Developing muscle without adding fat?
Discussion
I've read quite few articles etc and not really come up with an answer to this so any help much appreciated. I'm 36 years old 5ft 10 and 12 months ago I weighed about 14 stone. At my annual health assessment (a requirement of our partnership) in May of last year the doctor went through in much detail the risks of carrying this much weight and I resolved to lose 2 to 3 stone. A year later and through diet and running I’m now 11 stone. This has really benefited me, I have much more energy through the working day, sleep much better and am much less stressed. Also I really enjoy running and find it very therapeutic.
The downside is that at 11 stone I now look like I’d blow away in a strong wind and the Mrs says she preferred my look when I was bigger. I’d really like to do some weight training and bulk up my arms, shoulders and legs a bit. However from everything I’ve read weight training is pointless if you’re not going to take in the surplus calories to allow the muscles to build. My concern is that I don’t want to have 3000 calories a day, I don’t want to drop the running since I enjoy it and I certainly don’t want to start putting on fat again and lose all the benefits I’ve gained over the last year.
Is there a way of maintaining a reasonable diet, doing some running and still bulking up a bit or am I trying to marry two conflicting objectives?
The downside is that at 11 stone I now look like I’d blow away in a strong wind and the Mrs says she preferred my look when I was bigger. I’d really like to do some weight training and bulk up my arms, shoulders and legs a bit. However from everything I’ve read weight training is pointless if you’re not going to take in the surplus calories to allow the muscles to build. My concern is that I don’t want to have 3000 calories a day, I don’t want to drop the running since I enjoy it and I certainly don’t want to start putting on fat again and lose all the benefits I’ve gained over the last year.
Is there a way of maintaining a reasonable diet, doing some running and still bulking up a bit or am I trying to marry two conflicting objectives?
According to the Ultimate Diet 2.0 manual, the body isn't very good at doing more than one thing, so you have to eat, to bulk up then eat less to cut the fat in a kind of zigzagging way upwards. Ordinary_chap seems to have this nailed; I need to re-read the details as it's quite complicated to understand and get the best from the system.
Stu R said:
Eat protein. Do weights. Eat protein. Rest.
It's just that simple.
More or less bang on.Train hard and the body will adapt - fact.A good diet will help but there are thousands of triathletes who are able to put on and maintain It's just that simple.
muscle without bulking up.Think about this for a minute..every time you go to a gym you see lads that you know who are getting bigger but they have a crap diet?
You could eat Weetabix everyday,every meal and providing you push yourself the muscle will grow.It's called 'training principle.'
RemainAllHoof said:
According to the Ultimate Diet 2.0 manual, the body isn't very good at doing more than one thing, so you have to eat, to bulk up then eat less to cut the fat in a kind of zigzagging way upwards. Ordinary_chap seems to have this nailed; I need to re-read the details as it's quite complicated to understand and get the best from the system.
Thanks.My experience it isn't likely you'll gain much if any muscle without some additional calories to fuel the growth of muscle. It's a bodybuilding principle most seem to believe. You can gain muscle but be prepared for it to take a long time without steroids if you want to 'lean bulk' i.e. eat well but just slightly more calories than required.
So here's the principle most bodybuilders believe in to gain muscle you should consume more calories and maximise rest periods to allow your body to grow. So for instance if I train my back/biceps on monday I can train other muscle groups but I don't want to do anything else that will eat into the recover window i.e. up to 4 days afterwards so that means during that period I will eat more calories than I need for my BMR.
In reality the bodybuilder train their whole body over 3-4 days during that week and everything else will be setup for recovery.
I actually did something more extreme in that I ate far more than required and the truth of it is, I gained a lot of muscle but also a lot of fat. I'm now cutting down but doing it in a way that will help me keep a lot of muscle.
I went from 11 1/2 stone to 15.5 stone in 5-6 months and about 1 1/2 of that is fat but with a couple months of cutting I will be much larger than I was 7 months ago. As RemainAllHoof has said for most the quickest and most effective way to being much larger is either the zig-zag approach (bulk, cut, bulk, cut etc) or to go all out at gaining weight for 1-2 years then doing a long cut. Personally I can't take any more fat! Heh I don't like the look and the way it makes me feel!
