What do I need to do/mark/lock before I take off the head?

[RR76]

I'm taking the cylinder head off, I have to remove the camshafts to get access to the head bolts which means removing the cam sprockets first.

It's dual overhead cams.

I also may put a spare head on if the current head is damaged.

Now I'm stuck with the timing of head/valves and crank when refitting.

Do I need to mark anything on the sprockets and head before I remove the head, do I need to lock the flywheel/crank before I remove the head or because I'm dismantling the head will I just need to time/align both head and crank from scratch when I put the head back on?

[rustednut]

RR76 said:

I'm taking the cylinder head off, I have to remove the camshafts to get access to the head bolts which means removing the cam sprockets first.

It's dual overhead cams.

I also may put a spare head on if the current head is damaged.

Now I'm stuck with the timing of head/valves and crank when refitting.

Do I need to mark anything on the sprockets and head before I remove the head, do I need to lock the flywheel/crank before I remove the head or because I'm dismantling the head will I just need to time/align both head and crank from scratch when I put the head back on?

it would help to know the car/engine in question.

But yes, you need to position the engine correctly to its marks to to rebuild it, so mark it before dismantling to ensure the marks and timing are correct.

The sprockets may be freewheeling type, so it is the camshaft position that matters. But putting the cams in the wrong place and refitting could cause damage.

Will be very expensive in money and time if you get it wrong.

[Evoluzione]

Do we get told what engine this is, or is it a guessing game?

[RR76]

Thanks.

Citroen C4 2006 coupe.

I understand I could destroy the engine if the valves and pistons are not in sync.

But as you said it's the cam positions not necessarily the sprockets position that matter.

So I'm going to struggle if as you said the sprockets are freewheeling type.

I need a walkthrough from when I fitting the cams back in and refitting head.

[Captain Answer]

RR76 said:

Thanks.

Citroen C4 2006 coupe.

I understand I could destroy the engine if the valves and pistons are not in sync.

But as you said it's the cam positions not necessarily the sprockets position that matter.

So I'm going to struggle if as you said the sprockets are freewheeling type.

I need a walkthrough from when I fitting the cams back in and refitting head.

Just done a cam belt change on the 1.4 16v engine in my wifes C4 Coupe.. this video is massively helpful.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qRx30KsYYM

He shows taking off the sprokets but doesnt go as far as showing the head off (as not what he was doing) I didn't take off the head or the sprockets myself, just put allen keys through the top location markers to lock into place and put chalk malks at "10 and 2" for the top rotors relative to the cover behind and put a parallel mark where the wheels were facing one another. For the bottom it looked hard to pin so i punched a small mark at "8, 6 & 4" on the bottom pulley and same on the block then chalk marks over the top

Edited by Captain Answer on Tuesday 14th July 15:27

[RR76]

Captain Answer said:

Just done a cam belt change on the 1.4 16v engine in my wifes C4 Coupe.. this video is massively helpful.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qRx30KsYYM

He shows taking off the sprokets but doesnt go as far as showing the head off (as not what he was doing) I didn't take off the head or the sprockets myself, just put allen keys through the top location markers to lock into place and put chalk malks at "10 and 2" for the top rotors relative to the cover behind and put a parallel mark where the wheels were facing one another. For the bottom it looked hard to pin so i punched a small mark at "8, 6 & 4" on the bottom pulley and same on the block then chalk marks over the top

Edited by Captain Answer on Tuesday 14th July 15:27

That video is great, just what I needed, exactly the same as mine. Thanks.

Another question. I have a spare head that's been sitting for years. If I fit this head onto the car, how clean does it need to be. It has a thin coat of oil that's as good as glued onto to everything inside, the cams, rockers, casing etc. Do I need to remove all this gunk/oil before I use it.

Does it need to be factory clean or will this oil coat not effect to much?

I can imagine any oil residue could upset the balance and add extra friction for example. Ideally it would be factory clean but it could be a long process getting it like that with just a scrubber, brake cleaner and water etc.

I guess I'm trying to cut corners.

[Captain Answer]

RR76 said:

That video is great, just what I needed, exactly the same as mine. Thanks.

Another question. I have a spare head that's been sitting for years. If I fit this head onto the car, how clean does it need to be. It has a thin coat of oil that's as good as glued onto to everything inside, the cams, rockers, casing etc. Do I need to remove all this gunk/oil before I use it.

Does it need to be factory clean or will this oil coat not effect to much?

I can imagine any oil residue could upset the balance and add extra friction for example. Ideally it would be factory clean but it could be a long process getting it like that with just a scrubber, brake cleaner and water etc.

I guess I'm trying to cut corners.

Assuming their is no gunk/residue from old gasket then I'd just wipe it down gently with some clean rags and a bit of petrol and leave that to evaporate off before you fit the new head

Why you stripping down to do the head swap? My wife's needs head gasket doing as its leaking out near one of the oil passageways on the bottom left corner as you face the block, not that it'll get done mind

How you planning on supporting the engine during the work? I just put a trolley jack under as was only doing the timing belt, I didn't have to move the engine up or down like you see him doing there to get the engine mount off, I had enough clearance to get a 3/8th's long handle ratchet and torx bit in.. was a bit harder getting the engine mount back on after tho, should've borrowed my dad's engine crane really but got there in the end

Bottom pulley bolt is 22mm for winding around to the TDC point, think that's the only thing he don't tell you there. 6.5mm drill bit and a 8mm allen key was what I used to lock the top

Tail end of this video is handy too, its not the same engine as whatever it is has a single cam but its very close, he shows a decent shot of how the cam belt tensioner needs to sit and also shows how to top off & bleed coolant system etc (assuming you are dropping the coolant and oil as you are doing the head) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt0Y-G1jHls

Edited by Captain Answer on Wednesday 15th July 15:18

Edited by Captain Answer on Wednesday 15th July 15:19

[RR76]

Captain Answer said:

Assuming their is no gunk/residue from old gasket then I'd just wipe it down gently with some clean rags and a bit of petrol and leave that to evaporate off before you fit the new head

Why you stripping down to do the head swap? My wife's needs head gasket doing as its leaking out near one of the oil passageways on the bottom left corner as you face the block, not that it'll get done mind

How you planning on supporting the engine during the work? I just put a trolley jack under as was only doing the timing belt, I didn't have to move the engine up or down like you see him doing there to get the engine mount off, I had enough clearance to get a 3/8th's long handle ratchet and torx bit in.. was a bit harder getting the engine mount back on after tho, should've borrowed my dad's engine crane really but got there in the end

Bottom pulley bolt is 22mm for winding around to the TDC point, think that's the only thing he don't tell you there. 6.5mm drill bit and a 8mm allen key was what I used to lock the top

Tail end of this video is handy too, its not the same engine as whatever it is has a single cam but its very close, he shows a decent shot of how the cam belt tensioner needs to sit and also shows how to top off & bleed coolant system etc (assuming you are dropping the coolant and oil as you are doing the head) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt0Y-G1jHls

Edited by Captain Answer on Wednesday 15th July 15:18

Edited by Captain Answer on Wednesday 15th July 15:19

Well it's a lot embarrassing but I run it on no oil for a few miles. For a few days a slight noise started I just thought must been the release or wheel bearing starting to go as it was in garage a couple of months ago and they said they topped up the oil also there were no engine lights suggesting low oil. Then one day it just went exponential , grinding steel all of a sudden, I stupidly thought I could make it about 3 miles to the nearest garage like this taking it really easy but I now know this is where I ruined the engine. Live and learn.

It's embarrassing but it's happened. It's a lot better since I put oil in it as you could imagine but there's still a reasonably loud noise from something, I'm guessing a big end bearing or piston ring got minced.

It's a cheap throwaway car so I have nothing to lose by trying to fix it and it just happens the car came with a spare head and brand new head bolts in the boot so I thought why not give it a go.

I used a bottle jack under the sump also I had a scissors jack and an axel stand supporting the engine underneath, it was pretty sturdy.

I could could access the timing belt covers without touching the wheel or wheel trim just take off the engine mount.

There's been no issues with taking anything off or supporting anything but now I'm at the point of no return in that once I take the head off I have to know exactly how to set up the spare head when refitted, valves and crank etc so I don't have another disaster.

It's fun though I like this kind of project.

