PH Parents - Help Please.
Discussion
Evening all.
I never thought i'd be asking this advice to people on a car forum, but PH knows everything.
I have a little girl, she'll be three in March and will not sleep in any sort of regular pattern. It's driving us all (including her) crazy.
She is up constantly - wants a bottle, cuddle etc. If she goes to bed at say 7pm then we can be up several times an hour to her.
I've read loads about controlled crying etc. but at three is she too old and might just get up?
I'm taking a week off work shortly to try controlled crying, but i'm not sure it's going to work so looking for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Feel free to ask any questions you wish if you think you can help.
David.
I never thought i'd be asking this advice to people on a car forum, but PH knows everything.
I have a little girl, she'll be three in March and will not sleep in any sort of regular pattern. It's driving us all (including her) crazy.
She is up constantly - wants a bottle, cuddle etc. If she goes to bed at say 7pm then we can be up several times an hour to her.
I've read loads about controlled crying etc. but at three is she too old and might just get up?
I'm taking a week off work shortly to try controlled crying, but i'm not sure it's going to work so looking for any advice anyone may care to offer.
Feel free to ask any questions you wish if you think you can help.
David.
Simple question - is she ready for bed at 7pm?
We have an (almost) 2YO and an (almost) 4YO and neither are remotely ready for bed at 7pm. We are now trying to enforce 10pm bedtime for the 4YO and she's taking to it quite well, but our youngest will not settle in bed and falls asleep in the lounge between about 9:30 and 10:30pm; we eventually carry her to bed. It hadn't occured to me that this was a problem until we heard that 'other' people get their children to bed much earlier (although one couple we know drove themselves to distraction trying to enforce a 7pm bedtime).
From personal experience (and this is one of my gripes with my OH) routine is important - bedtime story, teeth brushed, take her to bed - my wife will merrily tell her to go to bed which simply doesn't work. When the children are settled we have a much better night too.
Other personal experience, what does your daughter drink? All 5 of our children drink water with every meal. The only other drinks are a small milkshake each evening for the youngest 2 - which is part of their routine. No squash or anything - it serves no purpose, many are diaretics, some have artificial colours, all are a complete bugger to clean off the carpet. Our older children now actively seek water when they're thirsty, even if they drink squash as well when we're out & about.
We have an (almost) 2YO and an (almost) 4YO and neither are remotely ready for bed at 7pm. We are now trying to enforce 10pm bedtime for the 4YO and she's taking to it quite well, but our youngest will not settle in bed and falls asleep in the lounge between about 9:30 and 10:30pm; we eventually carry her to bed. It hadn't occured to me that this was a problem until we heard that 'other' people get their children to bed much earlier (although one couple we know drove themselves to distraction trying to enforce a 7pm bedtime).
From personal experience (and this is one of my gripes with my OH) routine is important - bedtime story, teeth brushed, take her to bed - my wife will merrily tell her to go to bed which simply doesn't work. When the children are settled we have a much better night too.
Other personal experience, what does your daughter drink? All 5 of our children drink water with every meal. The only other drinks are a small milkshake each evening for the youngest 2 - which is part of their routine. No squash or anything - it serves no purpose, many are diaretics, some have artificial colours, all are a complete bugger to clean off the carpet. Our older children now actively seek water when they're thirsty, even if they drink squash as well when we're out & about.
Some really good advice there, to which I would add: reduce all physical, dietary and aural (i.e. No tv or music) stimulants 1 hour before bedtime. Prior to that, get them tired! Play, run, rough & tumble, fresh air, then slowly wind down with the routine described above. Bed time story then to bed at a time that you see them starting to tire. Once in bed, maintain firm position that it is bed time but remember to reduce your noise as if it seems you're having fun downstairs they'll want to be part if it. Finally, most children grow into normal sleeping patterns. Don't get angry with a sleepless child as they can sense this and it creates more anxiety for them. Hope this helps. Good luck!
No complaints with the advice given. Although ours will usually be in bed a 8, sometimes they'll fall asleep in my arms long before that (if they've had a very active day) or only fading nearer 10 (if they have a long nap during the day).
No nap at all during the day doesn't help either though, because then they get overly tired and are more difficult to get to sleep.
No nap at all during the day doesn't help either though, because then they get overly tired and are more difficult to get to sleep.
Some great advice, glad to know that it's not TOTALLY abnormal.
To answer some questions:
@oldcynic:
She will be ready for bed at 7, sometimes earlier if she hasn't had a sleep during the day. This in itself can be difficult because an hour too late will cause her to be up very late. Also, if she doesn't have a sleep and goes to sleep around 7 then we've seen her treat this as her nap and when this happens and she gets up she can be up until the early hours of the morning; but i think solving one routine will help the other.