If you want to get the ultimate diet 2.0 you can google for the download link (there's lots of them) but if you enjoy it and everyone does, as its a complete eye opener on how your body works then I'd recommend you buy a copy as a nod to the author who produces huge amounts of brilliant work!
Another influence of mine is Dante who has trained hundreds of bodybuilders over the years and is extremely successful with them. Below is a link to show some of his results;
http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=9478
And some of his thoughts about muscle gain;
Dante said:
PAYING YOUR DUES
This post is for everyone in this forum--its very important to read over--VERY IMPORTANT. Want to know the average trainee that comes to me? He is 35-45 years old and after 10-15 years of lifting weighs 175 to 210lbs. He looks at me as the guy that somehow can pull a bunny out of a hat and make him that 250lb ripped bodybuilder walking the streets.... where he couldnt even get close to that level by himself. He is scrambling around because he doesnt want to get to 50 years old never feeling what it was like to walk thru a crowd and people gawk, stare, and point because he is a damn good bodybuilder. Well what the hell have you been doing all these years?!?!?! You should of put in your f*^&ing dues like the rest of us. These same guys think Im a miracle worker that can somehow add 80lbs of muscle mass on their frame while losing 30lbs of fat while keeping incredibly lean thruout the journey to get there. Well guess what? YOU f
kED UP. Want to know the fastest way to walk around at 250 ripped--THE ABSOLUTELY G'DAMN FASTEST WAY TO GET THERE? TAKE 2 YEARS AND EAT HUGE AMOUNTS OF FOOD, AND TRAIN WITH BRUTALLY HEAVY WEIGHTS, AND BECOME A BIG FAT OFFENSIVE LINEMAN LOOKING GUY AT 330LBS....AND NO IT WONT BE PRETTY...AT ALL. MOST OF ALL DONT DO ANYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY EVEN IMPEDE THE SLIGHTEST IN MUSCLE MASS GAIN. Just eat copious amounts of food (up to 500-600 grams of protein) and bring your bodyweight up the charts which will allow you leverage and strength gains to allow you use the incredible weights you have to use in the gym to accomplish this. Then after being at that level for density reasons for awhile, you can slowly take it down and I mean slowly and most likely have the most muscle mass gain your genetics allowed in that time frame. That is the probably the fastest way in the shortest time to get there. But definitely not the most desirable but truth is truth. Am i recommending that approach--HELL NO, but if we are talking about getting this done as fast as humanly possible then I have to be blunt. Noone wants to look like a fat slob even if it means the end result will be much closer to their ideal. And these guys 35-45 years old want me to keep them pretty boy lean and wave the magic wand and make them into Milos Sarcev after they pretty much just wasted 10-15 years of training.
I dont like using myself for an example but I will here. I started training at about 20 at 137lbs and predominantly spent the next 15 years eating tremendous amounts of food, training with very heavy weights but keeping active so I am at a leaness I personally am satisfied with. I topped out at about 303lbs and but currently hang around 283-288 because thats what I like to be at. I put my dues in here. I might jump in a show if time allows but because of my schedule currently we will have to see how that works out. Mainly Im looking forward to the day I can kind of relax and not push the limits like I have all these years. The 6 meals a day every day, and the war with the logbook along with lugging around 285-300lbs sometimes becomes very tedious. I go to bed at nite thinking exactly what Im going to do and what all this hard work will easily allow myself to do when I decide to crank the dial downward. Cardio will be done 6 times a week for health and bodyfat reasons and that will take priority.
