Discussion
Liverpool Daily Post
Tuscan crashes in Runcorn, driver and passenger dead at the scene.
My thoughts go out to their families.
Tuscan crashes in Runcorn, driver and passenger dead at the scene.
My thoughts go out to their families.
Bizzare , I know the road, very odd.
If traveling away from liverpoot towards runcorn, Small tight roundabout after a traffic light (30 zone) then changes to a NSL road then into a dual carrigeway until it feeds onto route7.
All fairly straight road for a good WOT thrash but hardly a killer stretch. No idea what the weather was like tho yesterday.
If traveling away from liverpoot towards runcorn, Small tight roundabout after a traffic light (30 zone) then changes to a NSL road then into a dual carrigeway until it feeds onto route7.
All fairly straight road for a good WOT thrash but hardly a killer stretch. No idea what the weather was like tho yesterday.
Tragic. A nice sunday drive turns into death
Obviously that road needs 4 speed cameras at once.
I always find it disappointing how the press prefaces such reports with 'sports car'. It instantly puts the onus of blame upon the driver in the minds of the readers. People think 'sports car, he was going too fast then'.
Obviously that road needs 4 speed cameras at once.
I always find it disappointing how the press prefaces such reports with 'sports car'. It instantly puts the onus of blame upon the driver in the minds of the readers. People think 'sports car, he was going too fast then'.
bruciebabie said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
We don't know anything about the incident. Perhaps there was diesel on the road? ABS won't help that. Traction control? I think you missed the point. Airbags? Airbags won't stop a lamppost coming through the door.
Mind you, I often wonder why they don't improve side protection.
parrot of doom said:
bruciebabie said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
We don't know anything about the incident. Perhaps there was diesel on the road? ABS won't help that. Traction control? I think you missed the point. Airbags? Airbags won't stop a lamppost coming through the door.
Mind you, I often wonder why they don't improve side protection.
If you look at what I said I was not talking about this specific crash. Look through the archives and you will see a lot of TVR death crashes, perhaps one a month, reported here. It's is irrefutable that the death rate would be less if they fitted a bit of everyday technology in the form of traction/ABS/airbags. Not every TVR driver has the skills of an F1 driver.
Just the other night I was driving home in the dark along the slippery (but not wet) backlanes taking it gently in the Cerb. Driveing well within my and the car's limits. Braking nice and early for a bend from a respectable but still sensible speed I changed down smoothly still in a straight line and it snapped sideways. Luckily I was only driving 50% so lifted off the brakes and straightened it. To say I was suprised would be an understatement. This was not very friendly at all and no modern car should do it. My Jag XJR is very forgiving in these conditions which makes it much faster than the Cerb in such a real world environment.
>> Edited by bruciebabie on Monday 14th February 10:37
Very sad news. Similar story in my local news about a bloke in a Ferrari (348 I think) - crashed into a lamp-post and died in hospital, no other cars involved, and it wasn't 'speed related' (although I bet I know some groups that wish it had been).
I don't think it's a lack of driver aids that caused these accidents. If anything (dare I say it) it was driver error, and no matter how you programme a computer it will never account for the mistakes of a human being. In fact, the more you tell people that computers are there to correct their mistakes, the more complacent they get, and the more accidents they have as a result, and the people who didn't need a computer telling them what to do find them intrusive. Those people buy TVRs and Ferraris, and sometimes, tragically, they crash them and die as a result.
I don't think it's a lack of driver aids that caused these accidents. If anything (dare I say it) it was driver error, and no matter how you programme a computer it will never account for the mistakes of a human being. In fact, the more you tell people that computers are there to correct their mistakes, the more complacent they get, and the more accidents they have as a result, and the people who didn't need a computer telling them what to do find them intrusive. Those people buy TVRs and Ferraris, and sometimes, tragically, they crash them and die as a result.
bruciebabie said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
Possibly - but the engineering investment required for these systems is high, and I doubt that TVR could create a business case for any new model including them.