She often falls asleep downstairs and we too carry her up to bed, but within the hour she will be half awake crying for her bottle.
I too agree there should be a routine, but there are no manuals for these baby things - but i reckon if we crack this bed time routine we'll all have a much better time together.
WRT to what she drinks, the answer is mostly milk. She does drink water and some diluting juice on occasion but the majority of the time it's milk. At the moment we're taking the bottle from her and giving her the milk in a cup. She only really takes a bottle to go to sleep.
@BlackVanDyke:
This was my thinking with controlled crying - there is nothing to stop her getting up and wandering to play with her toys. The last time she did this she tripped half asleep and is now sporting a lovely black eye; that took some explaining.
@rog007
TV is, or at least can be a problem - more often than not she will fall asleep with the TV on. Something i hate and will need to put a stop to.
@Pints:
Bang on! If she doesn't sleep during the day she is very difficult to manage.
Anyway, I’ve just booked the week commencing 7th February off, the few days of hell will start on the Sunday and continue all the way round to the other Sunday if i need to.
My poor wife is exhausted, every night she ends up in beside her, in a single bed. She's not best pleased.
Thanks again for all the help, it's good to know that I’m not alone in all this. I'll keep you all posted.
David.
An excellent round of responses - and thanks Davie_GLA for your comprehensive reply.
Can I suggest you try shifting to water instead of milk more of the time? Especially overnight - it's possible (and I'm no expert) that she's waking up thirsty not hungry, and milk won't fix that. Also better for the teeth, as I'm sure you don't spend half the night brushing them!
ETA: are there any activities she can do in bed in the 'twilight' of her nightlight (assuming she has one). Our 4YO has a favourite doll with a carry cot she takes to bed with her. She can fuss over 'her baby' whilst she's settling - can even give it a bottle, a cuddle, put it back to bed. Of course her baby has a choice of nightwear etc. She also has to be quiet so as not to wake her baby.
We have no problem with her playing with bears/dolls in bed whilst settling back to sleep, but will intervene if she starts wandering.
Can I suggest you try shifting to water instead of milk more of the time? Especially overnight - it's possible (and I'm no expert) that she's waking up thirsty not hungry, and milk won't fix that. Also better for the teeth, as I'm sure you don't spend half the night brushing them!
ETA: are there any activities she can do in bed in the 'twilight' of her nightlight (assuming she has one). Our 4YO has a favourite doll with a carry cot she takes to bed with her. She can fuss over 'her baby' whilst she's settling - can even give it a bottle, a cuddle, put it back to bed. Of course her baby has a choice of nightwear etc. She also has to be quiet so as not to wake her baby.
We have no problem with her playing with bears/dolls in bed whilst settling back to sleep, but will intervene if she starts wandering.
Edited by oldcynic on Tuesday 25th January 11:35
My stepdaughter used to be a nightmare, quite simply down to her mother letting her do whatever she wanted, now we've all moved in together there is a strict routine in the evenings, bath at 7, when done pj's on and in bed with a book (took a while for her to get that this was not playtime but time to settle down and calm down), tuck in and lights out at 8.
I think in all there were 2 nights she cried herself to sleep, but that's over now and she seems a lot more stable at bedtime, and no longer gets up after she has been put to sleep.
I think in all there were 2 nights she cried herself to sleep, but that's over now and she seems a lot more stable at bedtime, and no longer gets up after she has been put to sleep.
Thanks again.
One thing i did forget was that she isn't the best of eaters, very much a grazer so we were wondering if this might be a problem contributing to her sleeplessness. Is she hungry? It breaks my heart to think she's going to bed hungry.
Have spoken to the wife this morning and she is refusing to give her a bottle during the day, she has had some milk from her cereal at breakfast along with half a banana and a yoghurt. Not too bad.
One thing i did forget was that she isn't the best of eaters, very much a grazer so we were wondering if this might be a problem contributing to her sleeplessness. Is she hungry? It breaks my heart to think she's going to bed hungry.
Have spoken to the wife this morning and she is refusing to give her a bottle during the day, she has had some milk from her cereal at breakfast along with half a banana and a yoghurt. Not too bad.
3 years olds should not need a nap during the day if they are getting the sleep they need during the night.
My 3 year old and 4 yar old both go to bed at 6.30pm and are up just before 7am.
If my 3 year old shows sleepy signs during the day i distract him.
My advise would be bin the bottles immeaditely. Take her shopping and let her choose a "special" beaker for milk before bed time and then bin the bottles, all of them!
Let her have milk only at bed time when she is in her bed clothes. Choose a bed time but make is sensible they really do need quite a bit of sleep!
An hour before bed remind her its bedtime in an hour, then keep reminding her for that hour ir half hour till bed, 15 mins before bed, bathtime now then bed.
When she goes to bed, ensure all toys are tided away so less of an obvious distraction. When she wakes, shoo her back to bed very quietly with the lights off (unscrew the bulb at bedtime if she can reach to light switch)and be firm, no reasoning, no discussions just be firm.
Repeat till understood.
At 3 she has you both wrapped round her little fingers and it is is gonna require some tough love.
My 3 year old and 4 yar old both go to bed at 6.30pm and are up just before 7am.
If my 3 year old shows sleepy signs during the day i distract him.
My advise would be bin the bottles immeaditely. Take her shopping and let her choose a "special" beaker for milk before bed time and then bin the bottles, all of them!
Let her have milk only at bed time when she is in her bed clothes. Choose a bed time but make is sensible they really do need quite a bit of sleep!
An hour before bed remind her its bedtime in an hour, then keep reminding her for that hour ir half hour till bed, 15 mins before bed, bathtime now then bed.
When she goes to bed, ensure all toys are tided away so less of an obvious distraction. When she wakes, shoo her back to bed very quietly with the lights off (unscrew the bulb at bedtime if she can reach to light switch)and be firm, no reasoning, no discussions just be firm.
Repeat till understood.
At 3 she has you both wrapped round her little fingers and it is is gonna require some tough love.
Lemmonie said:
3 years olds should not need a nap during the day if they are getting the sleep they need during the night.
My 3 year old and 4 yar old both go to bed at 6.30pm and are up just before 7am.
If my 3 year old shows sleepy signs during the day i distract him.
My advise would be bin the bottles immeaditely. Take her shopping and let her choose a "special" beaker for milk before bed time and then bin the bottles, all of them!
Let her have milk only at bed time when she is in her bed clothes. Choose a bed time but make is sensible they really do need quite a bit of sleep!
An hour before bed remind her its bedtime in an hour, then keep reminding her for that hour ir half hour till bed, 15 mins before bed, bathtime now then bed.
When she goes to bed, ensure all toys are tided away so less of an obvious distraction. When she wakes, shoo her back to bed very quietly with the lights off (unscrew the bulb at bedtime if she can reach to light switch)and be firm, no reasoning, no discussions just be firm.
Repeat till understood.
At 3 she has you both wrapped round her little fingers and it is is gonna require some tough love.
Thanks Lemmonie - this is the plan. My 3 year old and 4 yar old both go to bed at 6.30pm and are up just before 7am.
If my 3 year old shows sleepy signs during the day i distract him.
My advise would be bin the bottles immeaditely. Take her shopping and let her choose a "special" beaker for milk before bed time and then bin the bottles, all of them!
Let her have milk only at bed time when she is in her bed clothes. Choose a bed time but make is sensible they really do need quite a bit of sleep!
An hour before bed remind her its bedtime in an hour, then keep reminding her for that hour ir half hour till bed, 15 mins before bed, bathtime now then bed.
When she goes to bed, ensure all toys are tided away so less of an obvious distraction. When she wakes, shoo her back to bed very quietly with the lights off (unscrew the bulb at bedtime if she can reach to light switch)and be firm, no reasoning, no discussions just be firm.
Repeat till understood.
At 3 she has you both wrapped round her little fingers and it is is gonna require some tough love.
You're absolutely right, she knows exactly what she's down and how to play us both very effectively. Kids are smart.
Do your kids sleep all night from half 6 til 7? Without disturbance? If Olivia did that i'd be up checking she was still breathing!
Also, if she is having an afternoon nap, ensure it is the same time every day and only for a set period and wake her up if she is still asleep. If she is sleeping too long during the day or too late then she wont sleep soundly at night.
Watch Super Nanny. As already said, bed at a set time, keep returning her to bed, quietly, no chatting, leave and repeat as many times as necessary. Get her up at the same time every day. Keep a routine going.
Does she go to nursery and / or get plenty of exercise and activity during the day? If not then maybe the park or a nice walk to tire her a little.
Watch Super Nanny. As already said, bed at a set time, keep returning her to bed, quietly, no chatting, leave and repeat as many times as necessary. Get her up at the same time every day. Keep a routine going.
Does she go to nursery and / or get plenty of exercise and activity during the day? If not then maybe the park or a nice walk to tire her a little.
I'd like to echo what Lemmonie says. 