Back to the subject on hand here. So what will all this hard work for the past 15 years allow me to do? I'm in my mid 30's now so for the rest of my 30's and thru my 40' and 50's i can pretty much walk around at 250lbs hard as a rock at a very low bodyfat percentage. Ive set myself up so that will be very very easy. I actually have to do much less than everything I do now (except cardio) to be there. Ill use guys in this forum for examples, Inhuman and massive G are both around 5'9", 5'10" and are offseason 280 to 300. They have spent the time and food consumption and paid their dues to get there. Massive G I believe is mid 30's and Inhuman is early 40's I believe. Both these guys will be able to crank this down and enjoy walking around with full abs, hard as granite with veins everywhere at 240-260lbs. They have set themselves up and paid their dues in their 20's and 30's to do that. You guys that are 35-45 years old who want this but weigh 175-210lbs are playing catchup and are so behind the race its sad. My point of this post is to get guys in their early 20's to think, to get guys who just blew 10 years of training who are in their 30's to think, and to get guys who just blew 10-15 years of training who are in their 40's to think. Am I advising bulking up? No that was a hypothetical example. Im advising you get your freaking head on straight if you want this so bad. That means extreme food intake pronto, with the heaviest weights in good form that you can use progressively, extreme stretching and enough cardio (and bodyfat protocols) that it keeps you at a leaness your satisfied with as you get dramatically larger. This sport isnt unlike a career. You have to set yourself up early so you can be right where you want to be late. Theres alot of you guys 35-45 years old in this forum, some that I even train, that think they want it but really dont have what it takes to go get it. I see it in their workouts they send me (they take the easy comfortable road never pushing the limits) and for those that I dont train I sometimes see it in your posts---you just dont have what it takes. I can only provide a guide to get there, I cant create an inner drive for you.
You have to start thinking in terms of point B from point A. Do you really think that eating 3000 calories with 225 grams of protein and doing the Weider "confusion training principle" to keep your body offguard will somehow magically make your 175lbs into 250lbs of rock granite monstrosity? Every year of training is so damn important. If you just trained for a whole year and only gained 2lbs of muscle mass, you just pretty much wasted a productive year of training--its gone--its lost and you arent getting that year back. Three weeks ago I was contacted by someone in his early 40's who had been lifting for many years, weighed about 170lbs and showed me a picture of Geir Borgan Paulsen and said thats what he wanted to look like and can i get him there?!. Laughable. Geir Borgan Paulsen is 50 years old and looks freaking phenomenal. He is a tiny bit (and i mean every so slightly tiny bit smaller) than he was when he competed in his 30's. Instead of wasting years and years of lifting getting absolutely nowhere, Geir spent his 20's and 30's eating huge amounts of food and training with heavy heavy weights so that he could walk around all thru his 30's, 40's and now 50 years old jacked to the hilt. Not many people have a better front double biceps than Geir no matter what age they are.....here he is http://www.nutritionoutlet.nu/galler...02/borgan.h...
What Im hoping to relay to you slackers and dreamers that are in this forum is that you have to put your time in and pay your dues in this sport. Your 2-3lbs gain a year arent going to get it done so unless you want to get to 55 years old and look back and think "wow besides the people I told and myself, noone even knew I was a bodybuilder and I never made it"....you better get your ass in gear and your head on right and get this done now. Gaining fat is easy but if you never lifted how long would it take for you to gain 80lbs of fat from 175 to 255lbs? Probably a year and you would have to forcefeed yourself to get there. Just think how long it takes to put on 80lbs of muscle mass which is an extremely "hard to come by" commodity. This sport is about extremes--using weights you havent used previously, taking in amounts of food to build greater muscle mass-in amounts you never have done previously, and GETTING THE CARDIO DONE to keep you at an acceptable offseason training bodyfat that keeps you happy. Get your act together and think this all out or quit your complaining and dreaming and take up tennis.
This post is for everyone in this forum--its very important to read over--VERY IMPORTANT. Want to know the average trainee that comes to me? He is 35-45 years old and after 10-15 years of lifting weighs 175 to 210lbs. He looks at me as the guy that somehow can pull a bunny out of a hat and make him that 250lb ripped bodybuilder walking the streets.... where he couldnt even get close to that level by himself. He is scrambling around because he doesnt want to get to 50 years old never feeling what it was like to walk thru a crowd and people gawk, stare, and point because he is a damn good bodybuilder. Well what the hell have you been doing all these years?!?!?! You should of put in your f*^&ing dues like the rest of us. These same guys think Im a miracle worker that can somehow add 80lbs of muscle mass on their frame while losing 30lbs of fat while keeping incredibly lean thruout the journey to get there. Well guess what? YOU f
kED UP. Want to know the fastest way to walk around at 250 ripped--THE ABSOLUTELY G'DAMN FASTEST WAY TO GET THERE? TAKE 2 YEARS AND EAT HUGE AMOUNTS OF FOOD, AND TRAIN WITH BRUTALLY HEAVY WEIGHTS, AND BECOME A BIG FAT OFFENSIVE LINEMAN LOOKING GUY AT 330LBS....AND NO IT WONT BE PRETTY...AT ALL. MOST OF ALL DONT DO ANYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY EVEN IMPEDE THE SLIGHTEST IN MUSCLE MASS GAIN. Just eat copious amounts of food (up to 500-600 grams of protein) and bring your bodyweight up the charts which will allow you leverage and strength gains to allow you use the incredible weights you have to use in the gym to accomplish this. Then after being at that level for density reasons for awhile, you can slowly take it down and I mean slowly and most likely have the most muscle mass gain your genetics allowed in that time frame. That is the probably the fastest way in the shortest time to get there. But definitely not the most desirable but truth is truth. Am i recommending that approach--HELL NO, but if we are talking about getting this done as fast as humanly possible then I have to be blunt. Noone wants to look like a fat slob even if it means the end result will be much closer to their ideal. And these guys 35-45 years old want me to keep them pretty boy lean and wave the magic wand and make them into Milos Sarcev after they pretty much just wasted 10-15 years of training.I dont like using myself for an example but I will here. I started training at about 20 at 137lbs and predominantly spent the next 15 years eating tremendous amounts of food, training with very heavy weights but keeping active so I am at a leaness I personally am satisfied with. I topped out at about 303lbs and but currently hang around 283-288 because thats what I like to be at. I put my dues in here. I might jump in a show if time allows but because of my schedule currently we will have to see how that works out. Mainly Im looking forward to the day I can kind of relax and not push the limits like I have all these years. The 6 meals a day every day, and the war with the logbook along with lugging around 285-300lbs sometimes becomes very tedious. I go to bed at nite thinking exactly what Im going to do and what all this hard work will easily allow myself to do when I decide to crank the dial downward. Cardio will be done 6 times a week for health and bodyfat reasons and that will take priority.
Back to the subject on hand here. So what will all this hard work for the past 15 years allow me to do? I'm in my mid 30's now so for the rest of my 30's and thru my 40' and 50's i can pretty much walk around at 250lbs hard as a rock at a very low bodyfat percentage. Ive set myself up so that will be very very easy. I actually have to do much less than everything I do now (except cardio) to be there. Ill use guys in this forum for examples, Inhuman and massive G are both around 5'9", 5'10" and are offseason 280 to 300. They have spent the time and food consumption and paid their dues to get there. Massive G I believe is mid 30's and Inhuman is early 40's I believe. Both these guys will be able to crank this down and enjoy walking around with full abs, hard as granite with veins everywhere at 240-260lbs. They have set themselves up and paid their dues in their 20's and 30's to do that. You guys that are 35-45 years old who want this but weigh 175-210lbs are playing catchup and are so behind the race its sad. My point of this post is to get guys in their early 20's to think, to get guys who just blew 10 years of training who are in their 30's to think, and to get guys who just blew 10-15 years of training who are in their 40's to think. Am I advising bulking up? No that was a hypothetical example. Im advising you get your freaking head on straight if you want this so bad. That means extreme food intake pronto, with the heaviest weights in good form that you can use progressively, extreme stretching and enough cardio (and bodyfat protocols) that it keeps you at a leaness your satisfied with as you get dramatically larger. This sport isnt unlike a career. You have to set yourself up early so you can be right where you want to be late. Theres alot of you guys 35-45 years old in this forum, some that I even train, that think they want it but really dont have what it takes to go get it. I see it in their workouts they send me (they take the easy comfortable road never pushing the limits) and for those that I dont train I sometimes see it in your posts---you just dont have what it takes. I can only provide a guide to get there, I cant create an inner drive for you.
You have to start thinking in terms of point B from point A. Do you really think that eating 3000 calories with 225 grams of protein and doing the Weider "confusion training principle" to keep your body offguard will somehow magically make your 175lbs into 250lbs of rock granite monstrosity? Every year of training is so damn important. If you just trained for a whole year and only gained 2lbs of muscle mass, you just pretty much wasted a productive year of training--its gone--its lost and you arent getting that year back. Three weeks ago I was contacted by someone in his early 40's who had been lifting for many years, weighed about 170lbs and showed me a picture of Geir Borgan Paulsen and said thats what he wanted to look like and can i get him there?!. Laughable. Geir Borgan Paulsen is 50 years old and looks freaking phenomenal. He is a tiny bit (and i mean every so slightly tiny bit smaller) than he was when he competed in his 30's. Instead of wasting years and years of lifting getting absolutely nowhere, Geir spent his 20's and 30's eating huge amounts of food and training with heavy heavy weights so that he could walk around all thru his 30's, 40's and now 50 years old jacked to the hilt. Not many people have a better front double biceps than Geir no matter what age they are.....here he is http://www.nutritionoutlet.nu/galler...02/borgan.h...
What Im hoping to relay to you slackers and dreamers that are in this forum is that you have to put your time in and pay your dues in this sport. Your 2-3lbs gain a year arent going to get it done so unless you want to get to 55 years old and look back and think "wow besides the people I told and myself, noone even knew I was a bodybuilder and I never made it"....you better get your ass in gear and your head on right and get this done now. Gaining fat is easy but if you never lifted how long would it take for you to gain 80lbs of fat from 175 to 255lbs? Probably a year and you would have to forcefeed yourself to get there. Just think how long it takes to put on 80lbs of muscle mass which is an extremely "hard to come by" commodity. This sport is about extremes--using weights you havent used previously, taking in amounts of food to build greater muscle mass-in amounts you never have done previously, and GETTING THE CARDIO DONE to keep you at an acceptable offseason training bodyfat that keeps you happy. Get your act together and think this all out or quit your complaining and dreaming and take up tennis.
Edited by Ordinary_Chap on Saturday 23 April 08:52
dante said:
There was a study some years back which included 3 groups--elite sumo wrestlers who did no weight training whatsoever, advanced bodybuilders and advanced powerlifters--about 20 in each group. Now there is a lot of variables here but they took the lean muscle mass of each group and divided it by their height in inches. Surprisingly the sumo wrestlers came out well ahead of the powerlifters (2nd) and the bodybuilders (very close 3rd). This is a group who did no weight training at all but engorged themselves with food trying to bring their bodyweight up to dramatic levels. How is a group that is doing no weight training having more muscle mass per inch of height than powerlifters and bodybuilders? For anyone that doubts food is the greatest anabolic in your arsenal, you better get up to speed and on the same page as what my trainees have found out. Gee now what would happen if you actually ate to get dramatically larger like a sumo, but actually weight trained like a powerbuilder (which is what we train like), and also did enough cardio/carb cuttoffs etc to keep bodyfat at bay while doing all this? Are you guys coming around to how I think yet....in how to become the biggest bodybuilder at the quickest rate but keeping leaness on that journey?
This is just food for thought, Dante has been extremely successful as a bodybuilder and coach for many years now and his best friend and also the forum owner 'Skip' was very successful as a bodybuilder (now retired) and is a coach providing the same training.This is the thread this information is from; http://www.intensemuscle.com/showthread.php?t=9658
And if you've got time Skip has produced a set of free video's on training he's provided to the community as a way of saying thanks. If you've got time you'll learn more from this than pretty much anyone else.
http://www.teamskip.net/longevitydvd/
Also if you go to a lifestyle gym asking one of the young NVQ type instructors how to do it is most likely to get you nowhere. I spent years listening to those folks and failing before finding an online community and making some friends then going to train in a backstreet gym.
Good luck anyway!
Lee
This goes against the Dante stuff and most folk's arguments but...
when I was 21 I started lifting for the 1st time, though had been boxing etc. I'd lost a lot of cardio ability and got very heavy at University so started a strict, low carb and often ridiculously low calorie diet (regularly experiencing full blown ketosis) and began running and cycling again, often twice a day; runs built up to 6 to 8 miles, cycling 15 to 30. I also regularly did an evening routine of free squats, sit ups and leg raises building up to 300:100:100 in about 15 minutes.
The weight lifting was erratic to say the least - too light starting weights ('cos the manual said to use them!), too many exercises, too many of those isolation type, and too many sets on too many days - looking back at my note books they look like a fail safe recipe for over training.
In a year I'd lost 5 stone; two years in and I was down 7 stone. But despite this I was much more muscular, much stronger - able to use 1 1/2 times to double the weight I originally could on many exercises. I had pretty much 'ripped' arms, pecs etc. with heads and fibrils all starkly visible, 'though still less defined legs, lower abs and back for some reason. So, to my mind it can be done. Why do I think it worked for me? Because I worked my arse off for those two years with a dedication and vision I wish I could now get back.
when I was 21 I started lifting for the 1st time, though had been boxing etc. I'd lost a lot of cardio ability and got very heavy at University so started a strict, low carb and often ridiculously low calorie diet (regularly experiencing full blown ketosis) and began running and cycling again, often twice a day; runs built up to 6 to 8 miles, cycling 15 to 30. I also regularly did an evening routine of free squats, sit ups and leg raises building up to 300:100:100 in about 15 minutes.
The weight lifting was erratic to say the least - too light starting weights ('cos the manual said to use them!), too many exercises, too many of those isolation type, and too many sets on too many days - looking back at my note books they look like a fail safe recipe for over training.
In a year I'd lost 5 stone; two years in and I was down 7 stone. But despite this I was much more muscular, much stronger - able to use 1 1/2 times to double the weight I originally could on many exercises. I had pretty much 'ripped' arms, pecs etc. with heads and fibrils all starkly visible, 'though still less defined legs, lower abs and back for some reason. So, to my mind it can be done. Why do I think it worked for me? Because I worked my arse off for those two years with a dedication and vision I wish I could now get back.
Lost_BMW said:
This goes against the Dante stuff and most folk's arguments but...
when I was 21 I started lifting for the 1st time, though had been boxing etc. I'd lost a lot of cardio ability and got very heavy at University so started a strict, low carb and often ridiculously low calorie diet (regularly experiencing full blown ketosis) and began running and cycling again, often twice a day; runs built up to 6 to 8 miles, cycling 15 to 30. I also regularly did an evening routine of free squats, sit ups and leg raises building up to 300:100:100 in about 15 minutes.
The weight lifting was erratic to say the least - too light starting weights ('cos the manual said to use them!), too many exercises, too many of those isolation type, and too many sets on too many days - looking back at my note books they look like a fail safe recipe for over training.
In a year I'd lost 5 stone; two years in and I was down 7 stone. But despite this I was much more muscular, much stronger - able to use 1 1/2 times to double the weight I originally could on many exercises. I had pretty much 'ripped' arms, pecs etc. with heads and fibrils all starkly visible, 'though still less defined legs, lower abs and back for some reason. So, to my mind it can be done. Why do I think it worked for me? Because I worked my arse off for those two years with a dedication and vision I wish I could now get back.
The old fashioned way,lol..Unfortunately people today seem to want to circumvent hard work by utilising the latest training fad,diet,routine or whatever.In fact do almost anything towhen I was 21 I started lifting for the 1st time, though had been boxing etc. I'd lost a lot of cardio ability and got very heavy at University so started a strict, low carb and often ridiculously low calorie diet (regularly experiencing full blown ketosis) and began running and cycling again, often twice a day; runs built up to 6 to 8 miles, cycling 15 to 30. I also regularly did an evening routine of free squats, sit ups and leg raises building up to 300:100:100 in about 15 minutes.
The weight lifting was erratic to say the least - too light starting weights ('cos the manual said to use them!), too many exercises, too many of those isolation type, and too many sets on too many days - looking back at my note books they look like a fail safe recipe for over training.
In a year I'd lost 5 stone; two years in and I was down 7 stone. But despite this I was much more muscular, much stronger - able to use 1 1/2 times to double the weight I originally could on many exercises. I had pretty much 'ripped' arms, pecs etc. with heads and fibrils all starkly visible, 'though still less defined legs, lower abs and back for some reason. So, to my mind it can be done. Why do I think it worked for me? Because I worked my arse off for those two years with a dedication and vision I wish I could now get back.
avoid hard work.I've been in the fitness industry for nearly three decades and can honestly say the teenagers/adults I have to motivate here in the
NW are the laziest most clueless bunch I've ever had...been heading this way for a number of years though.
goldblum said:
The old fashioned way,lol..Unfortunately people today seem to want to circumvent hard work by utilising the latest training fad,diet,routine or whatever.In fact do almost anything to
avoid hard work.I've been in the fitness industry for nearly three decades and can honestly say the teenagers/adults I have to motivate here in the
NW are the laziest most clueless bunch I've ever had...been heading this way for a number of years though.
Yep, I reckon that's why jumping to steroids after even months of training seems not uncommon these days.avoid hard work.I've been in the fitness industry for nearly three decades and can honestly say the teenagers/adults I have to motivate here in the
NW are the laziest most clueless bunch I've ever had...been heading this way for a number of years though.
Wonder how many would now bother to load 80lbs of plates, dumbell bars and collars into a couple of bags, caught two buses followed by a 3/4 mile walk to a leisure centre gym (not enough weights or equipment!), trained then walked/bussed home every week like we did when
Lost_BMW said:
goldblum said:
The old fashioned way,lol..Unfortunately people today seem to want to circumvent hard work by utilising the latest training fad,diet,routine or whatever.In fact do almost anything to
avoid hard work.I've been in the fitness industry for nearly three decades and can honestly say the teenagers/adults I have to motivate here in the
NW are the laziest most clueless bunch I've ever had...been heading this way for a number of years though.
Yep, I reckon that's why jumping to steroids after even months of training seems not uncommon these days.avoid hard work.I've been in the fitness industry for nearly three decades and can honestly say the teenagers/adults I have to motivate here in the
NW are the laziest most clueless bunch I've ever had...been heading this way for a number of years though.
Wonder how many would now bother to load 80lbs of plates, dumbell bars and collars into a couple of bags, caught two buses followed by a 3/4 mile walk to a leisure centre gym (not enough weights or equipment!), trained then walked/bussed home every week like we did when
I don't think anything really has changed in the real gyms as opposed to the sort of folk that go to the lifestyle gyms.
I suspect its our perceptions that changes.
I personally love the hard graft and trained so hard a couple weeks ago I was sick and I know stacks of other folks who do similar but then I don't go to a poncy lifestyle gym.
Ordinary_Chap said:
I actually know plenty of folk who do similar. Including a lad that goes to my gym who walks over 8 miles each way.
I don't think anything really has changed in the real gyms as opposed to the sort of folk that go to the lifestyle gyms.
I suspect its our perceptions that changes.
I personally love the hard graft and trained so hard a couple weeks ago I was sick and I know stacks of other folks who do similar but then I don't go to a poncy lifestyle gym.
Ah well, the bias of judging the younger generation through jaundiced eyes! Mea culpa. Does seem to me though that steroid use happens earlier/ younger than it used to?I don't think anything really has changed in the real gyms as opposed to the sort of folk that go to the lifestyle gyms.
I suspect its our perceptions that changes.
I personally love the hard graft and trained so hard a couple weeks ago I was sick and I know stacks of other folks who do similar but then I don't go to a poncy lifestyle gym.
Lost_BMW said:
Ordinary_Chap said:
I actually know plenty of folk who do similar. Including a lad that goes to my gym who walks over 8 miles each way.
I don't think anything really has changed in the real gyms as opposed to the sort of folk that go to the lifestyle gyms.
I suspect its our perceptions that changes.
I personally love the hard graft and trained so hard a couple weeks ago I was sick and I know stacks of other folks who do similar but then I don't go to a poncy lifestyle gym.
Ah well, the bias of judging the younger generation through jaundiced eyes! Mea culpa. Does seem to me though that steroid use happens earlier/ younger than it used to?I don't think anything really has changed in the real gyms as opposed to the sort of folk that go to the lifestyle gyms.
I suspect its our perceptions that changes.
I personally love the hard graft and trained so hard a couple weeks ago I was sick and I know stacks of other folks who do similar but then I don't go to a poncy lifestyle gym.
There are a bunch of hardcore gym goers now in their 40's/50's in my gym and I know at least 3 of them started at 15-17 on gear. Although in all fairness the same understanding wasn't available back then around the health risks.
My gym has a strict no steroids policy in it and the owner hates anyone who takes them as he feels they are only required at pro level (not that he agrees with that practice anyway). He competes in the natural category and is a natural as opposed to the other 90% of them on gear.
Ordinary_Chap said:
I don't know that's so hard to quantify, again I think it's more perception rather than fact.
There are a bunch of hardcore gym goers now in their 40's/50's in my gym and I know at least 3 of them started at 15-17 on gear. Although in all fairness the same understanding wasn't available back then around the health risks.
My gym has a strict no steroids policy in it and the owner hates anyone who takes them as he feels they are only required at pro level (not that he agrees with that practice anyway). He competes in the natural category and is a natural as opposed to the other 90% of them on gear.
Interesting idea. Danger wise, those guys would have been training in the 80s, maybe the 70s, and we did know enough even over here that they weren't to be taken lightly. There are a bunch of hardcore gym goers now in their 40's/50's in my gym and I know at least 3 of them started at 15-17 on gear. Although in all fairness the same understanding wasn't available back then around the health risks.
My gym has a strict no steroids policy in it and the owner hates anyone who takes them as he feels they are only required at pro level (not that he agrees with that practice anyway). He competes in the natural category and is a natural as opposed to the other 90% of them on gear.
There was still the secrecy and public non-acceptance + issues of legality for the 'sources' in the gyms I trained in, but quite a few with direct experience plus all the stuff in books and magazines - pros, well some at least, seemed more open and honest then. Mentzer documented his cycles as did others in books like "Three More Reps", Platz and Bannout admitted using without giving details and we heard stuff about the likes of Ken Waller having health problems. It's strange now, but in magazines in the 80s were loads of ads for shirts with slogans like "Dianobol - Breakfast of Champions"! I wonder if so many lifters would wear these with pride now?
There were probably fewer types around then but the risks from the orals (esp. to liver) seemed well substantiated and the issues with cycles/tapering and Hcgh etc were discussed by people I knew. On top of that there was - and still must be - the uncertainty of knowing just what was what. Even if someone trusted the gym guru (or pusher?) how sure could you be that his supplier, or theirs - how many links in the chain? - knew what the 'maker' had used/was really peddling?
If I knew I could get a bona fida drug sourced by the health professionals and administered and checked by them I'd not be averse to using them as I get older, to compensate for the effects of age, but it just seems like Russian roulette in the current system. In the USA clinics can legally prescribe just for anti-ageing rather than 'actual' (considered to be) medical issues and I've read of some physicians who think all men over 50 should have one cycle a year for health benefits. Can't see it doing anything but staying underground over here.
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