why am i so sensitive to the cars camber settings ?

[fendertele]

So I have been posting on here for a little while including my alignment printouts...

Everything was in the green/in spec except for the rear camber which was out of spec but not by much and the drivers right toe again was in spec but was slightly more toe out than the left side.

when I posted the printouts I was told the differences were so minimal that were talking fractions and so I thought theres no way then that it is the alignment that is causing me such an uncomfortable feeling when driving.

I took it in for a full check and the guy said he needed to shim the rear and loosen/tighten the subframe or something like that.

now my car is all within spec and equal on both sides and It no longer annoys me to drive... it doesn't feel strange to me at the drivers rear anylonger as I always felt like it was lower or a flat tyre.

So it turns out those little fractions out were putting me off driving my car... is there anyone else sensitive to the car being out by so little ?

[GreenV8S]

Honestly, I can't help thinking the majority of the problems you're been reporting have been largely in your head. I haven't seen any coherent description of what you're feeling (only your guesses at what was causing it - which didn't make sense) and I don't think you ever did get an experienced driver familiar with this type of vehicle to test it for you and confirm whether there was anything unusual going on. The sort of geometry changes you're talking about wouldn't normally have any measurable effect on the handling, let alone such a pronounced effect that it would be obvious to the driver.

[Boosted LS1]

There are Gods and there are driving Gods. I'm just saying but I'm not one of them.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

Honestly, I can't help thinking the majority of the problems you're been reporting have been largely in your head. I haven't seen any coherent description of what you're feeling (only your guesses at what was causing it - which didn't make sense) and I don't think you ever did get an experienced driver familiar with this type of vehicle to test it for you and confirm whether there was anything unusual going on. The sort of geometry changes you're talking about wouldn't normally have any measurable effect on the handling, let alone such a pronounced effect that it would be obvious to the driver.

Well unless he tweaked something else while fixing the alignment... then all I can say is it was the rear camber being uneven on both sides because as soon as he got camber equal on both sides I felt the difference right away......

I even put a whole new set of tyres on the car prior to the work being done and it made zero difference... I could feel the issue just being parked up on the road.. through the seat... now the car feels level and much more stable to me.

I'm not ruling out that it may have been whatever it was he had to fix to get the car back into spec... but just that I noticed that it was 100 times better once back in spec..... the front and rear end always felt off from each other and if it wasn't just that camber difference then maybe it was whatever they tweaked that was the main culprit... but I can say my car drives now like all my previous cars.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 7th April 20:52

[fendertele]

work done to get car feeling good and stable... thoughts of what it was if it wasn't the camber alone causing an issue ?

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

I could feel the issue just being parked up on the road.. through the seat

Not a single one of the changes you've described having done during this saga would be apparent when the car was stationary. Whatever else you might think is going on, geometry changes are not the cause.

From some of your comments I have wondered whether you might have some stiction in the suspension preventing the vehicle from returning to center after a roll input, but that's pure speculation because you still haven't described a single symptom that makes any sense to me. For example: what could you 'feel' in the case you mention above? I mean specifically the actual symptoms, not what you think might be the cause.

[fendertele]

As said I have no idea if it was something tweaked or the getting the actual alignment back in spec that made the difference but all I know is I no longer feel whatever it was I felt... that is the work done above.

I'm just curious for future reference if god forbid I ever had something similar happening... it would be a good place to start looking etc..

cheers.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

Not a single one of the changes you've described having done during this saga would be apparent when the car was stationary. Whatever else you might think is going on, geometry changes are not the cause.

From some of your comments I have wondered whether you might have some stiction in the suspension preventing the vehicle from returning to center after a roll input, but that's pure speculation because you still haven't described a single symptom that makes any sense to me. For example: what could you 'feel' in the case you mention above? I mean specifically the actual symptoms, not what you think might be the cause.

I felt like I was leaning backwards towards the rear drivers side when sitting in the seat ever so slightly... when I took corners to the left I felt the drivers side( esp drivers rear) leaning too much in comparison to when I took right turns and the how much the passengers side leant.

[GreenV8S]

If the seat is leaning, you would be able to measure that using a spirit level. Obviously you'd need to be on flat ground to get an absolute measurement, or on the same bit of ground if you're just looking for changes.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

If the seat is leaning, you would be able to measure that using a spirit level. Obviously you'd need to be on flat ground to get an absolute measurement, or on the same bit of ground if you're just looking for changes.

it no longer leans after the work done... unless he adjusted the seat also but never put it down on the work done list.

he also mentioned my car has a very high ride height and is a horrible drive in general very harsh.

what about centering the subframe ? could that have been giving me the squinty feeling I was getting ?

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

he also mentioned my car has a very high ride height and is a horrible drive in general very harsh.

Is it higher or harsher than is normal for this model? If so, I would want to find out why since it suggests there is something non-standard about it.

[fendertele]

fendertele said:

he never mentioned about it being any less normal for the model tbh but then i'm not sure he deals with seat toledos very often... that was just a passing comment he made after driving it... that there was definitely something off and that ride height and was a very harsh ride. which I agree with... I could be driving on bumpy roads and when I went over a bump at the front end the car would want to go one way... then when the rear went over the same bump it would want to go the other way... always having to hold the steering tight and correcting.

Which then got me thinking about an earlier situation.... when Seat had priced the rear axle replacement they also said the shocks would need replacing.... when the guy that shimmed heard this he questioned the girl on seats service desk as to why the shocks needed replacing as he thought it strange and then asked if the shocks are a known fault with my model... the girl didn't know and when I finally got the work done the shocks weren't replaced... maybe he scared them by questioning it.