Maybe a good first step would be more thorough development of the ride and handling of the base vehicle...
v8thunder said:
I don't think it's a lack of driver aids that caused these accidents. If anything (dare I say it) it was driver error, and no matter how you programme a computer it will never account for the mistakes of a human being. In fact, the more you tell people that computers are there to correct their mistakes, the more complacent they get, and the more accidents they have as a result, and the people who didn't need a computer telling them what to do find them intrusive. Those people buy TVRs and Ferraris, and sometimes, tragically, they crash them and die as a result.
Maybe in this circumstance, this person could have done with some electronic driver aids, such as ESP or ABS. We don't know, because we don't know the circumstances.
The fact is that systems such as ESP can be massively more effective (in certain conditions) than a human - or why else would ABS, traction control and other systems be banned in F1?
Obviously, there is a massive challenge in a car such as a TVR in calibration - i.e. how not to make it intrusive.
If I had a TVR (or if I still had my Elise), and IF it had ESP, it would be turned on in the wet or in the ice, and turned off in the dry or on a track. Horses for courses.
NDT said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
Possibly - but the engineering investment required for these systems is high, and I doubt that TVR could create a business case for any new model including them.
Maybe a good first step would be more thorough development of the ride and handling of the base vehicle...
Maybe if people didn't drive beyond their capabilities.........
I do feel for the families of the bereaved people but if they were driving too fast and they didn't have the skills to drive in such a way then it's hardly suprising the outcome was death. Common sense really.
Sorry to hear of this accident.
I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction to stop these kind of road deaths. The car was probably travelling quickly to cause 2 deaths, they're not made of cardboard after all. So maybe the driver was at fault, but drivers make mistakes every day. IMO Road furniture was the killer here, the driver or a car fault/blowout possibly contributed to the deaths. But it was hitting the lamp post that did them in.
Lamp posts seem to be responsible for many many injuries and deaths. Can't they make collapsing lamp posts/Lamp posts with airbags? Even if, after a crash you had to pay for a new lamp post it is better than the alternative (your surviving family paying).
Ted - looking forward to safety aids on new model TVRs, they can only help, and airbags never affected how a car drives.
I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction to stop these kind of road deaths. The car was probably travelling quickly to cause 2 deaths, they're not made of cardboard after all. So maybe the driver was at fault, but drivers make mistakes every day. IMO Road furniture was the killer here, the driver or a car fault/blowout possibly contributed to the deaths. But it was hitting the lamp post that did them in.
Lamp posts seem to be responsible for many many injuries and deaths. Can't they make collapsing lamp posts/Lamp posts with airbags? Even if, after a crash you had to pay for a new lamp post it is better than the alternative (your surviving family paying).
Ted - looking forward to safety aids on new model TVRs, they can only help, and airbags never affected how a car drives.
beanbag said:
bruciebabie said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
Possibly - but the engineering investment required for these systems is high, and I doubt that TVR could create a business case for any new model including them.
Maybe a good first step would be more thorough development of the ride and handling of the base vehicle...
Maybe if people didn't drive beyond their capabilities.........
I do feel for the families of the bereaved people but if they were driving too fast and they didn't have the skills to drive in such a way then it's hardly suprising the outcome was death. Common sense really.
Indeed, and if bikes do account for more deaths per mile is anyone going to look at compulsary fitting of traction control or abs to them (if that's even safely possible)? If people either buy a TVR or a bike the reason is likely to be that they enjoy the driving / riding. I for one wouldn;'t buy a TVR that came with more electronics than Dixons.
bruciebabie said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
It's always terrible to hear news like this but I'm not sure I can agree with the comments about driver aides. You only have to look on an S2000 forum to realise that these things happen in the most tooled-up cars. It's far more likely to have been a combination of road conditions, driver error and rear wheel drive than a lack of aides.
Not that I'm saying that aides don't have their benefits but I do wonder whether filling a car with toys really is the answer. The more aides you have the more you're likely to push the car (and your) limits IMHO because you expect the computer to compensate. Better to drive defensively (not necessarily more slowly) and be more aware of what is going on.
venom said:
bruciebabie said:
If TVR fitted ABS, traction and airbags we would get less of these stories. They have become a regulsr feature of Pistonheads. It is such a waste, it must be terrible for the friends and families.
