Discussion
I've had a MINI Cooper S for a week, and as I'm just about to give it back, I thought I'd post a report on it.
When it was delivered, it certainly looked the part, very nicely designed, nice styling cues from the original , but thoroughly modern looking. The inside seemed pretty nice too. Speedo seemed a tad large, and in definitely the wrong place, but, hey, it's supposed to be a sports car isn't it?
So, off I set around Canary Wharf. First thing I noticed is that the gearing seems to be very high, and there's an annoying high pitched whine coming from under the bonnet. Maybe some mosquitos? Oh, and the mirror is too small, and annoyingly shaped.
Anyway, off we went, clattering and banging across London's potholes, and as long as I stuck to 1st and second, it seemed fine. Crashed a lot more than my Elise, but then, Lotus didn't do the suspension on the Mini, so I shouldn't expect finesse.
Out onto the main roads, and, again, as long as I used a low gear, it pulled quite briskly. Up to 120 without much of a problem.
Except where there was water on the road. As the windscreen is a crappy angle, so just collects water, and the windscreen wipers are rubbish, I was sticking below 70 when it aquaplaned on its brand new tyres, and threatened to punt me into the barriers. My Lotus has certainly never done that, but hey, Lotus wanted it to be practical, so I shouldn't expect a Mini to compete on that front.
Onto the cambers of singke carriageways, and the cr kept hunting left and right. Following cambers, and crashing on cats eyes. OK, I thought, it's a verey firn sports car, let's get it onto the twisty roads.
Well, that's when its character changed. From feeling like a clio cup racer when driven gently, it transformed magically into a wallowy yawing barge. On turn in, it would roll in a most unsportscarlike fashion, and then the yaw angle would sway left to right, even though I could feel that traction limits were a long way off. The overall feeling was that the front wheels were not following the steering input, but were rather doing their own thing in line with the roll angle. The rear was keeping up, but not very well. In general, the feeling was that either end might let go first.
The next day, I gave up on the MINI, and went back to my Seat Toledo. At least this painted some positive points in about the Mini. It showed me that the throttle response was great in the MINI, and that the engine really liked to rev. I also appreciated a bit more the firm control weighting.
So, back in the MINI, I was not so critical of it as an overall package, but I couldn't quite see the point of the whole thing. It is no faster than my sensible (amd fully equipped) Seat (at least, in a straight line), and lacks the power seats, automatic climate control, and so on (as well as costing more). On the other hand, it is not in the same leage as sports cars when it comes to feedback, finesse, and on the limit handling. If you don't want four seats, get a Lotus. If you absolutely need the extra room, then perhaps look for something less compromised by styling.
A very negative review I admit, and maybe I am not the target audience for this car, but I'm afraid that it just left me cold. A track might have given me the chance to get to love it, but I doubt it. For me, any road car that has sporting pretensions must offer either stormimg acceleration, or the sort of feel that allows you to choose its aspect precisely. A halfway house, for me, is not the way to go.
When it was delivered, it certainly looked the part, very nicely designed, nice styling cues from the original , but thoroughly modern looking. The inside seemed pretty nice too. Speedo seemed a tad large, and in definitely the wrong place, but, hey, it's supposed to be a sports car isn't it?
So, off I set around Canary Wharf. First thing I noticed is that the gearing seems to be very high, and there's an annoying high pitched whine coming from under the bonnet. Maybe some mosquitos? Oh, and the mirror is too small, and annoyingly shaped.
Anyway, off we went, clattering and banging across London's potholes, and as long as I stuck to 1st and second, it seemed fine. Crashed a lot more than my Elise, but then, Lotus didn't do the suspension on the Mini, so I shouldn't expect finesse.
Out onto the main roads, and, again, as long as I used a low gear, it pulled quite briskly. Up to 120 without much of a problem.
Except where there was water on the road. As the windscreen is a crappy angle, so just collects water, and the windscreen wipers are rubbish, I was sticking below 70 when it aquaplaned on its brand new tyres, and threatened to punt me into the barriers. My Lotus has certainly never done that, but hey, Lotus wanted it to be practical, so I shouldn't expect a Mini to compete on that front.
Onto the cambers of singke carriageways, and the cr kept hunting left and right. Following cambers, and crashing on cats eyes. OK, I thought, it's a verey firn sports car, let's get it onto the twisty roads.
Well, that's when its character changed. From feeling like a clio cup racer when driven gently, it transformed magically into a wallowy yawing barge. On turn in, it would roll in a most unsportscarlike fashion, and then the yaw angle would sway left to right, even though I could feel that traction limits were a long way off. The overall feeling was that the front wheels were not following the steering input, but were rather doing their own thing in line with the roll angle. The rear was keeping up, but not very well. In general, the feeling was that either end might let go first.
The next day, I gave up on the MINI, and went back to my Seat Toledo. At least this painted some positive points in about the Mini. It showed me that the throttle response was great in the MINI, and that the engine really liked to rev. I also appreciated a bit more the firm control weighting.
So, back in the MINI, I was not so critical of it as an overall package, but I couldn't quite see the point of the whole thing. It is no faster than my sensible (amd fully equipped) Seat (at least, in a straight line), and lacks the power seats, automatic climate control, and so on (as well as costing more). On the other hand, it is not in the same leage as sports cars when it comes to feedback, finesse, and on the limit handling. If you don't want four seats, get a Lotus. If you absolutely need the extra room, then perhaps look for something less compromised by styling.
A very negative review I admit, and maybe I am not the target audience for this car, but I'm afraid that it just left me cold. A track might have given me the chance to get to love it, but I doubt it. For me, any road car that has sporting pretensions must offer either stormimg acceleration, or the sort of feel that allows you to choose its aspect precisely. A halfway house, for me, is not the way to go.
Well, not saying it was a bad car, just really not for me. What sort of thing were you comparing it to?
My baseline for sportscars is my Elise sports 135, and my point of reference for four seaters is an S4. The things that these are good at, the MINI doesn't seem to do so well. Of course, the Lotus has only 2 seats and is made of plastic, and a new S4 was 47,000 pounds once you'd put the necessary options on it, so clearly, there are some huge compromises to be made with those choices too.
I'd venture a guess that the MINI appeals to people who are moving from softer hatchbacks, but would be interested to hear about what you liked about it.
I think my main feeling was that it wasn't worth 18,000 pounds. I don't particularly appreciate brand new over a 2 year old car, so rarely find something brand new worth the money.
My baseline for sportscars is my Elise sports 135, and my point of reference for four seaters is an S4. The things that these are good at, the MINI doesn't seem to do so well. Of course, the Lotus has only 2 seats and is made of plastic, and a new S4 was 47,000 pounds once you'd put the necessary options on it, so clearly, there are some huge compromises to be made with those choices too.
I'd venture a guess that the MINI appeals to people who are moving from softer hatchbacks, but would be interested to hear about what you liked about it.
I think my main feeling was that it wasn't worth 18,000 pounds. I don't particularly appreciate brand new over a 2 year old car, so rarely find something brand new worth the money.
Have you driven a CTR mate? If you have, how do you think it compares? For similar money the Honda in my estimation is loads better, faster, bigger and more fun. I like the Coop S but most owners say that it needs a bit more oooommph.
>> Edited by broccoli on Thursday 7th November 12:42
>> Edited by broccoli on Thursday 7th November 12:42
No, haven't driven a Civic R yet. I do like Hondas in general, so I'd definitely like to have a try. Honda keep calling me asking if I want one, but I'll wait until they offer it to me for a week first. I've decided that half hour test drives with a salesman in are a pretty poor way to judge a car. A week with the Mini showed up, for example, the poor range (210 miles on a tank), and the problem with the boot size.
I'd probably be tempted by the new Alfa, but I've read very bad things about their reliability (yes, that included the modern ones), and the one thing guaranteed to put me off a car is if it's unreliable (shocking that I have a Lotus really).
If any Honda dealer out there wants to give me a Type-R for a week, and then agree not to bug me, please feel free to drop me a line.
I'd probably be tempted by the new Alfa, but I've read very bad things about their reliability (yes, that included the modern ones), and the one thing guaranteed to put me off a car is if it's unreliable (shocking that I have a Lotus really).
If any Honda dealer out there wants to give me a Type-R for a week, and then agree not to bug me, please feel free to drop me a line.
I have to agree,i drove an S back in june when they were just out.A demo car with everything on it at £21k
didn't seem to do anything especially well,nice current fashion jewellery thing.
I have owned most hot hatches up to '98 my last being a GTI 6 and really didn't think there was much competition from a drivers point of view.
Apart from the price I was mostly left with some contempt for most of the performance car journalists who seem to think it is one of the best cars ever.
didn't seem to do anything especially well,nice current fashion jewellery thing.
I have owned most hot hatches up to '98 my last being a GTI 6 and really didn't think there was much competition from a drivers point of view.
Apart from the price I was mostly left with some contempt for most of the performance car journalists who seem to think it is one of the best cars ever.
I have an alfa 147 2.0 - no reliability issues in 16 months so far
However I used to have a 111s - and the handling is a bit *different*
(no surprise) - stillth alfa comes fully loaded at 17,995 can't complain....
edit removed numpty comment about it's only for shopping
>> Edited by Gargamel on Thursday 7th November 14:27
However I used to have a 111s - and the handling is a bit *different*
(no surprise) - stillth alfa comes fully loaded at 17,995 can't complain....
edit removed numpty comment about it's only for shopping
>> Edited by Gargamel on Thursday 7th November 14:27
I found it less fun than my Lotus, Less fun than my dirt bike, less fun than my superbike, but more fun than my Seat, so it wins on one front.
