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Discussion
Shock cut in speed limits
By David Williams, Motoring Editor, Evening Standard
Speed limits across Britain are to be slashed in a bid to reduce the number of road deaths and injuries.
Ministers plan to cut maximum limits in residential areas from 30mph to 20mph. On other roads, limits could go from 60mph to as low as 40mph, or from 40mph to 30mph.
Local authorities will enforce the new policy with more speed cameras and more traffic calming.
Nine people are killed and more than 100 seriously injured each day on British roads.
Tony Blair has pledged to cut these statistics by 40 per cent by 2010. Ministers believe the best way to achieve the target is a wholesale review of speed limits, starting next year.
It is the first overhaul of the system which has grown piecemeal as the road network has expanded since the Fifties.
Under the old regulations, borough engineers set limits largely according to the speed travelled by 85 per cent of vehicles on a given road. Safety experts say this is responsible for a high level of accidents and a culture of speed.
Now engineers will be expected to set limits reflecting the Government's concern over high accident rates, speeding and its wish to encourage more people to walk and cycle without being "bullied" by motorised traffic.
In London, hundreds of residential roads will have new 20mph signs, backed by measures such as road humps, chicanes and pinch-points. Hundreds of "mixed" roads with shops, schools or hospitals as well as homes may get the same strict limits.
Roads in rural areas - where there are more speedrelated accidents - will also be reclassified. But key distributor roads intended to speed large numbers of drivers in and out of London are unlikely to be targeted. It is expected there will be no change in the motorway speed limit of 70mph.
The new guidance is being announced ahead of a debate on speed in the Commons tomorrow. Robert Gifford, of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, said: "This is not anti-car. We need to be more creative and responsive to the problem that exist on the roads.
"Old methods of establishing speed limits are discredited and faulty. They were a result of the car and roads obsession of the late 1980s.
"By smoothing out traffic speeds, motorists should benefit from less congestion - as we see on regulated sections of the M25."
By David Williams, Motoring Editor, Evening Standard
Speed limits across Britain are to be slashed in a bid to reduce the number of road deaths and injuries.
Ministers plan to cut maximum limits in residential areas from 30mph to 20mph. On other roads, limits could go from 60mph to as low as 40mph, or from 40mph to 30mph.
Local authorities will enforce the new policy with more speed cameras and more traffic calming.
Nine people are killed and more than 100 seriously injured each day on British roads.
Tony Blair has pledged to cut these statistics by 40 per cent by 2010. Ministers believe the best way to achieve the target is a wholesale review of speed limits, starting next year.
It is the first overhaul of the system which has grown piecemeal as the road network has expanded since the Fifties.
Under the old regulations, borough engineers set limits largely according to the speed travelled by 85 per cent of vehicles on a given road. Safety experts say this is responsible for a high level of accidents and a culture of speed.
Now engineers will be expected to set limits reflecting the Government's concern over high accident rates, speeding and its wish to encourage more people to walk and cycle without being "bullied" by motorised traffic.
In London, hundreds of residential roads will have new 20mph signs, backed by measures such as road humps, chicanes and pinch-points. Hundreds of "mixed" roads with shops, schools or hospitals as well as homes may get the same strict limits.
Roads in rural areas - where there are more speedrelated accidents - will also be reclassified. But key distributor roads intended to speed large numbers of drivers in and out of London are unlikely to be targeted. It is expected there will be no change in the motorway speed limit of 70mph.
The new guidance is being announced ahead of a debate on speed in the Commons tomorrow. Robert Gifford, of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, said: "This is not anti-car. We need to be more creative and responsive to the problem that exist on the roads.
"Old methods of establishing speed limits are discredited and faulty. They were a result of the car and roads obsession of the late 1980s.
"By smoothing out traffic speeds, motorists should benefit from less congestion - as we see on regulated sections of the M25."
More uneducated PC bollox.
30 to 20mph in built up housing estates IS a sensible idea and I have no issue with that.
But dropping some limits from 60 to 40? Jeez, who comes up with this shit?
[cynical mode]
Probably been done so that they can get more speeding fines
[/cynical mode]
Always amuses me... transport secretaries never drive... education secretaries have never been to Uni (so how can they decide what is best for students?)...
30 to 20mph in built up housing estates IS a sensible idea and I have no issue with that.
But dropping some limits from 60 to 40? Jeez, who comes up with this shit?
[cynical mode]
Probably been done so that they can get more speeding fines
[/cynical mode]
Always amuses me... transport secretaries never drive... education secretaries have never been to Uni (so how can they decide what is best for students?)...
This all depends on where they do it. I have absolutely no problem with speed limits. I have a huge problem with speed limits that are ridiculous.
Obviously low speed limits cause frustration. Frustration causes accidents.
20mph in Housing Estates is perfectly reasonable IMHO. I agree with Podie though that 60 down to 40 way out in the country - given modern cars and their ability to stop on a sixpence in comparison to when the limit was set all those years ago - is bollox.
But there ARE some outlying communities that have an NSL right through their main street (really!) and those probably should be 40mph.
So its probably a good thing to do. Its just that none of use trust our current crop of idiot road planners to do a proper job if it.
Obviously low speed limits cause frustration. Frustration causes accidents.
20mph in Housing Estates is perfectly reasonable IMHO. I agree with Podie though that 60 down to 40 way out in the country - given modern cars and their ability to stop on a sixpence in comparison to when the limit was set all those years ago - is bollox.
But there ARE some outlying communities that have an NSL right through their main street (really!) and those probably should be 40mph.
So its probably a good thing to do. Its just that none of use trust our current crop of idiot road planners to do a proper job if it.
Load of &rse! All this will lead to is more tickets, more bans and more people just ignoring the limits.
Either that or the sheep mentality will kick in and you wont be able to go anywhere above 40. How long before the man with the red flag makes a comeback? Its happening already - peopel are too dimwitted to travel at more than 40 along roads that are comfortable at 90+ - how many times have to gotten stuck in a q of traffic behind a smallcar (
), with no-one prepared to overtake, even on mile long straights .....
Pathetic.
Either that or the sheep mentality will kick in and you wont be able to go anywhere above 40. How long before the man with the red flag makes a comeback? Its happening already - peopel are too dimwitted to travel at more than 40 along roads that are comfortable at 90+ - how many times have to gotten stuck in a q of traffic behind a smallcar (
), with no-one prepared to overtake, even on mile long straights ..... Pathetic.
I have to say that this sounds like another cynical exercise by our glorious government to find ways to rip off the driver even more.
It's an easy propoganda exercise: take a fact most reasonable people would agree with - ie, drop the limit from 30 to 20 in certain areas, and tie this to half truths like "dangerous roads, high death rates etc" (in fact our roads are already some of the safest in the world).
Then the clever bit is to circumvent local democracy and informed decision making by implying that the locals don't know as much about the problem as the "road traffic experts" and as such their decisions MUST be wrong headed. Et Voila! you have a method, motive and justification for doing whatever you feel like in the name of revenue generation, oops sorry, safety.
There was another one of these this morning with the government announcing 130millions for the alleviation of "pinch points" to aid in congested areas.
Those amongst you not afflicted with alzheimers will remember that it wasn't so long ago that Red Ken in London and other labour controlled local authorities were deliberately tinkeing with traffic light phasing and road junction layouts with the specific intention of creating pinch points, thereby increasing congestion so that we'd either
A: be forced out of our cars or
B: feel better about congestion charging when this is introduced to raise more money, oops, that should read "solve the problem".
It's all bollocks.
at least the Tory transport spokesman who was invited to comment ( much later at 08.45, when most people are already at work, so no bias there then) was unequivocal about it. He said congestion charging was bad and that they'd oppose it. He blamed Ken and those like him for adding to the congestion, and articulated clearly that more thought and possible more roads were the answer, coupled with a sensible approach to public transport to offer GENUINE commuter choice, without penalising those motorists who in reality have no choice. I was quite impressed.
Andy 400se
It's an easy propoganda exercise: take a fact most reasonable people would agree with - ie, drop the limit from 30 to 20 in certain areas, and tie this to half truths like "dangerous roads, high death rates etc" (in fact our roads are already some of the safest in the world).
Then the clever bit is to circumvent local democracy and informed decision making by implying that the locals don't know as much about the problem as the "road traffic experts" and as such their decisions MUST be wrong headed. Et Voila! you have a method, motive and justification for doing whatever you feel like in the name of revenue generation, oops sorry, safety.
There was another one of these this morning with the government announcing 130millions for the alleviation of "pinch points" to aid in congested areas.
Those amongst you not afflicted with alzheimers will remember that it wasn't so long ago that Red Ken in London and other labour controlled local authorities were deliberately tinkeing with traffic light phasing and road junction layouts with the specific intention of creating pinch points, thereby increasing congestion so that we'd either
A: be forced out of our cars or
B: feel better about congestion charging when this is introduced to raise more money, oops, that should read "solve the problem".
It's all bollocks.
at least the Tory transport spokesman who was invited to comment ( much later at 08.45, when most people are already at work, so no bias there then) was unequivocal about it. He said congestion charging was bad and that they'd oppose it. He blamed Ken and those like him for adding to the congestion, and articulated clearly that more thought and possible more roads were the answer, coupled with a sensible approach to public transport to offer GENUINE commuter choice, without penalising those motorists who in reality have no choice. I was quite impressed.
Andy 400se
Not sure if more roads are ALWAYS the answer - more effecient use of the existing road network would be a far better solution.
Love 'em or hate 'em, varaible speed limits DO increase the AVERAGE journey time - as long as everyone sticks the their current lane AND the imposed speed limit. These systems are dynamic and multi-modal, so when some one changes lane and someone goes quicker, it throws the system out.
Trouble is EVERYONE is in a hurry and they HAVE to be there quickly...
- wake up and smell the coffee.. everyone thinks they're the most important and should get there first...
Love 'em or hate 'em, varaible speed limits DO increase the AVERAGE journey time - as long as everyone sticks the their current lane AND the imposed speed limit. These systems are dynamic and multi-modal, so when some one changes lane and someone goes quicker, it throws the system out.
Trouble is EVERYONE is in a hurry and they HAVE to be there quickly...
- wake up and smell the coffee.. everyone thinks they're the most important and should get there first...www.faxyourmp.com - do it now before you leave your seat!
Tell your MP you expect him to attend the commons debate tomorrow and you expect your views and those of every other right thinking motorist be represented & that nanny must cut the apron strings and treat us like grown-ups.Do it now!
Totalitarian luddite bubblewrap-loving retards!
How can we make our feelings known?
My idea is to stage a national leave-your-car-at-home public transport day. Two things will happen - first off everything will grind to a chaotic halt, because public transport will be completely over-run (creating significant financial losses for business), second off all the Livingstone loving bastards will be deprived of motoring taxes for 24 hours.
Duplicated from the duplicated thread!
My idea is to stage a national leave-your-car-at-home public transport day. Two things will happen - first off everything will grind to a chaotic halt, because public transport will be completely over-run (creating significant financial losses for business), second off all the Livingstone loving bastards will be deprived of motoring taxes for 24 hours.
Duplicated from the duplicated thread!
Podie said:
Trouble is EVERYONE is in a hurry and they HAVE to be there quickly...
I AM and I DO!!!
But surely you mean that the variable limits DECREASE average journey times, not INCREASE. Or did I miss your point?
Mon Ami Mate said: How can we make our feelings known?
My idea is to stage a national leave-your-car-at-home public transport day. Two things will happen - first off everything will grind to a chaotic halt, because public transport will be completely over-run (creating significant financial losses for business), second off all the Livingstone loving bastards will be deprived of motoring taxes for 24 hours.
Duplicated from the duplicated thread!
I'm up for that - I will post a link to here on some other forums and try to get support.
mondeoman said:
But surely you mean that the variable limits DECREASE average journey times, not INCREASE. Or did I miss your point?
Used CORRECTLY variable limits will DECREASE average journey times... sorry, coffee machine is busted.
- and I've got a hangover the size of Mungo's "little black book" >> Edited by Podie on Wednesday 16th October 11:50
No mention of improving driver training then? They could charge us for it - make money out of safer driving. Please God - anything but blanket 40mph on 'country' roads. All these ***kers live in bloody London - try a rural journey at 40. I have the wit to slow down for junctions/corners/selfish cows riding horses/villages with NSL - why can't we train people - please, I'm begging here.
Podie said
Used CORRECTLY variable limits will DECREASE average journey times... sorry, coffee machine is busted.
>> Edited by Podie on Wednesday 16th October 11:50
I know a bit about this (don't ask how!)
The lower speed limits at congested times on motorways like the M25 work to keep things moving, albeit at a slower rate. The real delays come when you get the "stop/start scenario".
What happens then is that you get a multiple addition of reaction times from all the drivers involved and this creates tailbacks.
Much simplified, the scenario works like this:
Lots of traffic moving at high speed in outside two lanes creates barrier that prevents inner lanes moving over to let new(joining) traffic come onto the motorway.
When you get a high concentration of junctions or a large number of joining cars, or worse, both together, then the inside lanes are progressively slowed more and more to accomodate that traffic. This results in cars already in those lanes forcing their way into the outer lanes, which they join at slower speeds and thus slow those down too.
then you factor in those muppets who are joining the motorway for one or two junctions only, but who insist in forcing their way all the way out to the outside lane and back in that time!. EVERYONE has to slow down for them!
Eventually, the average speeds drop further and further and it only takes one minor incident such as a lorry tyre puncture, car breakdown, small accident, somebody driving even slower cos they're lost or scared or something and then eventually all traffic stops! Then, becuase drivers all start up again in turn in turn instead of simultaeneously (sp) a 20 second delay at the head of the queue translates to 10 minutes, half an hour or an hour at the other end of the queue, depending on how long it is as thousands of drivers have to go through the "OOh, the guy in front is moving, put my car in gear, gently pull away etc etc" Each drivers reaction and execution time adds to the delay.
If you keep all traffic moving at a slower speed there is no incentive to rush to the outside lane, joining traffic can get up to speed easier and cause less disruption to flow and traffic does not stop, (unless something has gone really tits up) thereby removing the "reaction time chain" from the equation.
of course none of this applies really in cities, where congestion is more due to piss poor light phasing, junction design, the imposition of bus lanes and traffic volumes.
Sorry if this was a bit boring1
Andy 400se
..quite right though Well, I've faxed my MP with the following:
I don't suppose it'll do any good, and I'm sure many of you could be more eloquent (CarZee in particular!), but I've done my 'bit' I think. If you think it's any good, feel free to use it as a base for your own faxes.
Dan
Dear Rt Hon Peter Lilley,
I read with alarm that the government is planning to further reduce speed limits, and enforce these artificially low limits with speed cameras. Whilst I support the principle of a lower limit of 20 mph around schools, a blanket 20 mph limit around towns strikes me as a little extreme.
In addition to this proposed in town limit, I notice that rural roads are to be targeted, with many currently 60 mph limits reduced to 40 mph. I can think of several roads where 60 mph is a more than safe speed (the A1081 between Harpenden and Luton/St Albans, for example) that would presumably be reduced to 40 mph.
Whilst writing to you to register my dismay before the event may seem a little extreme, I'm hoping to avoid the event altogether!
The reasons given for these reductions in limits include reduction in pedestrian deaths (which no one can claim would not be a good thing) as a headline grabber, but also are designed to encourage more people to walk and cycle without being "bullied" by motorised traffic, to meet another Blair target.
Whilst I'm sure many people would like a return to the pre-car age (if only because the Labour party wouldn't be in existence!), deliberately hobbling the car as a form of transport so that walking or cycling are a more attractive (or at this rate a faster) option is lunacy. People drive because the do not wish to walk, cycle or wait for an hour in the hope that a bus turns up, and this legislation is a fix for a non-existent problem.
Yours Sincerely,
Dan Lingard
I don't suppose it'll do any good, and I'm sure many of you could be more eloquent (CarZee in particular!), but I've done my 'bit' I think. If you think it's any good, feel free to use it as a base for your own faxes.
Dan
Agreed - that this type of system will inprove the flow in some instances - but where it is used on the M25 - it is a four lane motorway and drivers are generally aware of the idea and it is backed by four lane overhead gantry cameras to enforce - so it is a pretty heavy handed method.
also whilst in medium traffic it can delay your arrival at the back of any tailback - you will still arrive - as the Police have a policy of keeping accidents in situ until they have completed there photographs and measures - they will regularly close secions of the M25 in the event of a lane blocking accident.
My point is - that if the aim is to keep the flow going - then clear the accidents quickly - on most sections of the M25 you are on cctv in any case.
in light traffic the system can work - but it only runs for about 15 miles anyway ....
My suggestion - register your sensible point of view
www.faxyourmp.co.uk
Ask for a national body to be formed to set & review speed limits - whilst I am in favour of local democracy in this instance it leads to bizarre and confusing signage and speed limits
sorry for long post
also whilst in medium traffic it can delay your arrival at the back of any tailback - you will still arrive - as the Police have a policy of keeping accidents in situ until they have completed there photographs and measures - they will regularly close secions of the M25 in the event of a lane blocking accident.
My point is - that if the aim is to keep the flow going - then clear the accidents quickly - on most sections of the M25 you are on cctv in any case.
in light traffic the system can work - but it only runs for about 15 miles anyway ....
My suggestion - register your sensible point of view
www.faxyourmp.co.uk
Ask for a national body to be formed to set & review speed limits - whilst I am in favour of local democracy in this instance it leads to bizarre and confusing signage and speed limits
sorry for long post
Right - an open letter (fax) to my MP - Andrew Hunter (Cons):
Dear Mr Andrew Hunter,
I read with distresss the story being presented today that there are to be wholesale nationwide reductions in speed limits imposed by the transport department subsequent to a report relased today, to which you will have access.
As you'll be aware, the report is due to be debated in the House of Commons tomorrow - I trust that you will be attending and representing the interests of your constituents - all of us people who demand to be treated like adults and not force fed these fallacious hypotheses about speed being a major killer.
Actual traffic speed is responsible for a mere 7% of deaths and serious injuries on our roads - significantly less than those caused by failure to observe/anticipate, paying proper attention ot the road, influence of drink or drugs, mechanical failure etc..
To reduce speed limits is merely to admit to and perpetuate an ever decreasing lowest common denominator of driving standards. So, why not raise the standards of driving rather than lower speeds to acomodate falling standards of driving and road engineering??
We should be engaging in more progressive and pro-active measures to reduce road casualties such as:
- Regular (5/10year) retesting
- Public information films (believable and sensible ones - not the 'Speed Kills' ones which anyone with a schoolboy grasp of Newtonian Mechanics knows are lies).
- Incentives to undergo advanced training. (IPT rebates etc..)
- Improved road engineering.
- Restore a sensible level of Traffic Policing which has been emaciated in favour of Speed Cameras which do not detect drunk, uninsured, dangerous or incompetent drivers, merely ones that transgress an ancient and arbitrary speed limit which is only suitable for the given road for a couple of hours a day and is unable to exercise wisdom or discretion.
Also, the Hypothecation and Netting off scheme for Speed Cameras amounts to nothing more than an effort to turn the British Justice system into a money making operation and it undermines fundamental principles which underlie any free and fair society. Moreover, since road deaths have not, in truth, fallen at all nationally since the introduction of Speed Cameras, there cannot be any reason for us to believe that they are of any 'safety' benefit and are a mere tool of motorist opression and revenue generation.
We have become the subservient drones to Mr Blair's totalitarian state and I for one have had quite enough. I am a member of a large motoring club, in which there are many members thinking of leaving the UK for a country with a rather less over-bearing and thoroughly illiberal government.
Many of us are also convinced that the Conservative Party is missing an enormous opportunity. There is massive untapped resentment of New Labour and their utterly disgraceful record on transport - trains, buses, roads, congestion charges, fuel taxes, bus lanes, radar traps, gatsos, traffic calming. All guaranteed to make the motorist's blood boil - and why? Because New Labour hate the concept of the personal motorcar and are entirely unable to assimilate the fact ther for most of us there is simply no viable alternative.
Or perhaps they know damned well that we have no viable alternative and are hence rejoicing in their abililty to impose punitive taxes, speed limits and revenue generating speed cameras with total impunity.
The lunatic green fringe must be laughing out loud at how 30 million motorists in the UK have been hoodwinked by a government that is pursuing transport policies which can only possibly appeal to luddites and imbeciles.
There is presently half a country of people feeling utterly disenfranchised in the elctoral process, because of the cowering Conservative Party, which seems to have been moving steadily to the left to such a point where the wiley and deceitful Mr Blair would be considered a right wing extremist in your party. Incidentally, I sympathise with you regarding the rebuke you sustained from the utterly dreadful and spineless Ian Duncan Smith regarding your affilitation with 'Right Now'. I fear freedom of expression is more theory than practice in 2002 and it is wholly lamentable.
However, I digress. This proposal to reduce speed limits across the country is an utter disgrace from top to bottom and I suggest that were yourself and fellow Conservative MPs to stand in the House tomorrow and make the feelings of your constituents known in the strongest possible terms, there would be an awful lot of us feeling like you had started to make amends.
It's time The Conservatives started appealing to the biggest caucus of them all - Motorists!
I await the outcome with anticipation.
Best Regards
Aidan Richardson
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