It's always terrible to hear news like this but I'm not sure I can agree with the comments about driver aides. You only have to look on an S2000 forum to realise that these things happen in the most tooled-up cars. It's far more likely to have been a combination of road conditions, driver error and rear wheel drive than a lack of aides.
Not that I'm saying that aides don't have their benefits but I do wonder whether filling a car with toys really is the answer. The more aides you have the more you're likely to push the car (and your) limits IMHO because you expect the computer to compensate. Better to drive defensively (not necessarily more slowly) and be more aware of what is going on.
You're right about how many people seem to stack S2000's, but survivability seems to be very good. There have been some horrendous accidents but I'm not aware of any fatalities (although I'm sure there have been some).
I agree that driver aids won't stop accidents, but they do improve your chances of living to tell the tale.
Just my opinion, Paul
>> Edited by Paul 2000 on Monday 14th February 12:21
Gazboy said:
Not going into a anti-TVR tirade, but just making a point:
Has there been more deaths, per unit sold, in single vehicle crashes, in a TVR compared to other makes?
Firstly, I feel for anyone connected with these two people, it is a waste of two lives and a lot of heartache for their families.
Obviously I am not going to go into anti-TVR mode either(I have one) but at the risk of stating the bleeding obvious just because you can write out a cheque for a TVR does not automatically make you a good enough driver to drive one.
I have read lots of posts on here where someone is looking for a wheel rim or wishbone because they " just missed the apex and clipped a kerb". This is invariably followed by a deluge of people posting "oh hard luck mate sorry to hear that" type posts. What they ought to say is slow down until you learn to drive and then speed up when you are up to it. If you drive at the right speed for any given situation most accidents can be avoided. There are still ocassions when you can get caught out without pilot error but certainly not as many as you hear about on here. Not saying this about this particular accident but accidents in fast cars in general.
With cars getting faster all the time, is there now a case for a driving license for cars with an above average power to weight ratio(as opposed to power output)?
Traction control, cost minimal - about £300 per unit when in production (individual cars can have it for £5-600)- so not huge costs involved - summary - Get it done, Nikolai!
ABS - I reckon the jury's out on this one - it helps you to steer in an emergency braking situation, but you would need training in order to stop you from simply jumping on the brakes and hoping for the best - my only experience of emergency braking in a TVR led to me ending upside down in a field, by braking on a dry straight road in the middle of summer - would ABS have helped me in that situation? I don't know. i would probably feel safer with it, but I'm not sure it would actually help.
Plus, I think this needs to be weighed against the fact that TVRs teach you to treat speed, grip, brakes and roads with a healthy degree of respect and circumspection - far more valuable as safety tools, I reckon....
Airbags? Why? They were only invented to prevent halfwit Americans who never wear seat belts, fom nutting the windscreen on their way to cracking their skulls on the road. Waste of money IMHO! TVR should fit 4-point harnesses instead, so track days are even more fun!
>> Edited by nubbin on Monday 14th February 12:20
ABS - I reckon the jury's out on this one - it helps you to steer in an emergency braking situation, but you would need training in order to stop you from simply jumping on the brakes and hoping for the best - my only experience of emergency braking in a TVR led to me ending upside down in a field, by braking on a dry straight road in the middle of summer - would ABS have helped me in that situation? I don't know. i would probably feel safer with it, but I'm not sure it would actually help.
Plus, I think this needs to be weighed against the fact that TVRs teach you to treat speed, grip, brakes and roads with a healthy degree of respect and circumspection - far more valuable as safety tools, I reckon....
Airbags? Why? They were only invented to prevent halfwit Americans who never wear seat belts, fom nutting the windscreen on their way to cracking their skulls on the road. Waste of money IMHO! TVR should fit 4-point harnesses instead, so track days are even more fun!
>> Edited by nubbin on Monday 14th February 12:20
Gassing Station | General Gassing [Archive] | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff