Discussion
Did one of these on Friday, I know it's the gold standard cardiovascular/cardiorespiratory assessment, but I wasn't that bothered, especially at 53 and given other metrics I have to track fitness etc, but a friend arranged it and arranged a slight discount (£100) so I went along.
Really insightful! Aside from the VO2 Max figure itself, we all got a report showing exact zone HR thresholds, where we all with from aerobic to anaerobic, fat vs carb fuelling etc. And then a consultation to talk us through it all.
Possibly the best £100 I've spent on my own fitness.
We used these guys: https://myvitalmetrics.com. Sites in London and Manchester. Can't recommend them highly enough.
Really insightful! Aside from the VO2 Max figure itself, we all got a report showing exact zone HR thresholds, where we all with from aerobic to anaerobic, fat vs carb fuelling etc. And then a consultation to talk us through it all.
Possibly the best £100 I've spent on my own fitness.
We used these guys: https://myvitalmetrics.com. Sites in London and Manchester. Can't recommend them highly enough.
TheHeadhunter said:
WestyCarl said:
Defcon5 said:
You must be seriously fit to have a score of 70, good effort
I don't know what sport headhunter does but with that V02max he'd be national level in most masters sports. 
What's you w/kg?
That's an amazing and interesting result 70 at 53 is astonishingly good and would be what you expect from professional cyclists that have kept up a fairly serious level of training.
What I find interesting is that in the final horrible minutes of the test you're burning just over 1000 cal/hr. Makes you realise how optimistic most estimates of calorie expenditure that come from our devices are.
I've considered a lab test, not so much for VO2 max which won't be super impressive because I normally run at 5-10kg over ideal, but for accurate assessment of aerobic capacity and Z2 training zones
If you haven't seen it, Fast After 50 by Joe Friel is a really good synthesis of the issues which face older athletes backed by experience of older elite athletes and data from successful.
TLDR - the ones performing best are those who maintain VO2 max sessions in their training. Late starters can do very well in running. Strength training and rest mandatory.
What I find interesting is that in the final horrible minutes of the test you're burning just over 1000 cal/hr. Makes you realise how optimistic most estimates of calorie expenditure that come from our devices are.
I've considered a lab test, not so much for VO2 max which won't be super impressive because I normally run at 5-10kg over ideal, but for accurate assessment of aerobic capacity and Z2 training zones
If you haven't seen it, Fast After 50 by Joe Friel is a really good synthesis of the issues which face older athletes backed by experience of older elite athletes and data from successful.
TLDR - the ones performing best are those who maintain VO2 max sessions in their training. Late starters can do very well in running. Strength training and rest mandatory.
Yes I’ve read Joe Friel’s book Fast after 50. I turned 50 about the time it came out and really enjoyed it, the topic has become a real passion. The book is very American, but I can get along with that, most of the podcasts I listen to are from the US, and I do think they are a generation ahead of us in longevity.
I’ve adapted most of Joe’s principles in my training, only really minor tweaks, but also supplemented it with a lot of other reading/research, especially with Peter Attia and his work on longevity.
They both make common sense tweaks which some will critique, and again some will find it doesn’t work for them as well, but for me it’s been an easy evolution. I’ve become really really interested in the field, which is where my VO2 test was really pleasing.
My main learnings, and shifts/tweaks in that field have been:
- Maintaining Strength training, 6 days per week. Focussing on holding and where possible increasing lean muscle mass, beneficial in avoiding sarcopenia and benefitting long term health, cognitive performance, avoiding frailty etc.
- Shifting to higher protein for those same reasons. (and even more so, focussing on tailored Amino Acids to counter the reduction in protein synthesis as we get older.) I also get yearly bloodwork and on the back of that have tailored supplements to help. I also use a specific creatine every now and again (a couple of months once or twice a year in low doses to help too)
- introduced Intermittent Fasting (TRE) as a way of life for the last 15 months for wellness, healthspan, longevity reasons, but also for vanity, to keep my bodyfat in single digits and my physique trim and non-50yr old like.
- Focussing on endurance style training, including with strength training - reducing the weight just a little (or not increasing the weight) instead increasing the rep count of each set and focussing on correct movement to avoid injury). I don’t actually do a huge amount of specific VO2 max training (High intensity).
- Listening to my body with preparation, rest and recovery. I’ve incorporated Yoga and Pilates into my week, and always do minimum 5 mins stretching before a resistance workout. I listen to my body and really on things like Whoop to advise on recovery metrics, AND listen to them!
- Moving towards periodised training plans to factor in the correct long-term objectives and overall injury prevention.
On age, it’s not as big a factor as you think (or certainly as I thought). If you look at the charts for VO2 Max level, age doesn’t really play a huge part in to. The bandings only drop slightly for each decade. I’ve never done one before, so I don’t know how mine has dropped/changed over the years. The bandings, and professional sports people can go well into the 80s.
My drivers for doing the test (aside from circumstantial thanks to my friend), was the same as yours oddman - to look at aerobic/anaerobic levels incorporating fuelling, and to learn more about my HR zones to allow me to train more effectively - That is also what I meant by saying it was the best £100 spent and the real value of the test. Fuelling and understanding levels will be the areas I feel I’ll see the improvement.
As for Apple Watch VO2 - wearables will never be able to accurately calculate things like VO2 Max. I wear a Whoop, some elements are really good, but a lot are very approximate. My Whoop calculates my VO2 max as high-40s BUT, it doesn’t really calculate it personally for each wearer, it uses their proprietary algorithm that combines physiological metrics, activity data, and demographic information. You need a specific test to get an accurate level.
I’ve adapted most of Joe’s principles in my training, only really minor tweaks, but also supplemented it with a lot of other reading/research, especially with Peter Attia and his work on longevity.
They both make common sense tweaks which some will critique, and again some will find it doesn’t work for them as well, but for me it’s been an easy evolution. I’ve become really really interested in the field, which is where my VO2 test was really pleasing.
My main learnings, and shifts/tweaks in that field have been:
- Maintaining Strength training, 6 days per week. Focussing on holding and where possible increasing lean muscle mass, beneficial in avoiding sarcopenia and benefitting long term health, cognitive performance, avoiding frailty etc.
- Shifting to higher protein for those same reasons. (and even more so, focussing on tailored Amino Acids to counter the reduction in protein synthesis as we get older.) I also get yearly bloodwork and on the back of that have tailored supplements to help. I also use a specific creatine every now and again (a couple of months once or twice a year in low doses to help too)
- introduced Intermittent Fasting (TRE) as a way of life for the last 15 months for wellness, healthspan, longevity reasons, but also for vanity, to keep my bodyfat in single digits and my physique trim and non-50yr old like.
- Focussing on endurance style training, including with strength training - reducing the weight just a little (or not increasing the weight) instead increasing the rep count of each set and focussing on correct movement to avoid injury). I don’t actually do a huge amount of specific VO2 max training (High intensity).
- Listening to my body with preparation, rest and recovery. I’ve incorporated Yoga and Pilates into my week, and always do minimum 5 mins stretching before a resistance workout. I listen to my body and really on things like Whoop to advise on recovery metrics, AND listen to them!
- Moving towards periodised training plans to factor in the correct long-term objectives and overall injury prevention.
On age, it’s not as big a factor as you think (or certainly as I thought). If you look at the charts for VO2 Max level, age doesn’t really play a huge part in to. The bandings only drop slightly for each decade. I’ve never done one before, so I don’t know how mine has dropped/changed over the years. The bandings, and professional sports people can go well into the 80s.
My drivers for doing the test (aside from circumstantial thanks to my friend), was the same as yours oddman - to look at aerobic/anaerobic levels incorporating fuelling, and to learn more about my HR zones to allow me to train more effectively - That is also what I meant by saying it was the best £100 spent and the real value of the test. Fuelling and understanding levels will be the areas I feel I’ll see the improvement.
As for Apple Watch VO2 - wearables will never be able to accurately calculate things like VO2 Max. I wear a Whoop, some elements are really good, but a lot are very approximate. My Whoop calculates my VO2 max as high-40s BUT, it doesn’t really calculate it personally for each wearer, it uses their proprietary algorithm that combines physiological metrics, activity data, and demographic information. You need a specific test to get an accurate level.
I think people cite age as an excuse for being unfit, of course things slow down, wear out and whatever as we age but mostly, its down to being fat lazy f
kers in a lot of cases.
You are fitter than most of the global population, at 53, fitter than most blokes half your age.
I see relatives who are fit and well, but elderly, they struggle not so much because of the number on their birthday card, more the lack of any physical activity, eating and drinking too much, largely of the wrong stuff and carrying probably 40 pounds of fat or more than is normal. Of course its harder work getting out of your chair.
We go down a particular avenue and the further we go down it, the harder it is to reverse out, and at some point you get stuck through medical issues, we dont see it coming in a lot of cases.
Exercise is hard, especially if you arent used to it, a lot of the population actually actively avoid it, even walking a mile or two, we arent designed to do that, use it or lose it !
