Why don't we let old people die anymore?
Discussion
I have three elderly relatives. All in their 90s.
Only one seems to have any quality of life. One is in a care home with dementia, one is totally housebound with crippling arthritis and even the one with reasonable health has to rely on children to go shopping.
Every time they get a bit ill, they are whisked into hospital, pumped full of drugs, patched up and returned. (Although returning often takes a week to get a care plan in place).
One has told me they have had enough and are more than ready to shuffle off.
But they all seem to get excellent care if they get a little bit ill.
I'm not sure if I get to my 90s and I am struggling with my health I would want that sort of life.
Only one seems to have any quality of life. One is in a care home with dementia, one is totally housebound with crippling arthritis and even the one with reasonable health has to rely on children to go shopping.
Every time they get a bit ill, they are whisked into hospital, pumped full of drugs, patched up and returned. (Although returning often takes a week to get a care plan in place).
One has told me they have had enough and are more than ready to shuffle off.
But they all seem to get excellent care if they get a little bit ill.
I'm not sure if I get to my 90s and I am struggling with my health I would want that sort of life.
Couldn't agree more. If there's quality of life, then yes of course we should do everything to lengthen it.
But once that has gone then I think you should be allowed to succumb as you see fit. Similar to a "do not resuscitate" order.
My own Mother asked me to kill her if she ever became too unwell to live on her own. I had terrible conversations with her, saying that I couldn't do it. I was grateful when she suddenly died after only 20 hours of pain after suddenly experiencing an internal haemorrhage.
I've seen other friends and family struggle with months or even years of parents being brought back from the brink just to be an empty shell.
But once that has gone then I think you should be allowed to succumb as you see fit. Similar to a "do not resuscitate" order.
My own Mother asked me to kill her if she ever became too unwell to live on her own. I had terrible conversations with her, saying that I couldn't do it. I was grateful when she suddenly died after only 20 hours of pain after suddenly experiencing an internal haemorrhage.
I've seen other friends and family struggle with months or even years of parents being brought back from the brink just to be an empty shell.
I think the harsh reality is the NHS and medical science have done too good a job of keeping people alive, we now have the horrible dilemma of assisted suicide but only near the end of your life if your marbles are intact.
If your marbles aren't intact you're basically stuffed until the grim reaper comes for you.
Can I please book a massive heart attack so I expire before I hit the floor.
If your marbles aren't intact you're basically stuffed until the grim reaper comes for you.
Can I please book a massive heart attack so I expire before I hit the floor.
And just because you have a DNR doesn't mean they'll follow it. Call takers have to give CPR instructions until Choking, Accident, Trauma and Suicide are ruled out, and then assuming it's with the person, otherwise you're getting the whole shebang from the ambulance service, two trucks and a Team Leader to come revive you. No wonder we (the ambulance service) are f
ked.
ked.S100HP said:
And just because you have a DNR doesn't mean they'll follow it. Call takers have to give CPR instructions until Choking, Accident, Trauma and Suicide are ruled out, and then assuming it's with the person, otherwise you're getting the whole shebang from the ambulance service, two trucks and a Team Leader to come revive you. No wonder we (the ambulance service) are fked.
I can imagine its a nightmare these days.ked.Can't win - people whinge when the NHS does nothing for them then whinge when someone *does* manage to get treatment.
It's also amazing how many people get put onto pathways or decline treatment yet miraculously there are apparently some who are getting lots of treatment regardless of prognosis or desire.
Maybe your idea of people wanting to be let go isn't quite as aligned with theirs as you think it is.
It's also amazing how many people get put onto pathways or decline treatment yet miraculously there are apparently some who are getting lots of treatment regardless of prognosis or desire.
Maybe your idea of people wanting to be let go isn't quite as aligned with theirs as you think it is.
Flip side is at 82 my dad had an accident and broke 6 vertebrae, 12 ribs, shoulder, collar bone, hip, shattered his pelvis and punctured his lung, liver and gall bladder, plus a few other bits and bobs. The NHS invested a huge amount of time and effort into him - flew a team of doctors to him who treated him on scene, 8 weeks in ICU, 8 weeks in major trauma unit and 3 months in rehab learning to walk, dress and look after himself again.
I’m certainly glad they didn’t think he was a lost cause. He’s now totally recovered and back to volunteering at Riding for the Disabled looking after horses, playing table tennis and cycling. Looking at him you’d never know, no limp, no mobility issues and still driving his sports car at 84.
The doctors, nurses, assistants, cleaners, porters were all amazing. They all clearly loved their jobs, I don’t see how you can ask them turn that off and expect them to go against every instinct to save life.
Quite different to degenerative diseases, but I’d imagine most people would have thought his quality of life at his age after such an accident would have been terrible.
I’m certainly glad they didn’t think he was a lost cause. He’s now totally recovered and back to volunteering at Riding for the Disabled looking after horses, playing table tennis and cycling. Looking at him you’d never know, no limp, no mobility issues and still driving his sports car at 84.
The doctors, nurses, assistants, cleaners, porters were all amazing. They all clearly loved their jobs, I don’t see how you can ask them turn that off and expect them to go against every instinct to save life.
Quite different to degenerative diseases, but I’d imagine most people would have thought his quality of life at his age after such an accident would have been terrible.
Quite a pertinent thread for me.
My Mum is 84, mainly fit and healthy but about 10 days ago was admitted to hospital with an Aortic Aneurism (well 3 actually). She'd had one for about 5 years but it had recently got a lot worse and also multiplied. As it was an emergency I didn't get to speak to anyone beforehand, but my Mum had a very long conversation with the Surgeon beforehand about whether or not to perform the Op. It was pretty simple - perform Op - probably live. Don't perform Op - definitely die.
Both parties came down on the side of perform Op. It wasn't simple, it took 5+ hours, but it was keyhole.
The Surgeon took the time to have a long conversation with me post the Op, which is something I don't think I'd have been in the mood for after that long doing something that (I assume) would have taken that much concentration. His view was that after talking to my Mum she had sufficient quality of life (she still rides a pushbike into town) for the operation to be worthwhile from his point of view. He did express the sentiment that sometimes during post-op conversations with relatives he wonders why he bothered with the Op - I have no idea if this was genuine, or just said to make me feel better.
I'm very happy that they operated, but also very comfortable that the right conversations took place before the operation. However, I am not 100% convinced that any 5% - 95% conversation would have changed the decision to operate.
My Mum is 84, mainly fit and healthy but about 10 days ago was admitted to hospital with an Aortic Aneurism (well 3 actually). She'd had one for about 5 years but it had recently got a lot worse and also multiplied. As it was an emergency I didn't get to speak to anyone beforehand, but my Mum had a very long conversation with the Surgeon beforehand about whether or not to perform the Op. It was pretty simple - perform Op - probably live. Don't perform Op - definitely die.
Both parties came down on the side of perform Op. It wasn't simple, it took 5+ hours, but it was keyhole.
The Surgeon took the time to have a long conversation with me post the Op, which is something I don't think I'd have been in the mood for after that long doing something that (I assume) would have taken that much concentration. His view was that after talking to my Mum she had sufficient quality of life (she still rides a pushbike into town) for the operation to be worthwhile from his point of view. He did express the sentiment that sometimes during post-op conversations with relatives he wonders why he bothered with the Op - I have no idea if this was genuine, or just said to make me feel better.
I'm very happy that they operated, but also very comfortable that the right conversations took place before the operation. However, I am not 100% convinced that any 5% - 95% conversation would have changed the decision to operate.
Make sure that before it is too late that you and, if you have them, aging parents, have made a Health LPA with your wishes clearly documented. That can include whether, in certain circumstances, you would want an operation or not.
My wife has hers that says that should she get dementia or any other issue that means that her faculties have gone, that she would want to be put out of her misery. Also that if legal at the time she would want help with her death.
Those of us who have seen relatives with dementia will be able to relate to this.
IMO, we are allowing people to live far longer than, in some cases, the people concerned want to live. As appears to be the case in many situations these days, our expectations are greater than they used to be………and yes I am an old fart!
Given that my family don’t have a good history of long life, I will be quite happy to get to 80 although reserve the right to Up that if I am fit and well at that juncture.
My wife has hers that says that should she get dementia or any other issue that means that her faculties have gone, that she would want to be put out of her misery. Also that if legal at the time she would want help with her death.
Those of us who have seen relatives with dementia will be able to relate to this.
IMO, we are allowing people to live far longer than, in some cases, the people concerned want to live. As appears to be the case in many situations these days, our expectations are greater than they used to be………and yes I am an old fart!
Given that my family don’t have a good history of long life, I will be quite happy to get to 80 although reserve the right to Up that if I am fit and well at that juncture.
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