Engine very hard to start, then dies
Discussion
Hi guys,
My wife's Alfa Giulietta (1.4t 170 Multiair) has suddenly developed a problem whereby it is almost impossible to start, seemingly taking 5+ seconds of turning over before it catches, or not even starting at all. If you do manage to get it going the revs are very lumpy, even when giving it some throttle. After 5-10 seconds of running the revs will just drop off until it dies; no amount of throttle seems to stop it. The engine management light (unsurprisingly) also comes on.
I initially assumed it was the battery, especially as when it was in for its service this week the garage mentioned that a couple of the cells were dead, and the stop start hasn't worked for a while. I replaced the battery with a Bosch part this morning and this has unfortunately made no difference.
The car has done 39k and has always been serviced according to the book. I've just done some Googling and there seem to be some indications towards failure of the Multiair unit, but before I shell out £700 just for the part I want to be sure I've not missed anything obvious.
Any thoughts or suggestions welcome. Cheers!
My wife's Alfa Giulietta (1.4t 170 Multiair) has suddenly developed a problem whereby it is almost impossible to start, seemingly taking 5+ seconds of turning over before it catches, or not even starting at all. If you do manage to get it going the revs are very lumpy, even when giving it some throttle. After 5-10 seconds of running the revs will just drop off until it dies; no amount of throttle seems to stop it. The engine management light (unsurprisingly) also comes on.
I initially assumed it was the battery, especially as when it was in for its service this week the garage mentioned that a couple of the cells were dead, and the stop start hasn't worked for a while. I replaced the battery with a Bosch part this morning and this has unfortunately made no difference.
The car has done 39k and has always been serviced according to the book. I've just done some Googling and there seem to be some indications towards failure of the Multiair unit, but before I shell out £700 just for the part I want to be sure I've not missed anything obvious.
Any thoughts or suggestions welcome. Cheers!
The symptoms don’t tell us much more than there is something wrong!
I’d start by getting an ODBII reader on it as the ECU will hopefully lead you in the right direction.
If you don’t have one, a basic ELM327 device will cost very little (Mine cost about £15) and is an essential piece of kit for troubleshooting issues.
I’d start by getting an ODBII reader on it as the ECU will hopefully lead you in the right direction.
If you don’t have one, a basic ELM327 device will cost very little (Mine cost about £15) and is an essential piece of kit for troubleshooting issues.
Thanks, yes knowing the codes would definitely be useful, I'll get hold of a reader.
Interestingly, or should that be frighteningly, I've just checked the oil level and it's not even touching the bottom of the dipstick! It was serviced 100 miles ago and I'm guessing they've not put enough in, which given how sensitive the Multiair seems to be I wouldn't be surprised if this could be a factor. In any case, it's very far from ideal! I'll fill it up this afternoon and see what happens...
Interestingly, or should that be frighteningly, I've just checked the oil level and it's not even touching the bottom of the dipstick! It was serviced 100 miles ago and I'm guessing they've not put enough in, which given how sensitive the Multiair seems to be I wouldn't be surprised if this could be a factor. In any case, it's very far from ideal! I'll fill it up this afternoon and see what happens...
littleredrooster said:
So - hang on - it's been into the dealer for a service whilst this was happening and they would have read the codes as part of the service and did nothing about it?
Nope, should clarify, it went for a service this week but this problem wasn't occurring at the time. This has started within 100 miles of the service, which seems more than coincidental to me given the now apparent lack of oil.JustADay said:
Thanks, yes knowing the codes would definitely be useful, I'll get hold of a reader.
Interestingly, or should that be frighteningly, I've just checked the oil level and it's not even touching the bottom of the dipstick! It was serviced 100 miles ago and I'm guessing they've not put enough in, which given how sensitive the Multiair seems to be I wouldn't be surprised if this could be a factor. In any case, it's very far from ideal! I'll fill it up this afternoon and see what happens...
I wouldn't do that. I'd be getting straight back onto whoever serviced it. Interestingly, or should that be frighteningly, I've just checked the oil level and it's not even touching the bottom of the dipstick! It was serviced 100 miles ago and I'm guessing they've not put enough in, which given how sensitive the Multiair seems to be I wouldn't be surprised if this could be a factor. In any case, it's very far from ideal! I'll fill it up this afternoon and see what happens...
What does your service invoice say regarding oil?
It's entirely possible they have not put any in and it is running on the remains of the old oil and is now Donald Ducked.
JustADay said:
The invoice states 5L of 5W-40, which is the correct grade.
How could you prove to the garage that they didn’t fill it properly? Surely it’s your word against theirs?
Well, a quick cursory search online suggests your engine takes 3.5 litres of oil.How could you prove to the garage that they didn’t fill it properly? Surely it’s your word against theirs?
Presumably if they have charged you for a 5 litre pot they gave you the pot with the unused 1.5 litres ?
Well well well... I can confirm the capacity is given as 3.5L, and I managed to get a grand total of 2.5L in before reaching half way up the dipstick. Lo and behold, the engine jumped into life and is now idling happily. The engine seems to pull fine, starts every time, and doesn’t sound different or chuck any smoke out. Hoping we’ve avoided long term damage but who knows...
Anyway, I’ll be going into the garage tomorrow to voice my displeasure. Doubt I’m going to get anywhere as I can’t prove it mind...
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
Anyway, I’ll be going into the garage tomorrow to voice my displeasure. Doubt I’m going to get anywhere as I can’t prove it mind...
Thanks for the suggestions everyone.
I would be amazed if your engine has survived unscathed from running 100 miles with no oil in it.
I'd be getting oil pressure and compression tests done.
I'd also be changing the oil and filter and having the filter examined for it's contents.
And then if any of those tests show anything untoward I'd be looking towards having the engine taking apart and examined.
All of this at the garages expense.
I'd be getting oil pressure and compression tests done.
I'd also be changing the oil and filter and having the filter examined for it's contents.
And then if any of those tests show anything untoward I'd be looking towards having the engine taking apart and examined.
All of this at the garages expense.
Hammer67 said:
I would be amazed if your engine has survived unscathed from running 100 miles with no oil in it.
I'd be getting oil pressure and compression tests done.
I'd also be changing the oil and filter and having the filter examined for it's contents.
And then if any of those tests show anything untoward I'd be looking towards having the engine taking apart and examined.
All of this at the garages expense.
And that, Ladies & Gentlemen is the correct answer.I'd be getting oil pressure and compression tests done.
I'd also be changing the oil and filter and having the filter examined for it's contents.
And then if any of those tests show anything untoward I'd be looking towards having the engine taking apart and examined.
All of this at the garages expense.
Hammer67 said:
I would be amazed if your engine has survived unscathed from running 100 miles with no oil in it.
I'd be getting oil pressure and compression tests done.
I'd also be changing the oil and filter and having the filter examined for it's contents.
And then if any of those tests show anything untoward I'd be looking towards having the engine taking apart and examined.
All of this at the garages expense.
I’ll certainly be pushing for something along these lines, but proving that it’s their fault will be hard I fear.I'd be getting oil pressure and compression tests done.
I'd also be changing the oil and filter and having the filter examined for it's contents.
And then if any of those tests show anything untoward I'd be looking towards having the engine taking apart and examined.
All of this at the garages expense.
I’ve got back from a second run and everything seemed fine until I noticed oil dripping out the bottom of the engine! I’ve managed to trace the leak back to the oil filter, so I’m assuming there is either no gasket/seal or it’s been cross threaded.
It doesn’t leak when the engine is off, only when it’s running, and it’s lost about 500ml after 20 miles, so this roughly ties up with 2L after 100 miles. Hopefully it’s not been stupidly low the whole time in this case.
I’ll go into the garage tomorrow and see what they say. A poorly fitted oil filter is easier to prove than a lack of oil in the first place so I hope I might get somewhere. I’ll update the thread with the outcome tomorrow.
OK, that indicates they probably did fill it with new oil then.
If it has pumped out 2.5 litres of oil (plus what you've noticed today) past the oil filter seal your engine bay and underfloor should be totally covered in oil along with the ground wherever it has been parked overnight.
Has the oil warning light been lit up at all?
If it has pumped out 2.5 litres of oil (plus what you've noticed today) past the oil filter seal your engine bay and underfloor should be totally covered in oil along with the ground wherever it has been parked overnight.
Has the oil warning light been lit up at all?
Hammer67 said:
OK, that indicates they probably did fill it with new oil then.
If it has pumped out 2.5 litres of oil (plus what you've noticed today) past the oil filter seal your engine bay and underfloor should be totally covered in oil along with the ground wherever it has been parked overnight.
Has the oil warning light been lit up at all?
No oil warning light, no.If it has pumped out 2.5 litres of oil (plus what you've noticed today) past the oil filter seal your engine bay and underfloor should be totally covered in oil along with the ground wherever it has been parked overnight.
Has the oil warning light been lit up at all?
The underside is absolutely plastered, front to back. Amazing how far it’s travelled! Strangley there isn’t really much on the drive, not to the point I’d have noticed unless I was looking for it, but then it is parked on dark gravel so is harder to see a slick.
JustADay said:
Hammer67 said:
OK, that indicates they probably did fill it with new oil then.
If it has pumped out 2.5 litres of oil (plus what you've noticed today) past the oil filter seal your engine bay and underfloor should be totally covered in oil along with the ground wherever it has been parked overnight.
Has the oil warning light been lit up at all?
No oil warning light, no.If it has pumped out 2.5 litres of oil (plus what you've noticed today) past the oil filter seal your engine bay and underfloor should be totally covered in oil along with the ground wherever it has been parked overnight.
Has the oil warning light been lit up at all?
The underside is absolutely plastered, front to back. Amazing how far it’s travelled! Strangley there isn’t really much on the drive, not to the point I’d have noticed unless I was looking for it, but then it is parked on dark gravel so is harder to see a slick.
In your shoes I'd still be asking the garage to carry out the tests I mentioned earlier along with a new oil filter and an examination of the contents of the failed oil filter.
Low oil pressure and/or low compression along with a load of swarf in the filter would indicate a shagged engine.
If it had simply run low on oil, it should still run ok and not display the issues you had.
Not a great situation to be in. Good luck with sorting it. Keep us posted.
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