I have been down that avenue, not going back, I was putting things down to age but losing 40 odd pound, eating better and exercising more I feel so much better, can run upstairs like I did 20 years ago, can run 5k and its just something I do.
There is greater gratification in being fit and well than any food, booze or sitting on the sofa, its why so many people feel terrible and go to the doc wanting to feel like they used to, and sure they get prescribed stuff, but losing weight and making your body work as its meant to is doing it properly, but its so hard to ditch Netlfix, takeaways and drinking every night if thats your normal, you try telling people and you have the demeanour of an evangelical doorstep god botherer.
Its quite addictive, think I will make myself have a day off the gym today as do need rest, but I know I start to feel wretched now if I havent done anything, the sense of wellbeing after a good run or gym session is amazing.
kers in a lot of cases.You are fitter than most of the global population, at 53, fitter than most blokes half your age.
I see relatives who are fit and well, but elderly, they struggle not so much because of the number on their birthday card, more the lack of any physical activity, eating and drinking too much, largely of the wrong stuff and carrying probably 40 pounds of fat or more than is normal. Of course its harder work getting out of your chair.
We go down a particular avenue and the further we go down it, the harder it is to reverse out, and at some point you get stuck through medical issues, we dont see it coming in a lot of cases.
Exercise is hard, especially if you arent used to it, a lot of the population actually actively avoid it, even walking a mile or two, we arent designed to do that, use it or lose it !
I have been down that avenue, not going back, I was putting things down to age but losing 40 odd pound, eating better and exercising more I feel so much better, can run upstairs like I did 20 years ago, can run 5k and its just something I do.
There is greater gratification in being fit and well than any food, booze or sitting on the sofa, its why so many people feel terrible and go to the doc wanting to feel like they used to, and sure they get prescribed stuff, but losing weight and making your body work as its meant to is doing it properly, but its so hard to ditch Netlfix, takeaways and drinking every night if thats your normal, you try telling people and you have the demeanour of an evangelical doorstep god botherer.
Its quite addictive, think I will make myself have a day off the gym today as do need rest, but I know I start to feel wretched now if I havent done anything, the sense of wellbeing after a good run or gym session is amazing.
TheHeadhunter said:
Middle age health and fitness manifesto
Sounds like I was preaching to the converted. I like my food and wine a bit too much to go down the IF/longevity route but I think there is little harm in following the Attia prescription.Aside from the health benefits are you actually training for anything? I found choosing an event to train for a powerful motivator and a way of planning training. I find periodisation or at least deload/rest weeks absolutely essential to avoid, not necessarily overtraining, but fatigue and mental burnout. I quite enjoy the geekery of planning and reviewing and I'm very much more consistent when I have a plan written down. I find when I'm really on it I come back from the 50% training load week raring to go again.
I was a last to be picked for sports teams at school but always been active as an adult. However I only trained in a structured manner after I was 50, pretty much following a combination of Friel's advice and an 80/20 approach to endurance. I was astonished at how well I responded to structured training. The taper seems like magic. Even though I only learned to swim freestyle at 50, best results are age group 2nd in Olympic distance Tri and 5:17 at half iron distance.
One thing I find frustrating is just how fatiguing strength training can be so struggle to make progress on strength and endurance simultaneously so I've had to fade weights in and out depending on priority of endurance training. I'm a little bit lazy on flexibility but make it a habit to do a 15 minute yoga based stretch after a run. I've been extraordinarily fortunate with lack of injuries.
The tough guys say 'You don't stop because you get old, you get old becuase you stop'. My variation is 'You're going to ache and groan if you don't exercise and you're going to ache and groan if you do.'
The reality is that it doesn t really matter. If you can t convert it into watts then what use is it beyond a number to brag about on a forum? Efficiency is individual and not trainable in that regard.
Michael Hutchinson had a vo2 max of 90 but wasn t even close to being able to do the numbers to beat Wiggins in that era. His book faster explains in great detail why it doesn t really matter. It s just table stakes for anyone decent at endurance sport but isn t the decider. Even now my Garmin vo2 max is superior and I’ve got a CTL of about 28. Pointless garbage.
Michael Hutchinson had a vo2 max of 90 but wasn t even close to being able to do the numbers to beat Wiggins in that era. His book faster explains in great detail why it doesn t really matter. It s just table stakes for anyone decent at endurance sport but isn t the decider. Even now my Garmin vo2 max is superior and I’ve got a CTL of about 28. Pointless garbage.
Edited by okgo on Wednesday 12th November 15:55
okgo said:
The reality is that it doesn t really matter. If you can t convert it into watts then what use is it beyond a number to brag about on a forum? Efficiency is individual and not trainable in that regard.