Having looked at all the alignments I had done up till this point.... the rear end has never been consistent apart from being out.... the camber constantly different, along with the toe.... I know there will be slight variances due to tyre pressure affecting the camber but the toe ?

the day after I got the car and I knew it was out I took it for an alignment and the rear camber was out of spec along with the front caster on drivers side....

[budgie smuggler]

I suppose another possibility is that something was slightly loose, or misaligned, and in the process of removing things to add the shims etc he has inadvertently corrected it.

[fendertele]

budgie smuggler said:

I suppose another possibility is that something was slightly loose, or misaligned, and in the process of removing things to add the shims etc he has inadvertently corrected it.

well that's what I was thinking but then I got thinking what would he be tightening or realigning that previous alignment guys wouldn't also be coming into contact with.... Difference is this guy had get involved with the subframe to centre it which is something the previous alignment guys wouldn't had been anywhere near I would imagine ?

I saw this post on someone having a similar issue with his car and one poster posted this....the bold seems to be true of this car.

A lot of shops these days rely too much on the machines and "within tolerance" excuses to get away with improper alignment. For the most part, they can get away with it since it won't give any obvious signs to the driver (like the unever wear and pull to one direction), but on a small group of cars even if the alignment is "within specs" it won't help.[

This car has never felt right from day one.... I was given every bs excuse for it not driving straight from torque steer to tyre wear when the tyres were less than a fortnight old.

Even when it was aligned and felt slightly better as in it would at least drive straight with the steering held tight centre.... this would only last a short time till a bump or two on the road and it would be out again....

yes the toe would only be out marginally and still within spec but those slight differences of .2 .3 made a difference to the car going in a straight line with the steering wheel held centred or it veering off to the right with the steering wheel held centered.

so i'm guessing all these .2 and .3s of difference side to side might make my car go from being in and driving straight to being out and all over the place even if it's within spec....

I had 1 degree of difference in caster from side to side.... .20 difference in camber side to side.... .6 difference of rear toe side to side and my total toe was almost out of spec... .10 of toe difference side to side at the front

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 7th April 22:47

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 7th April 22:57

[HustleRussell]

Christ, the mystery of the less-than-spectacular handling Seat Toledo again

Sorry mate, all in your head I’m afraid. The symptoms you were perceiving weren’t credible.

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

Christ, the mystery of the less-than-spectacular handling Seat Toledo again

Sorry mate, all in your head I’m afraid. The symptoms you were perceiving weren’t credible.

A lot of shops these days rely too much on the machines and "within tolerance" excuses to get away with improper alignment. For the most part, they can get away with it since it won't give any obvious signs to the driver (like the unever wear and pull to one direction), but on a small group of cars even if the alignment is "within specs" it won't help.

As I mentioned the car is great now... I was just trying to figure out what part of what they did fixed the problem... surely it wasn't just getting the camber equal at the back ? maybe the centering the subframe ? or is it just whenever the front toe isn't bang on 0.5 on both sides...

ill never know all I know is I feel in control of the car now, where as before I didn't as it was all over the place going over bumps and swaying about... I even clipped a wing mirror due to this, i'd never been in any form of accident with any previous cars since I started driving... luckily my wing mirror and the other owners was okay and left it at that.

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 8th April 03:39

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 8th April 03:40

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 8th April 03:51

[PaulKemp]

fendertele said:

So I have been posting on here for a little while including my alignment printouts...

Everything was in the green/in spec except for the rear camber which was out of spec but not by much and the drivers right toe again was in spec but was slightly more toe out than the left side.

when I posted the printouts I was told the differences were so minimal that were talking fractions and so I thought theres no way then that it is the alignment that is causing me such an uncomfortable feeling when driving.

I took it in for a full check and the guy said he needed to shim the rear and loosen/tighten the subframe or something like that.

now my car is all within spec and equal on both sides and It no longer annoys me to drive... it doesn't feel strange to me at the drivers rear anylonger as I always felt like it was lower or a flat tyre.

So it turns out those little fractions out were putting me off driving my car... is there anyone else sensitive to the car being out by so little ?

I am that sensitive to geometry on my cars, the more sporty the car and stiffer the suspension the more you can feel if it’s set up right. What I did learn while having cars 4 wheel aligned is that centre line thrust angle can be used as a compromised when you can’t adjust all the parameters back to factory spec.

[HustleRussell]

fendertele said:

HustleRussell said:

Christ, the mystery of the less-than-spectacular handling Seat Toledo again

Sorry mate, all in your head I’m afraid. The symptoms you were perceiving weren’t credible.

A lot of shops these days rely too much on the machines and "within tolerance" excuses to get away with improper alignment. For the most part, they can get away with it since it won't give any obvious signs to the driver (like the unever wear and pull to one direction), but on a small group of cars even if the alignment is "within specs" it won't help.

I love how you’re now telling me how geometry adjustment works (taught myself how to use Geo equipment and have been setting my own cars up for years)

[kambites]

There's certainly no way geometry issues are going to be detectable when the car is stationary. Having a passenger in the rear seat will have an order of magnitude more effect on the angle the car sits at than even the most extreme rear geometry adjustment available on a normal car, let alone a setup which is within the manufacturer's tolerances.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 8th April 12:47

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

I love how you’re now telling me how geometry adjustment works (taught myself how to use Geo equipment and have been setting my own cars up for years)

I wasn't telling you anything mate, I forgot to mention that was a quote from someone else on another site and I felt It may be relevant to me and to the few others that have cars that don't handle correctly even within spec.. I have no doubt you know your stuff... I seen your profile