Scottish crash - BBC News
Discussion
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4224915.stm
Please note the comments from the local Head of Road traffic policing.
If link doesn't work, could someone more competent please post it up?
>>> Edited by stackmonkey on Tuesday 1st February 15:16
what he was trying to link to
Burn him! Burn the naysayer heathen!
>> Edited by lanciachris on Tuesday 1st February 15:20
the article said:
They should also be urged to drive carefully and with consideration for all road users and either within the speed limit or the correct conditions for the road.
Burn him! Burn the naysayer heathen!
>> Edited by lanciachris on Tuesday 1st February 15:20
nonegreen said:
What are the odds that the driver had not long passed his test, had not driven many miles with a fully laden car, that was 5+ years old, with saggy suspension, and was sure of his own immortality?
Top post
Hmmmm
Lets not forget four kids are dead.
If a single PHer pops his cloggs there are pages of sympathy. Here we have 4, yes 4, kids dead in a car...the same ages as my son (who's learning to drive) and daughter.
...and the debate is over the fact the the police reckoned speed was a factor. Get real folks.
This road is quite close to me. Yes, an experienced driver may be able to horse up and down it in complete safety - but perhaps if this young driver had been going a bit more easy, then he and his passengers might still be here. Even old Fiestas with 4 folks on board tend not to fall off A-roads unless the driver is going beyond his limits (which incidentally are usually higher than the posted limits).
When cops cliam speed is involved, why get so defensive (and turn in to cold uncaring ba$tards too)? These guys aren't complete numpties. Go to any crash scene and you can get a fair indication of the speed.
I would not be at all surprised if speed was a factor in this case; and as the cops have stated as much, I assume it is with sight of the crash scene.
Speed in itself doesn't kill, but plainly excessive speed in inexpericed hands does.
How about getting off the moral crusade on this one, accept that in all probability if they were going a bit slower they would still be here, and show a bit of sympath for 4 berieved familes.
WB
Without knowing any of the people involved I still feel terribly sad about this, and I wonder what proportion of our annual road fatalities are youngsters having this type of accident.
Rather than start attacking the police for their references to excessive speed, I would rather the effort went into finding ways of protecting (as best we can) young drivers against such tragedies.
I can still remember some of my own rash moments from my early days, so I was lucky. They were not, sadly.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Rather than start attacking the police for their references to excessive speed, I would rather the effort went into finding ways of protecting (as best we can) young drivers against such tragedies.
I can still remember some of my own rash moments from my early days, so I was lucky. They were not, sadly.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
tvrolet said:
When cops cliam speed is involved, why get so defensive (and turn in to cold uncaring ba$tards too)? These guys aren't complete numpties. Go to any crash scene and you can get a fair indication of the speed.
I think the Problem is that the entire road saftey argument has been condensed down to speed is the one and only ptoblem.
a car crashes so speed is blamed. everyone get defensive over speed not being the main cause.
What this thread highlights is that road saftey needs to move away from the single issue argument and look at the whole picture, rather than the current situation where the only road saftery measures are speed cameras and everyone ignores the other issues.
4 kids are dead. through a combination of car, conditions,road, inexperience,bravado, a lack of luck and probably excess speed. we should all be able to learn from it rather than one party comming up with an over simplified explanation ( speed) and the rest of us shouting rubbish as it plainly isnt the only cause.
IMHO G
tvrolet said:
a lot of good stuff
It seems to be an unfortunate fact that TVR drivers (or other PHers) crash because of a combination of bad luck factors conspiring to subjugate their evident driving skills, and are therefore deserving of outpourings of sympathy for damage caused.
It is absolutely shameful that 4 youngsters dying in tragic circumstances, or indeed any other of the other recent accidents involving a vehicle or driver deemed "chavworthy" by the "massif" results in this slightly mocking speculation regarding the age, experience or skills of the driver.
I have a son that age who was involved in an accident (as a passenger) a few months ago which resulted in his mate's Ford Ka landing on its roof. Having seen the car afterwards, it's a miracle that he wasn't badly hurt, never mind killed. Through no fault of his own at all.
I'm sorry, I am not normally into controversial posting because I would rather just ignore stuff I don't like, but I have to say that I find this tendency to sympathise or mock in the same circumstances, when only the type of car or the age of the driver is different, to be totally disgraceful.
Shame on you.
TripleS said:
Without knowing any of the people involved I still feel terribly sad about this, and I wonder what proportion of our annual road fatalities are youngsters having this type of accident.
Rather than start attacking the police for their references to excessive speed, I would rather the effort went into finding ways of protecting (as best we can) young drivers against such tragedies.
I can still remember some of my own rash moments from my early days, so I was lucky. They were not, sadly.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Absolutely spot on Dave.
And one way to do it is not to let your kids loose in a heap of crap like a Fiesta.
This outcome of this crash is typical of so many.
The guy in the Volvo walks away, the people in the Fiesta are dead, every one of them.
Why do we still allow cars like this on the road; they are death traps when they leave the factory brand new.
tvrgit said:
a lot of good stuff
It seems to be an unfortunate fact that TVR drivers (or other PHers) crash because of a combination of bad luck factors conspiring to subjugate their evident driving skills, and are therefore deserving of outpourings of sympathy for damage caused.
It is absolutely shameful that 4 youngsters dying in tragic circumstances, or indeed any other of the other recent accidents involving a vehicle or driver deemed "chavworthy" by the "massif" results in this slightly mocking speculation regarding the age, experience or skills of the driver.
I have a son that age who was involved in an accident (as a passenger) a few months ago which resulted in his mate's Ford Ka landing on its roof. Having seen the car afterwards, it's a miracle that he wasn't badly hurt, never mind killed. Through no fault of his own at all.
I'm sorry, I am not normally into controversial posting because I would rather just ignore stuff I don't like, but I have to say that I find this tendency to sympathise or mock in the same circumstances, when only the type of car or the age of the driver is different, to be totally disgraceful.
Shame on you.
Respect.
this story is very sad
I have 2 boys getting through this stage
I have got them into Saabs now from the bent cornflake packet death traps they were driving initially (nova, Mk1 golf )
His friends have been through many right offs and hairy moments
One of his friends ended up with permenant brain damage after an off in a saxo...
Such a waste
The answer ?
I do not think there is an easy answer that would prevent tragedies like this happening
More training
More trafpols
but at the end of the day unfortunately boys will be boys..
I have 2 boys getting through this stage
I have got them into Saabs now from the bent cornflake packet death traps they were driving initially (nova, Mk1 golf )
His friends have been through many right offs and hairy moments
One of his friends ended up with permenant brain damage after an off in a saxo...
Such a waste
The answer ?
I do not think there is an easy answer that would prevent tragedies like this happening
More training
More trafpols
but at the end of the day unfortunately boys will be boys..
Correct
Shite cars are all they can afford to insure.
So when it goes wrong they come off worst.
Which makes them a bad insurance risk.
Which means that even shitier cars are all they can afford to insure.
And so it goes on.
I mean - £1,600 per annum TPFT premium for a metro worth £700 tops? They're having a laugh...
anyway, back to the point - all the more reason why they deserve a bit more than mocking speculation when it does go wrong - they're only kids FFS.
Shite cars are all they can afford to insure.
So when it goes wrong they come off worst.
Which makes them a bad insurance risk.
Which means that even shitier cars are all they can afford to insure.
And so it goes on.
I mean - £1,600 per annum TPFT premium for a metro worth £700 tops? They're having a laugh...
anyway, back to the point - all the more reason why they deserve a bit more than mocking speculation when it does go wrong - they're only kids FFS.
cop from article said:
"I would implore everyone who can exert influence over young people to join the Pass Plus scheme run by Fife Police to allow them to develop their skills in a controlled environment.
so why isn't pass plus part of the driving test in the first place ?
>> Edited by mattd on Wednesday 2nd February 00:32
I totally agree with the comments about old cars and their lack of safety features which leave them at a huge disadvantage even before considering the weakening effect of wear and tear or the potential of poor repair work during their lifetime.
And of course the insurance merry-go-round is absurd from the point of view of road safety.
What I want to know is why doesn't the Government do something about it? After all they interfere in everything else and chase more than a few safety shadows.
If they 'subsidised' new cars - reducing or removing taxation and so on - the entire car stock of the country could be updated significantly within 2 years. Think of the savings in terms of fuel economy and pollution costs, let alone safety. May even give people more pride in themselves.
If people wish to retain older vehicles as a hobby I would have no problem with that, at least kids and the so called 'excluded' social groups would have a better chance of feeling included and be paying a more reasonable amount of insurance related to the ownership value of the vehicle they could afford.
I think it might reduce government overheads as well.
The trouble is it sounds so conter-intuitive that nobody would consider the idea seriously. But I bet it would be cheaper than all the alternatives they pursue.
On the other hand youngsters will be youngsters. Probably more young girls driving now than young lads - the girls seem to find it easier (though not always easy) to pass their tests, particularly the theory test. I wonder if many of the boys give up and just drive anyway?
Yet the boys still represent the larger numbers of casualties by far, or so it seems. Must be a testosterone thing. Maybe they could be chemically neutered between ages 15 and 25.
Unless there is a war to fight of course ...
And of course the insurance merry-go-round is absurd from the point of view of road safety.
What I want to know is why doesn't the Government do something about it? After all they interfere in everything else and chase more than a few safety shadows.
If they 'subsidised' new cars - reducing or removing taxation and so on - the entire car stock of the country could be updated significantly within 2 years. Think of the savings in terms of fuel economy and pollution costs, let alone safety. May even give people more pride in themselves.
If people wish to retain older vehicles as a hobby I would have no problem with that, at least kids and the so called 'excluded' social groups would have a better chance of feeling included and be paying a more reasonable amount of insurance related to the ownership value of the vehicle they could afford.
I think it might reduce government overheads as well.
The trouble is it sounds so conter-intuitive that nobody would consider the idea seriously. But I bet it would be cheaper than all the alternatives they pursue.
On the other hand youngsters will be youngsters. Probably more young girls driving now than young lads - the girls seem to find it easier (though not always easy) to pass their tests, particularly the theory test. I wonder if many of the boys give up and just drive anyway?
Yet the boys still represent the larger numbers of casualties by far, or so it seems. Must be a testosterone thing. Maybe they could be chemically neutered between ages 15 and 25.
Unless there is a war to fight of course ...
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