Michael Hutchinson had a vo2 max of 90 but wasn t even close to being able to do the numbers to beat Wiggins in that era. His book faster explains in great detail why it doesn t really matter. It s just table stakes for anyone decent at endurance sport but isn t the decider. Even now my Garmin vo2 max is superior and I ve got a CTL of about 28. Pointless garbage.
This, got to have the physical capability to make the most of all that oxygen! I'm unfortunately the same, big vo2 but my legs don't make the most of it. Michael Hutchinson had a vo2 max of 90 but wasn t even close to being able to do the numbers to beat Wiggins in that era. His book faster explains in great detail why it doesn t really matter. It s just table stakes for anyone decent at endurance sport but isn t the decider. Even now my Garmin vo2 max is superior and I ve got a CTL of about 28. Pointless garbage.
Edited by okgo on Wednesday 12th November 15:55
Age is a factor, but only *a* factor (it’s also too easy an excuse as Jacko says). The secret to longevity is to keep going, not to start (although starting in middle age is better than not). Peter Attia’s phrase is “If you have the aspiration of kicking ass when you’re 85, you can’t afford to be average when you’re 50.”
But he also says: “I would never want anybody to come away from this thinking, ‘I'm too old to do anything about it.’ I think as long as you're breathing, you have a chance to do something about it.”
If you’ve led a sedentary life until your 50/60th birthday, you are already behind the curve of the guy that has been training since he was 15. Luckily, that second guy was me. Not for reasons of longevity, or science, or even any real knowledge. I was a fat kid. I didn’t want to be a fat kid. So I started training, helped by the fact I got bullied at school and a teacher dragged me to a ‘weight training’ club, primarily to give me confidence. I was like Oddman, last to be picked for a sports team but my teenage years helped me set the foundations that I’m reaping the benefits form now (although I’m not as sports specifically focussed as he is).
I have however focussed more on combatting the fatigue of strength training. Bloodwork, supplements, tailored Amino Acids, lifestyle, diet and periodic use of creatine and don’t let endurance overule strength training (or vice versa).
So for me, it is a case of keeping going, keeping doing what I’ve been doing. As you say, ‘use it or lose it’.
And now as I learn more about the impact on longevity and what that looks like over the next 20/30/40 years, I can tweak it accordingly and realise the huge favour I’ve done myself over the last 35/40yrs. Peter Attia calls it the "Centenarian Decathlon” (training to live to 100) but in particular focusing on quality of life in your last decade; Healthspan not Lifespan. The other proponent of that is Billy Connolly, he’s taking about Brown Bread, but he points out that there is no point adding 10 years onto the end of your life, you want to add it in your 40s when you are ‘shagging like a stallion’, not 85 when you’re pissing the bed and don’t remember you’re own name.
He cites four pillars for longevity. Zone 2, VO2 Max, Strength and Stability. Covers those and you can do no more to aid your own longevity/your own chance of completing the "Centenarian Decathlon”.
I guess that is now ‘what I am training for’. I used to have a big target on the horizon. A sports event, charity event, big walk, cycling holiday, whatever. I still do those, but the desire for longevity has overtaken them *along with* the desire to look good. My bodyfat level is not conducive to optimum sports performance, but looking good in clothes as well as by the pool and on the beach is one of the things I train towards. VO2 Max is merely a theoretic by-product of that
Strength training is arguably the most important to prevent cognitive decline and frailty, but VO2 Max is also very important as the best indicator of cardiorespiratory health (remembering the lack of that is still the biggest killer of human beings). In that it’s very useful, even before considering the HR levels/Fuelling/aerobic-vs-anaerobic aspects.
If you are purely fixated on a narrow part of life and in particular your short-term sports performance in a single particular sport, then VO2 Max is a reasonably important/useful metric, but not the sole determinant of success or even the dominant. It measures your ability to consume oxygen, but ignores what you do with that oxygen. Whether you look scientifically at pVO2 or more broadly at Fractional Utilisation/sustained power, it doesn’t matter. But if you’re not an obsessed ‘jock’ and looking at overall health, fitness and your own longevity, it’s a strong barometer.
But power without the cardiorespiratory strength is no better. One of the guys I did the test with (the guy that organised it) still had a good VO2 Max, mid 50s. He’s 14 years younger than me, but is also measurably stronger on the bike. If we sprint, he’ll win. Even if just a moderate sprint, or a short punchy 2-3min climb. For the first 20km of a ride, he’s the stronger. But, he doesn't have the tank. We've been away three times this year. Long climbs, long flats, he’s tucked in behind me. He’s a faster descender, but after 20km of riding he’s burning matches. We did the 312. He missed the cut off and got diverted onto the 225 and still only came in an hour before me. If you are training purely with cycling in mind, then VO2 max alone is a pointless metric, but it is still relevant.
But of course it’s about balance. I drink, love a negroni and a nice bottle of wine. I also love food which is why intermittent fasting works so well for me. I do cardio 6 days a week and strength training 6 days a week. Have for well over 20 years. It fits with my lifestyle and my focus is only carrying that through for another 20 years. At least.
I love that phrase “'You don't stop because you get old, you get old because you stop’"
But he also says: “I would never want anybody to come away from this thinking, ‘I'm too old to do anything about it.’ I think as long as you're breathing, you have a chance to do something about it.”
If you’ve led a sedentary life until your 50/60th birthday, you are already behind the curve of the guy that has been training since he was 15. Luckily, that second guy was me. Not for reasons of longevity, or science, or even any real knowledge. I was a fat kid. I didn’t want to be a fat kid. So I started training, helped by the fact I got bullied at school and a teacher dragged me to a ‘weight training’ club, primarily to give me confidence. I was like Oddman, last to be picked for a sports team but my teenage years helped me set the foundations that I’m reaping the benefits form now (although I’m not as sports specifically focussed as he is).
I have however focussed more on combatting the fatigue of strength training. Bloodwork, supplements, tailored Amino Acids, lifestyle, diet and periodic use of creatine and don’t let endurance overule strength training (or vice versa).
So for me, it is a case of keeping going, keeping doing what I’ve been doing. As you say, ‘use it or lose it’.
And now as I learn more about the impact on longevity and what that looks like over the next 20/30/40 years, I can tweak it accordingly and realise the huge favour I’ve done myself over the last 35/40yrs. Peter Attia calls it the "Centenarian Decathlon” (training to live to 100) but in particular focusing on quality of life in your last decade; Healthspan not Lifespan. The other proponent of that is Billy Connolly, he’s taking about Brown Bread, but he points out that there is no point adding 10 years onto the end of your life, you want to add it in your 40s when you are ‘shagging like a stallion’, not 85 when you’re pissing the bed and don’t remember you’re own name.
He cites four pillars for longevity. Zone 2, VO2 Max, Strength and Stability. Covers those and you can do no more to aid your own longevity/your own chance of completing the "Centenarian Decathlon”.
I guess that is now ‘what I am training for’. I used to have a big target on the horizon. A sports event, charity event, big walk, cycling holiday, whatever. I still do those, but the desire for longevity has overtaken them *along with* the desire to look good. My bodyfat level is not conducive to optimum sports performance, but looking good in clothes as well as by the pool and on the beach is one of the things I train towards. VO2 Max is merely a theoretic by-product of that
Strength training is arguably the most important to prevent cognitive decline and frailty, but VO2 Max is also very important as the best indicator of cardiorespiratory health (remembering the lack of that is still the biggest killer of human beings). In that it’s very useful, even before considering the HR levels/Fuelling/aerobic-vs-anaerobic aspects.
If you are purely fixated on a narrow part of life and in particular your short-term sports performance in a single particular sport, then VO2 Max is a reasonably important/useful metric, but not the sole determinant of success or even the dominant. It measures your ability to consume oxygen, but ignores what you do with that oxygen. Whether you look scientifically at pVO2 or more broadly at Fractional Utilisation/sustained power, it doesn’t matter. But if you’re not an obsessed ‘jock’ and looking at overall health, fitness and your own longevity, it’s a strong barometer.
But power without the cardiorespiratory strength is no better. One of the guys I did the test with (the guy that organised it) still had a good VO2 Max, mid 50s. He’s 14 years younger than me, but is also measurably stronger on the bike. If we sprint, he’ll win. Even if just a moderate sprint, or a short punchy 2-3min climb. For the first 20km of a ride, he’s the stronger. But, he doesn't have the tank. We've been away three times this year. Long climbs, long flats, he’s tucked in behind me. He’s a faster descender, but after 20km of riding he’s burning matches. We did the 312. He missed the cut off and got diverted onto the 225 and still only came in an hour before me. If you are training purely with cycling in mind, then VO2 max alone is a pointless metric, but it is still relevant.
But of course it’s about balance. I drink, love a negroni and a nice bottle of wine. I also love food which is why intermittent fasting works so well for me. I do cardio 6 days a week and strength training 6 days a week. Have for well over 20 years. It fits with my lifestyle and my focus is only carrying that through for another 20 years. At least.
I love that phrase “'You don't stop because you get old, you get old because you stop’"
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