As I mentioned earlier, my previous sensible car of choice is a 310bhp, 300lb-ft V6 engined 4 wheel drive autobahn stormer.
My comparison for a hot hatch is a Clio Cup race car. Again, on another planet to the MINI.
When it comes to MY choice, it has to be a direct comparison. I will perhaps buy a hot hatch, or a hot Audi next, but not both. I am getting extremely tempted by an RS2 or RS6. Had the MINI gripped my affections like the forst Elise did, it could have saved me up to 40,000 pounds. Sadly, it looks like I'm going to get suckered into something pricey again.
>> Edited by NorthernBoy on Thursday 7th November 15:10
As I mentioned earlier, my previous sensible car of choice is a 310bhp, 300lb-ft V6 engined 4 wheel drive autobahn stormer.
My comparison for a hot hatch is a Clio Cup race car. Again, on another planet to the MINI.
When it comes to MY choice, it has to be a direct comparison. I will perhaps buy a hot hatch, or a hot Audi next, but not both. I am getting extremely tempted by an RS2 or RS6. Had the MINI gripped my affections like the forst Elise did, it could have saved me up to 40,000 pounds. Sadly, it looks like I'm going to get suckered into something pricey again.
>> Edited by NorthernBoy on Thursday 7th November 15:10
Podie said:Broccers - you're not trying to turn this into a CTR thread are you!?!?
Hey we could suggest the RS Podie ??! I was reading the 'potential owners' bbs yesterday and they are still waiting since ordering in Jan 01 - That is simply ridiculaRSe.
www.bbsfocusrs.net/"When it was delivered, it certainly looked the part, very nicely designed, nice styling cues
from the original , but thoroughly modern looking. The inside seemed pretty nice too. Speedo
seemed a tad large, and in definitely the wrong place, but, hey, it's supposed to be a sports
car isn't it?"
Totally agree with design comments; easily the most original (interpretation!), funkiest, and
most cohesive design in its class inside and out. But what about 'hey, it's supposed to be a
sports car isn't it?' Er, no. Its a hot-hatch.
"So, off I set around Canary Wharf. First thing I noticed is that the gearing seems to be very
high, and there's an annoying high pitched whine coming from under the bonnet. Maybe some
mosquitos? Oh, and the mirror is too small, and annoyingly shaped."
Funny that, first time I drove one was around the Wharf too. If anything I'd say the 6spd box
is a touch of overkill for normal driving - ratio's are short and closely stacked, of course this
is a boon when charging around keeping the engine on the boil, so I just shift 2nd - 4th - 6th
and use the (ample) torque. Re: high pitched whine, well sounds like your having a wind up
'cos its the supercharger making that noise. Obviously. Oh, and the mirror is indeed too
small, and annoyingly shaped.
"Anyway, off we went, clattering and banging across London's potholes, and as long as I
stuck to 1st and second, it seemed fine. Crashed a lot more than my Elise, but then, Lotus
didn't do the suspension on the Mini, so I shouldn't expect finesse."
The MCS's suspension is definately on the firm side, giving it a 'lively' ride. Probably too firm
when pootling around town actually, but the suspension's workings are pretty quiet with little
or no bump thump and clonking from the wheels. Basic ride control is excellent.
"Out onto the main roads, and, again, as long as I used a low gear, it pulled quite briskly. Up
to 120 without much of a problem."
Pulling well up to 120 not quick enough then!
"Except where there was water on the road. As the windscreen is a crappy angle, so just
collects water, and the windscreen wipers are rubbish, I was sticking below 70 when it
aquaplaned on its brand new tyres, and threatened to punt me into the barriers. My Lotus
has certainly never done that, but hey, Lotus wanted it to be practical, so I shouldn't expect a
Mini to compete on that front."
Having spent 2.5 hours of Saturday stonking through the heavy rain that we were being hit
with, I have to say absolute rubbish! Screen doesn't collect water, and the wipers front and
back are excellent. To aquaplane under 70 you must have been driving through a foot of
water. Not once did the car feel like it was going to slide unless I wanted it too, or without
telegraphing its intentions well beforehand. My personal experience of driving a Mk 1 Elsie
through similar conditions was that it was much more threatening, lift off oversteer arriving
suddenly and sometimes without warning. BTW you shouldn't expect a Mini to compete on
what front?
"Onto the cambers of singke carriageways, and the cr kept hunting left and right. Following
cambers, and crashing on cats eyes. OK, I thought, it's a verey firn sports car, let's get it onto
the twisty roads.