At 3 years old the bottles really should go, let her have a small drink from a cup before bed time if needed. At that age they are old enough to know how to play you but also old enough to understand when you lay down some new rules. You may also find that she eats better during the day if she's not been filling herself up with milk. Mine would always get in the habit of asking for drinks during the day when actually they were hungry rather than thirsty but hadn't eaten well for whatever reason. Bananas are apparently good for sleep, so maybe a banana and a cup of milk before her bath might help.
I would give her plenty of warning of approaching bed time as said above, and if she gets out of bed put her straight back in, no lights, no talking, just straight back into bed, tuck in and leave,no drinks, no fuss. Don't forget to reward her when she stays in her bed, perhaps using a chart of some description with a treat at the end of the week.
My youngest has just turned 4. A year ago he was probably occasionally having a nap in the day if he'd had a very hectic time, but not very often. Falling asleep just before dinner was always a nightmare as then he wouldn't eat properly and would subsquently wake in night asking for milk
He now goes to bed at about 7.30pm and wakes at about 7.30am. Everything seems so much better when you've all had an uninterrupted long nights sleep.
Good luck to you all
At 3 years old the bottles really should go, let her have a small drink from a cup before bed time if needed. At that age they are old enough to know how to play you but also old enough to understand when you lay down some new rules. You may also find that she eats better during the day if she's not been filling herself up with milk. Mine would always get in the habit of asking for drinks during the day when actually they were hungry rather than thirsty but hadn't eaten well for whatever reason. Bananas are apparently good for sleep, so maybe a banana and a cup of milk before her bath might help.
I would give her plenty of warning of approaching bed time as said above, and if she gets out of bed put her straight back in, no lights, no talking, just straight back into bed, tuck in and leave,no drinks, no fuss. Don't forget to reward her when she stays in her bed, perhaps using a chart of some description with a treat at the end of the week.
My youngest has just turned 4. A year ago he was probably occasionally having a nap in the day if he'd had a very hectic time, but not very often. Falling asleep just before dinner was always a nightmare as then he wouldn't eat properly and would subsquently wake in night asking for milk
He now goes to bed at about 7.30pm and wakes at about 7.30am. Everything seems so much better when you've all had an uninterrupted long nights sleep.Good luck to you all
My little lad (3) goes to bed pretty much on demand between 7 and 8 and will sleep through the night most nights. It about establishing a routine and then being firm until its understood that bedtime is bedtime, if he wakes its usually to go to the loo or to tell me that hes got a cough (cough is treated by a placebo medication) either way he gets 12 hours sleep as near as damned it and could do with more.
Lemmonie said:
3 years olds should not need a nap during the day if they are getting the sleep they need during the night.
My 3 year old and 4 yar old both go to bed at 6.30pm and are up just before 7am.
If my 3 year old shows sleepy signs during the day i distract him.
My advise would be bin the bottles immeaditely. Take her shopping and let her choose a "special" beaker for milk before bed time and then bin the bottles, all of them!
Let her have milk only at bed time when she is in her bed clothes. Choose a bed time but make is sensible they really do need quite a bit of sleep!
An hour before bed remind her its bedtime in an hour, then keep reminding her for that hour ir half hour till bed, 15 mins before bed, bathtime now then bed.
When she goes to bed, ensure all toys are tided away so less of an obvious distraction. When she wakes, shoo her back to bed very quietly with the lights off (unscrew the bulb at bedtime if she can reach to light switch)and be firm, no reasoning, no discussions just be firm.
Repeat till understood.
At 3 she has you both wrapped round her little fingers and it is is gonna require some tough love.
are you my wife. My 3 year old and 4 yar old both go to bed at 6.30pm and are up just before 7am.
If my 3 year old shows sleepy signs during the day i distract him.
My advise would be bin the bottles immeaditely. Take her shopping and let her choose a "special" beaker for milk before bed time and then bin the bottles, all of them!
Let her have milk only at bed time when she is in her bed clothes. Choose a bed time but make is sensible they really do need quite a bit of sleep!
An hour before bed remind her its bedtime in an hour, then keep reminding her for that hour ir half hour till bed, 15 mins before bed, bathtime now then bed.
When she goes to bed, ensure all toys are tided away so less of an obvious distraction. When she wakes, shoo her back to bed very quietly with the lights off (unscrew the bulb at bedtime if she can reach to light switch)and be firm, no reasoning, no discussions just be firm.
Repeat till understood.
At 3 she has you both wrapped round her little fingers and it is is gonna require some tough love.
op - this is exactly what you need to do.
I know this has been said already but I'm going to reiterate, the bottle has to go!
At 3 they don't need milk anymore as they should be able to get all the iron and calcium they need from food so it is just a comfort thing.
I don't see anything wrong with having a drink of milk in bed however as long as it is in a beaker. My 2 year old still does this.
I don't think a 7pm bedtime is unreasonable but I can understand that if her days are not hugely active that might be to early.
Our routine for both (1 and 2) is telly off about half an hour after dinner, we then all sit and read a book downstairs before going up to bed, doing teeth into pj's etc (bath if needed) then into bed to read another story before sleep. We only read by night light and use the landing light to get dressed by so they calm down.
Very rarely does our 2 year old wake up except for nightmares which are par for the course.
He knows once in bed, he doesn't get out again. Some evenings he does call out for us but a quick tuck in and some reassurance the first time normally works, if it doesn't getting firmer can help. On some nights you know they're not tired though so he is allowed a book in bed to read then he falls asleep.
At 3 they don't need milk anymore as they should be able to get all the iron and calcium they need from food so it is just a comfort thing.
I don't see anything wrong with having a drink of milk in bed however as long as it is in a beaker. My 2 year old still does this.
I don't think a 7pm bedtime is unreasonable but I can understand that if her days are not hugely active that might be to early.
Our routine for both (1 and 2) is telly off about half an hour after dinner, we then all sit and read a book downstairs before going up to bed, doing teeth into pj's etc (bath if needed) then into bed to read another story before sleep. We only read by night light and use the landing light to get dressed by so they calm down.
Very rarely does our 2 year old wake up except for nightmares which are par for the course.
He knows once in bed, he doesn't get out again. Some evenings he does call out for us but a quick tuck in and some reassurance the first time normally works, if it doesn't getting firmer can help. On some nights you know they're not tired though so he is allowed a book in bed to read then he falls asleep.
This is all very encouraging.
She does go to nursery, but the days are dependant on my wife's shifts. And she is only in for half days at a time.
When she's at nursery she is, as you would hope very active both mentally and physically. So by the time she is picked up all she wants to do is sleep. Keeping a toddler awake from what will then be around 1pm until 7pm is hard work and seems unfair. But maybe it's better in the long run.
I guess a lot of this is down to us, me in particular. Since she was a baby i wouldn't(couldn't) put her down - a baby falling asleep on your chest is one of the best feelings in the world, but we seem to be paying for it now.
The stories of your little ones sleeping for 12 hours un-interrupted sound great, this would give me and my wife some much needed time together. I couldn't tell you the last time we slept in our own bed together for a full night.
But no more. I can endure a few nights of hell if it means years of good routine and a healthy, well rested child and family.
Stand by!
D.
She does go to nursery, but the days are dependant on my wife's shifts. And she is only in for half days at a time.
When she's at nursery she is, as you would hope very active both mentally and physically. So by the time she is picked up all she wants to do is sleep. Keeping a toddler awake from what will then be around 1pm until 7pm is hard work and seems unfair. But maybe it's better in the long run.
I guess a lot of this is down to us, me in particular. Since she was a baby i wouldn't(couldn't) put her down - a baby falling asleep on your chest is one of the best feelings in the world, but we seem to be paying for it now.
The stories of your little ones sleeping for 12 hours un-interrupted sound great, this would give me and my wife some much needed time together. I couldn't tell you the last time we slept in our own bed together for a full night.
But no more. I can endure a few nights of hell if it means years of good routine and a healthy, well rested child and family.
Stand by!
D.
BlackVanDyke said:
Controlled crying per se may not work if she's mobile, but just gently and firmly returning her to her bed every single time she comes to the door will. 1-4 nights of hell, then hopefully sorted.
This. Consistency is key. Return her to bed with no eye contact and minimal physical contact (so she doesn't get the reward of attention). It'll mean waiting outside her door for as long as it takes each night but it'll get easier each time. Bill said:
BlackVanDyke said:
Controlled crying per se may not work if she's mobile, but just gently and firmly returning her to her bed every single time she comes to the door will. 1-4 nights of hell, then hopefully sorted.
This. Consistency is key. Return her to bed with no eye contact and minimal physical contact (so she doesn't get the reward of attention). It'll mean waiting outside her door for as long as it takes each night but it'll get easier each time. 
It really will be hell, by the way. She'll cry. Your partner will cry. You'll cry. Giving up and getting pissed will seem like the only possible option. You won't be able to relax or really move away from her door until she settles - you'll need a good book and a big bag of something to snack on. But. If you can do it, it will work, and then you'll be fine. Just think, you'll get your evenings back!Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff