Leg day without Squats or Deads? Possible or not?

[stargazer30]

Well its xmas eve and I'm sitting here after taking naproxin, lower back done again. This after the crazy feat of squatting 3x8 with 60kg. 3 years into lifting and 41 years old I've made consitent progress on my upper body but lower body after my noob gains has got steadily worse. Main reason is my lower back but my knees act up too.

Before any one suggests it, I've tried it all with these two lifts. Personal trainers, read god knows how many books, various different form types, trap bars etc.. the end result is always the same, any sort of weight on the bar and my lower back gets injured. No warning, everything feels fine, next day or later the same day I'm done in.

I work out 4 days a week, upper/lower so legs 2 days a week. Anyone suggest good day 1 and day 2 routine without squats and deads (or maybe with light/high rep deads, no squats for sure). My gym has a prowler sled and leg press which work well together for me but I need something that will work my glutes, hamstrings without going near my spinal erectors which are hugh yet injure if you look at them!

PS - happy xmas everyone, lift heavy (if you can) and stay safe :-)

[Hoofy]

Presumably you can still carry some kind of weight through a bent knee (or you wouldn't even touch a dumbbell to bicep curl it)?

Assuming you are able to bend your knees with some weight, why not try slow partial air squats, focusing on time under tension, knees only bent over the toes and no further. You could do that for reps, each rep taking 10 seconds, eg 3x15. Could even try doing it on one leg only, or in a partial lunge. It will improve your balance and your quads will ache. Sure, you won't have tree trunk legs but it's better than not training them at all.

You can try holding db or kb and see how it feels on your knees.

As for deads, try Romanian deads.

[Slagathore]

weighted lunges?

Will no doubt require spinal erector involvement, but I would imagine most exercises do?

Can use the plates or dumbbells and should be fairly safe with the back, as you should be keeping it straight and letting the legs/hips do the moving.

[hajaba123]

step ups, bulgarian split squats.

What has your doctor/ a sports physio said about you back? Sounds scary to be that bad!

[stargazer30]

I was doing weighted lunges about a month ago, before I swapped them back for squats. When lunging I worked upto 3x8 with a 45kg barbell, they don't cause me back trouble but I don't get much out of them either. Once I get the weight up balance becomes an issue with a barbell but at that weight I'm still not taxing my legs. I haven't tried heavy dumbbells though.

I've never seen a sports physio, best I got out of my GP was a regular physio which helped whilst I was not doing any deads or squats but not long after I started again and worked back up my back injured yet again.

[Slagathore]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOExDuqIMeA

First video that came up on Google, so might be some better technique ones about.

Try them like that. I think I got up to about 26kg dumbbell in each hand. Much easier to really light the quads up and a lot easier to do to fatigue without worrying about having a bar fall on you.

I did them as well as squats and found it easier to work them to fatigue than with squats.

[didelydoo]

If you can leg press- you can get an great entire work out from that- feet high and wide for hamstring focus, low and close for quad focus.

Tbh, if you push hard, you can get a fantastic leg session.

Cable pull throughs for glutes, or kettle bell swings.

[Hoofy]

Oh yeah, good point, if you can't squat then use the leg press. If knees are an issue, go light and focus on time under tension.

[hajaba123]

didelydoo said:

Cable pull throughs for glutes, or kettle bell swings.

Depending on what on earth is wrong with your back then these could be a massive help to take the pressure off it

[popeyewhite]

Got a hack squat? Much easier on the knees and back.

[gareth h]

I've got a similar issue, lower back is worn out, even light squats give me probs.
Leg press / single leg split squats / pistol squats followed by leg curls / extensions, works for me.

[Wobbegong]

A friend suffered similar, he started to use landline squats instead

https://www.t-nation.com/training/best-squat-youre...

[TwistingMyMelon]

I do gym work on my legs only to protect against knee injuries cycling and build a bit of sprinting power .

I just do :

Squatting without weights . Lots would argue this is pointless but it's a good warm up and helps build form.

I then move on to goblet squats with , 12, 16, 20,25 kg withkettle bells . Again not to taxing on knees as I employ core as much as poss.

Piston squats. These were taught to me by a physio , hard bloody work !! I started off all over the shop not going low at all and now can put in a decent effort.

Glute bridges . A few reps of single leg glute bridges help build glutes

If I was you I'd find a decent physio who could help you put together a decent routine and advise on form . For me I like body weight exercises as they help me avoid injuries

[garfylarfy]

Another vote here for split squats or weighted split squats.

What about block pulls / rack pulls? I had some twinges in my lower back from DLs (admittedly nothing serious but enough to stop me deadlifting) so switched to these and even loading up the weight I've had no back issues.

[MurderousCrow]

stargazer30 said:

Well its xmas eve and I'm sitting here after taking naproxin, lower back done again. This after the crazy feat of squatting 3x8 with 60kg. 3 years into lifting and 41 years old I've made consitent progress on my upper body but lower body after my noob gains has got steadily worse. Main reason is my lower back but my knees act up too.

Before any one suggests it, I've tried it all with these two lifts. Personal trainers, read god knows how many books, various different form types, trap bars etc.. the end result is always the same, any sort of weight on the bar and my lower back gets injured. No warning, everything feels fine, next day or later the same day I'm done in.

I work out 4 days a week, upper/lower so legs 2 days a week. Anyone suggest good day 1 and day 2 routine without squats and deads (or maybe with light/high rep deads, no squats for sure). My gym has a prowler sled and leg press which work well together for me but I need something that will work my glutes, hamstrings without going near my spinal erectors which are hugh yet injure if you look at them!

Not what you're looking for exactly, but I feel you may benefit from intervention by a good sports physio. They should be able to run through some screening and assessment tools such as Keele's STaRT Back Pain tool and a movement screen along with a detailed history, to identify the issues and help you work through them.

Obviously it's no kind of diagnosis, but I provided the following advice to someone who suffers with similar pain back in June:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

In the meantime you could try holding a deep bodyweight squat for increasing periods a couple of times a day. This really does work in terms of improving mobility and function in the squat, if done consistently. Move around in the squat gently, and focus on keeping the chest up. Consciously squeeze the glutes when ascending or descending.

In addition, some further exercises which may help without stressing the spinal erectors *too* much may include glute ham raises (GHR), and hip thrusts.

Good short article from a Professor of physio on this issue, in which she touches on the activation issues I mention in the link above:

https://theconversation.com/best-way-to-avoid-back...

stargazer30 said:

PS - happy xmas everyone

You too hope you had a great one.

[TheJimi]

It's worth pointing out that not all trainers or coaches are equal.

You may well have gotten stty advice / lifting feedback.

[Robbidoo]

Something isn't firing and it's leaving your lower back to do the work. You need to see a proper sports physio and go through a proper diagnostic process to understand where the weakness really is. Trying to out-train it won't work, this is a technique issue, imo.

[TheJimi]

Agreed.

[So]

Robbidoo said:

Something isn't firing and it's leaving your lower back to do the work. You need to see a proper sports physio and go through a proper diagnostic process to understand where the weakness really is. Trying to out-train it won't work, this is a technique issue, imo.

It may not be a technique issue per-se, by that I mean something he could correct just with improved technique, but seeing (a decent) sports physio will be £50 well spent.

I haven't squatted in about 4 years, on the advice of my sports physio. It's annoying because I don't like not being able to do things, but I can do other stuff and it's removed a great deal of angst from my life.

[Douglas Quaid]

TheJimi said:

It's worth pointing out that not all trainers or coaches are equal.

You may well have gotten stty advice / lifting feedback.

I agree with this. You have an issue with your form that your coach didn’t spot. Get a new coach. That could sort it. In the mean time get your core as strong as possible. You might just have weak abs. A good coach will help anyway.

Edited by Douglas Quaid on Friday 28th December 20:42