[Captain Answer]

RR76 said:

Well it's a lot embarrassing but I run it on no oil for a few miles. For a few days a slight noise started I just thought must been the release or wheel bearing starting to go as it was in garage a couple of months ago and they said they topped up the oil also there were no engine lights suggesting low oil. Then one day it just went exponential , grinding steel all of a sudden, I stupidly thought I could make it about 3 miles to the nearest garage like this taking it really easy but I now know this is where I ruined the engine. Live and learn.

It's embarrassing but it's happened. It's a lot better since I put oil in it as you could imagine but there's still a reasonably loud noise from something, I'm guessing a big end bearing or piston ring got minced.

It's a cheap throwaway car so I have nothing to lose by trying to fix it and it just happens the car came with a spare head and brand new head bolts in the boot so I thought why not give it a go.

I used a bottle jack under the sump also I had a scissors jack and an axel stand supporting the engine underneath, it was pretty sturdy.

I could could access the timing belt covers without touching the wheel or wheel trim just take off the engine mount.

There's been no issues with taking anything off or supporting anything but now I'm at the point of no return in that once I take the head off I have to know exactly how to set up the spare head when refitted, valves and crank etc so I don't have another disaster.

It's fun though I like this kind of project.

The oil sensors are apparently garbage on them so not surprised it didn't warn you tbh

Wife's is a throwaway too, usually I wouldn't touch doing a timing belt but on a car that cost less than a decent night out I wasn't too bothered

I took off the wheel and removed the front clips of the wheel arch liner and just folded it back behind the brake disk, give better access on the bottom end then - especially to mark and getting the new timing belt and aux belts on etc

You planning on dropping the sump also at any point? I'd probably be tempted to

Edited by Captain Answer on Wednesday 15th July 16:33

[RR76]

Captain Answer said:

The oil sensors are apparently garbage on them so not surprised it didn't warn you tbh

Wife's is a throwaway too, usually I wouldn't touch doing a timing belt but on a car that cost less than a decent night out I wasn't too bothered

I took off the wheel and removed the front clips of the wheel arch liner and just folded it back behind the brake disk, give better access on the bottom end then - especially to mark and getting the new timing belt and aux belts on etc

You planning on dropping the sump also at any point? I'd probably be tempted to

Edited by Captain Answer on Wednesday 15th July 16:33

In case you didn't know you can get the online Haynes's manual for £5 for this car but I can only find this option through an eBay seller. The £5 is only for a 14 day subscription. But it's a legit deal it's Haynes don't seem to advertise the 14day option.

[Captain Answer]

RR76 said:

In case you didn't know you can get the online Haynes's manual for £5 for this car but I can only find this option through an eBay seller. The £5 is only for a 14 day subscription. But it's a legit deal it's Haynes don't seem to advertise the 14day option.

Thanks for the tip.. not bought a Haynes in a while tbh tend to find you can get guidance on most stuff online now

Curious now tho if you have the Haynes does it not tell you how to wind and lock the engine to TDC for the head to come off??

[RR76]

Captain Answer said:

Thanks for the tip.. not bought a Haynes in a while tbh tend to find you can get guidance on most stuff online now

Curious now tho if you have the Haynes does it not tell you how to wind and lock the engine to TDC for the head to come off??

Well although Haynes's can be usual and it's the correct manual, as usual with Haynes it's a slightly different model to my car so things like certain markings and holes etc are different. Also Haynes have a way of not explaining things all that well leaving you wondering whether your doing things correctly.

So I've just suggested Haynes's and now I'm criticising them at the same time.

They recommend you locking the crank/flywheel but their holes don't match up to mine. I haven't even read the refitting part yet which I should do.

Haynes do have all the torque settings though and other usual info.

[Evoluzione]

Just don't do what some idiot I saw do the other day.
Zero mechanical knowledge and watches a YT vid on it, puts the cam locking tools into both cams then turns the crank over with everything else still connected, breaks the ends off the camshafts....

[RR76]

Evoluzione said:

Just don't do what some idiot I saw do the other day.
Zero mechanical knowledge and watches a YT vid on it, puts the cam locking tools into both cams then turns the crank over with everything else still connected, breaks the ends off the camshafts....

I just marked everything with paint, the crank doesn't need to move so just align the tip half paint marks and I'm hoping that will do. I think though there are two revolutions of the cam to one of the crank though so you could still screw it up?

While your here would you be able to answer my question about the rocker arms, do some of them need replaced etc?