat it's most likely because you're eating too much, not because you're eating the wrong thing.
There is certainly not a single prescribed diet that is going to suit everyone, nor should you go looking for one.
I got diagnosed with diabetes in February, cut out all carbs from my diet and lost 25kg within a few months. It wasn't "high fat", I just didn't have potatoes, rice, pasta, bread or beer and replaced with cauliflower or other vegetables. My HB1AC result is now in the 'normal' range.
Edited by boxst on Monday 20th August 13:55
Hoofy said:
I guess try it and see how you get on.
The problem with someone vouching for the relative success of any diet is they go from fat and inactive to religiously following the XYZ diet but also start some kind of training 7 days a week. Then state without any element of doubt that the XYZ diet works, whether the XYZ diet tells you to avoid fat, avoid carbs, avoid meat, avoid fruit or avoid eating every other day.
I did recall Ordinary Chap (where's he gone??) saying about 5 years ago that he witnessed fellow trainers get fat when they ate too much protein while following a keto diet or similar.
This, and boxst's post below, are what I think confuses things. For most people using more calories than they consume will result in weight loss, however that reduction is achieved - at least I believe that is the case but am willing to be corrected. There also seems fairly good evidence that low carb is beneficial to diabetics (not sure if that is specifically HFLC or just LC).The problem with someone vouching for the relative success of any diet is they go from fat and inactive to religiously following the XYZ diet but also start some kind of training 7 days a week. Then state without any element of doubt that the XYZ diet works, whether the XYZ diet tells you to avoid fat, avoid carbs, avoid meat, avoid fruit or avoid eating every other day.
I did recall Ordinary Chap (where's he gone??) saying about 5 years ago that he witnessed fellow trainers get fat when they ate too much protein while following a keto diet or similar.
I'm interested how people feel it would benefit the general population, why it wouldn't some, what is so good about it, does the weight loss come from reduced calorie intake or some other method, is eating carbohydrate from grains etc actually bad for you, is eating saturated fat good for you.
Simple stuff really,
I've no strong view either way though I tend to err on the (old fashioned?) side of "everything in moderation".
Hoofy said:
I did recall Ordinary Chap (where's he gone??) saying about 5 years ago that he witnessed fellow trainers get fat when they ate too much protein while following a keto diet or similar.
OC decided to stop posting, and rejoined with a different username. That was a while ago, not sure if he's still about.ETA. Yep, he's still posting.
Excess protein which cannot be metabolised by the liver is converted to glucose I think, which is why it knocks them out of ketosis.
All things being equal, we have a set requirement for protein which is in the region of 10-20%. Those with IR have a reduced capacity for carbohydrates which may be 20g, or maybe 500g, depending on the level of IR - the balance of their daily requirement coming from fat. This is why it can often be described as high fat.
Edited by LordGrover on Monday 20th August 14:25
mooseracer said:
This, and boxst's post below, are what I think confuses things. For most people using more calories than they consume will result in weight loss, however that reduction is achieved - at least I believe that is the case but am willing to be corrected. There also seems fairly good evidence that low carb is beneficial to diabetics (not sure if that is specifically HFLC or just LC).
I'm interested how people feel it would benefit the general population, why it wouldn't some, what is so good about it, does the weight loss come from reduced calorie intake or some other method, is eating carbohydrate from grains etc actually bad for you, is eating saturated fat good for you.
Simple stuff really,
I've no strong view either way though I tend to err on the (old fashioned?) side of "everything in moderation".
Mine was purely for the diabetes although I was overweight. I haven't been restricting my calories (or in fact looking), and haven't taken up any major change in exercise. I do need to start going to the gym as I am probably just about to go for "concentration camp" chic which is starting to not look good. I'm interested how people feel it would benefit the general population, why it wouldn't some, what is so good about it, does the weight loss come from reduced calorie intake or some other method, is eating carbohydrate from grains etc actually bad for you, is eating saturated fat good for you.
Simple stuff really,
I've no strong view either way though I tend to err on the (old fashioned?) side of "everything in moderation".
Interestingly my wife has a couple of books ( Wheat Belly and Eat right for your blood type) both of which suggest that certain groups of people benefit from particular types of diet and had been suggesting I look at it for years . I, naturally, completely ignored my wife and not until I got diabetes did I look on the internet and kick myself into doing something about it. Having lost so much weight I did get around to reading them and it is certainly possible that they are correct.
LordGrover said:
Hoofy said:
I did recall Ordinary Chap (where's he gone??) saying about 5 years ago that he witnessed fellow trainers get fat when they ate too much protein while following a keto diet or similar.
OC decided to stop posting, and rejoined with a different username. That was a while ago, not sure if he's still about.ETA. Yep, he's still posting.
Excess protein which cannot be metabolised by the liver is converted to glucose I think, which is why it knocks them out of ketosis.
All things being equal, we have a set requirement for protein which is in the region of 10-20%. Those with IR have a reduced capacity for carbohydrates which may be 20g, or maybe 500g, depending on the level of IR - the balance of their daily requirement coming from fat. This is why it can often be described as high fat.
Edited by LordGrover on Monday 20th August 14:25
I'll continue to eat a moderately balanced diet then.
My first contribution is to dispel the calories in/out idea. Whilst it can technically be argued as correct if one is misinformed, it fails to acknowledge the type of calories and what happens to them. If you are not very insulin sensitive, and are consuming carbohydrate, complex or simple, then your cells will not be able to efficiently take up the resulting metabolised glucose. Instead, a great deal of it will be stored as fat, completely outside your control. Your body will not burn the energy, it will store it. You will get hungrier and hungrier, and fatter and fatter.
Eventually you will become insulin resistant. Your appetite control will fall apart through a lack of energy and the additional help of leptin resistance. By now, diabetes is assured. None of this happens if you don’t consume carbohydrate.
ETA: to add further, if going down the LCHF road, you must replace carbohydrate with natural fat, not protein. Excess protein is both pointless and entirely counterproductive to ketosis.
Eventually you will become insulin resistant. Your appetite control will fall apart through a lack of energy and the additional help of leptin resistance. By now, diabetes is assured. None of this happens if you don’t consume carbohydrate.
ETA: to add further, if going down the LCHF road, you must replace carbohydrate with natural fat, not protein. Excess protein is both pointless and entirely counterproductive to ketosis.
Edited by Kenny Powers on Monday 20th August 22:17
mooseracer said:
This, and boxst's post below, are what I think confuses things. For most people using more calories than they consume will result in weight loss, however that reduction is achieved - at least I believe that is the case but am willing to be corrected. There also seems fairly good evidence that low carb is beneficial to diabetics (not sure if that is specifically HFLC or just LC).
I'm interested how people feel it would benefit the general population, why it wouldn't some, what is so good about it, does the weight loss come from reduced calorie intake or some other method, is eating carbohydrate from grains etc actually bad for you, is eating saturated fat good for you.
Simple stuff really,
I've no strong view either way though I tend to err on the (old fashioned?) side of "everything in moderation".
See insulin resistance with regards to the calories in/out idea. You’re right in that it works for “most” but in reality that most is actually “some”. All humans have a varying degree of sensitivity to insulin. Those fat people that everyone likes to mock...are they eating too much and not moving enough, or is that what they’re eating is turning to fat because their cells aren’t using the energy?I'm interested how people feel it would benefit the general population, why it wouldn't some, what is so good about it, does the weight loss come from reduced calorie intake or some other method, is eating carbohydrate from grains etc actually bad for you, is eating saturated fat good for you.
Simple stuff really,
I've no strong view either way though I tend to err on the (old fashioned?) side of "everything in moderation".
Regarding benefits, LCHF doesn’t simply bring about weight loss, it allows your body to return to its natural weight and stay there with no effort and no calorie counting. Ever. The mechanism for this is that without elevated blood glucose concentrations, there is no need for elevated blood insulin concentrations. Without excess insulin coursing through your veins, your body switches from a fat storing machine to a fat burning machine. You then have to replace the carbohydrates with fat in order to achieve sustained ketosis.
The benefits of the metablic state of ketosis are numerous. Lean body mass. Improved mood. Improved mental clarity. Fully automatic and effortless appetite control. Almost limitless stores of readily usable energy without the need to keep topping the tank up every three hours. Reduced oxidisation of the small particle LDL lipoprotein, reducing inflammation and the chances of atherosclerosis and heart disease, to name just two. Reduced glycation in the brain, improving your chances of not becoming senile with age. Reduced effects of aging. Probably no need to continue
With regards to grains, the simplest way to answer that question is to point out that wheat will raise blood glucose and insulin levels more than table sugar. It’s up to the individual if they care or not.
LordGrover said:
Excess insulin inhibits glucose uptake, which then gets stored as fat.
Just to make a minor correction here. I’m not sure that’s the best way to word it. The presence of excess insulin is the indicator that its efficacy is failing. In other words the subject is becoming insulin resistant through excess glucose metabolism, and the pancreas is responding by secreting more. You are correct though that whilst these levels remain high, the body cannot burn fat.In people who are becoming resistant, their blood insulin concentrations are likely to be permanently elevated. This means that not only are their cells becoming incapable of glucose uptake, but their bodies are incapable of burning fat. They begin to literally starve on the inside and start consuming ever more carbohydrate that only adds to the unusable fat stores while giving them very little energy.
A fasting insulin blood test is able to detect failing insulin sensitivity long before a fasting glucose test. But perhaps tellingly, the former is not readily available through the NHS. By the time the latter has picked up the issue, the patient is already at a minimum of the pre-diabetes stage. At which point they are told by their doctor to start consuming more carbohydrate.
ETA. Another point of major importance that isn’t readily understood, is that the liver also becomes insulin resistant. The liver can manufacture glucose without the need for the person to eat. Insulin is the signal for it to stop doing so when they begin eating. The liver can’t ‘see’ the insulin, so it continues to pour glucose into the blood even when the person is metabolising carbohydrate. The snowball effect of all this is a massive metabolic disaster that will never be fixed unless the person stops all carbohydrate consumption. This would also have prevented it from happening in the first place.
Edited by Kenny Powers on Tuesday 21st August 07:42
Yes it is extremely complicated, and it’s foolish to expect everyone to take the time to fully understand it all. I was forced into it with my refusal to accept the prognosis of my T2DM as a degenerative condition that would kill me.
I’m clearly no world authority on the matter, but I have spent several hours every day for twenty months researching and experimenting on my own body with glucose and ketone meters. As such, despite what some on here may think, I am fairly well informed.
I’m clearly no world authority on the matter, but I have spent several hours every day for twenty months researching and experimenting on my own body with glucose and ketone meters. As such, despite what some on here may think, I am fairly well informed.
I don’t think the vast majority of the population could stick to a low/no carb diet if it works for you and has other health benefits good for you. A diet of this nature is just too restrictive for me, I like the occasional beer, a slice of pizza, a biscuit, fruit, an ice cream etc. Carbs don’t make you fat, however high carb foods are probably also what the majority tend to binge and exercise portion control on so I can see how at least initially a low carb diet would have positive results for those wanting weight loss.
Some general points:
If you consume too many calories you will gain weight, and if you don’t you won’t.
You don’t need insulin to store fat-if you overeat calories then the fat will be stored whether insulin is there or not. My understanding is you’d can’t stop insulin being secreted anyhow even if you stop eating carbs as protein causes its secretion too.
Low carb diets aren’t any more effective for fat loss approaches, but some people find them easier to stick to as for some they reduce hunger and cut out a lot of junk.
In the current world of fad diets (which I’m not necessarily saying low carb is) the simple move more and consume less (and track if it helps) seems to get overlooked which for the majority I would suggest is the more sustainable approach in the long term for fat loss and maintenance.
Some general points:
If you consume too many calories you will gain weight, and if you don’t you won’t.
You don’t need insulin to store fat-if you overeat calories then the fat will be stored whether insulin is there or not. My understanding is you’d can’t stop insulin being secreted anyhow even if you stop eating carbs as protein causes its secretion too.
Low carb diets aren’t any more effective for fat loss approaches, but some people find them easier to stick to as for some they reduce hunger and cut out a lot of junk.
In the current world of fad diets (which I’m not necessarily saying low carb is) the simple move more and consume less (and track if it helps) seems to get overlooked which for the majority I would suggest is the more sustainable approach in the long term for fat loss and maintenance.
Carbs do make you fat if you are not insulin sensitive. This isn’t a matter of opinion. It’s biology. This seem to be the part that is difficult to get across. It is why we have an obesity epidemic - carbohydrate consumption not in keeping with nature is causing insulin resistance in those who are not genetically sensitive to it.
Carbs may not make you fat, but that is because you are insulin sensitive
Carbs may not make you fat, but that is because you are insulin sensitive
It’s also worth adding that hardly anyone, if anyone at all, overeats calories when they are on LCHF. It returns you to nature, where your appetite is correctly controlled by hormones. So yes it’s true that excessive calories will still be stored as fat, it is almost impossible for a person in ketosis to do so unless they are actively trying to get fat, which is equally as unlikely.
Also for sure it is true that protein causes insulin secretion. This is one of the reasons that high consumption isn’t compatible with a properly managed LCHF ketogenic diet.
Also for sure it is true that protein causes insulin secretion. This is one of the reasons that high consumption isn’t compatible with a properly managed LCHF ketogenic diet.
This is a good article that covers some points above, particularly insulin, and some mistaken preconceptions - https://www.muscleforlife.com/how-insulin-works/
Carbs do not make you fat, fat does not make you fat, protein does not make you fat. Excess calories make you fat.
Low carb diets are good for diabetics, precisely because they have issues with insulin- this issue is usually caused by a unhealthy, sedentary lifestyle, with high carb intakes.
If you stay generally healthy and have a balanced diet, you'll not likely encounter this problem. As such, LCHF diet should be viewed as any other diet in how it works- via calorie restriction. If it suits you, and you stick to it, it will work. As will any diet by the same principles.
Carbs do not make you fat, fat does not make you fat, protein does not make you fat. Excess calories make you fat.
Low carb diets are good for diabetics, precisely because they have issues with insulin- this issue is usually caused by a unhealthy, sedentary lifestyle, with high carb intakes.
If you stay generally healthy and have a balanced diet, you'll not likely encounter this problem. As such, LCHF diet should be viewed as any other diet in how it works- via calorie restriction. If it suits you, and you stick to it, it will work. As will any diet by the same principles.
Kenny Powers said:
That article ignores the fact that humans did not evolve in nature with an abundance of carbohydrate at our fingertips. Specifically breakfast cereals and pints of fructose with the fibre removed.
But you’ll disagree and that’s fine.
It's not an article on human evolution? It's an article on how insulin works- and it's factual in it's content. I'm not sure what you're point is? But you’ll disagree and that’s fine.
Also, breakfast cereals and pints of fructose , what's that got to do with anything?
a311 said:
I don’t think the vast majority of the population could stick to a low/no carb diet if it works for you and has other health benefits good for you. A diet of this nature is just too restrictive for me, I like the occasional beer, a slice of pizza, a biscuit, fruit, an ice cream etc. Carbs don’t make you fat, however high carb foods are probably also what the majority tend to binge and exercise portion control on so I can see how at least initially a low carb diet would have positive results for those wanting weight loss.
Low carb doesn’t need to be no carb though.I was hardcore Keto (<20g day) for 3 months, lost 15kg (103 to 88kg) and actually found it fairly easy. I’m now no longer counting macros but I fairly regularly have a couple of beers, a thin base pizza or the odd ice-cream. I’m probably dipping in and out of Keto but am not gaining weight and still feel energetic and alert compared to when I was scoffing carbs 3 times a day.
It’s still really easy.
I eat way more green veg than I used to and very moderate protein. I think it’s pretty healthy, it certainly feels it.
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