Well, that's when its character changed. From feeling like a clio cup racer when driven gently,
it transformed magically into a wallowy yawing barge. On turn in, it would roll in a most
unsportscarlike fashion, and then the yaw angle would sway left to right, even though I could
feel that traction limits were a long way off. The overall feeling was that the front wheels were
not following the steering input, but were rather doing their own thing in line with the roll
angle. The rear was keeping up, but not very well. In general, the feeling was that either end
might let go first."
This is when I started to suspect you're on a wind up. Most firmly sprung cars with wide
tyres will follow cambers and thump over cats eye's, the pay off is on the twistie's, which is
where the MCS comes into its own. While being quiet and useable at town speeds, when
you hit the twisties and start going for it you see why the car is firmly sprung. Long off
camber tightening right hander? No probs, turn a little more, back off the throttle a little, the
nose tucks in and gas it! Tight right-left switchback? Perfect, with pin sharp turn in and zero
understeer your right into MCS country. The car stays flat as a pancake at all times, with no
body roll to speak of, masses of grip and good feedback from the steering and the seat of the
pants. To lose it in an MCS you'd have to be either (a) going way too fast for the road or (b)
driving like a pilchard.
"The next day, I gave up on the MINI, and went back to my Seat Toledo. At least this
painted some positive points in about the Mini. It showed me that the throttle response was
great in the MINI, and that the engine really liked to rev. I also appreciated a bit more the
firm control weighting."
Hmm. MCS vs SEAT Leon. Strange. Funnily enough, my experience is that the MCS engine
is not especially revvy, the supercharger endows it with a good even spread of torque from
about 3000rpm onwards, and although redlined at 7k, not really worth going past 6k.
"So, back in the MINI, I was not so critical of it as an overall package, but I couldn't quite
see the point of the whole thing. It is no faster than my sensible (amd fully equipped) Seat (at
least, in a straight line), and lacks the power seats, automatic climate control, and so on (as
well as costing more). On the other hand, it is not in the same leage as sports cars when it
comes to feedback, finesse, and on the limit handling. If you don't want four seats, get a
Lotus. If you absolutely need the extra room, then perhaps look for something less
compromised by styling."
MCS vs Toledo again? 'no faster' Er, yes it is. Significantly so over winding roads where you
can work the chassis and keep in 3rd/4th. Our MCS comes with ASC, Full sunroof, climate,
CD, part leather, big sunroof etc. £16.5k and the guarantee of very low depreciation makes
it one of the best new car buys around, added to which the low production / high demand
will make it easy to sell for years to come... Its not in the same league as an Elsie when it
comes to feedback, finesse, and on the limit handling. But then an Elsie isn't in the same
league on refinement, useability, interior space / comfort so why compare differing cars?
"A very negative review I admit, and maybe I am not the target audience for this car, but I'm
afraid that it just left me cold. A track might have given me the chance to get to love it, but I
doubt it. For me, any road car that has sporting pretensions must offer either stormimg
acceleration, or the sort of feel that allows you to choose its aspect precisely. A halfway
house, for me, is not the way to go."
I can't help thinking that if you don't regard yourself as the target audience for this car then
maybe you had a negative attitude to it before it turned a wheel, and even then why you were
testing it? Although huge fun on the track its better on the road where its ability to stay
composed under all conditions make it enormously quick and confidence inspiring accross
country. I too feel that it could do with a bit more grunt, but a good part of this is unlocked
during run-in, ours feels a good bit more responsive now at 1500miles than it was when new.
Its handling really is a revelation for a hot hatch. It doesn't offer the level of feedback and
edginess of a Clio Sport, but is a damn site better built and more refined so the compromises
are well judged for me.
To sum up this car hits all of its targets:
It looks great inside and out, yet offers a good level of practicality.
Its refined and smooth on the motorway, reasonably well equipped out of the box at £14.5k
but is more fun to drive than many sports cars costing twice the money.
Its well built to standards set by a respected manufacturer, with a commensurate level of
(very cheap, thanks to TLC) dealer service.
As a new car proposition it makes huge sense. Cheap finance, high demand / low production
= best in class residuals.
www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/index.asp?storyId=4942
Describes the car pretty well....
>> Edited by trackdemon on Thursday 7th November 17:51
from the original , but thoroughly modern looking. The inside seemed pretty nice too. Speedo
seemed a tad large, and in definitely the wrong place, but, hey, it's supposed to be a sports
car isn't it?"
Totally agree with design comments; easily the most original (interpretation!), funkiest, and
most cohesive design in its class inside and out. But what about 'hey, it's supposed to be a
sports car isn't it?' Er, no. Its a hot-hatch.
"So, off I set around Canary Wharf. First thing I noticed is that the gearing seems to be very
high, and there's an annoying high pitched whine coming from under the bonnet. Maybe some
mosquitos? Oh, and the mirror is too small, and annoyingly shaped."
Funny that, first time I drove one was around the Wharf too. If anything I'd say the 6spd box
is a touch of overkill for normal driving - ratio's are short and closely stacked, of course this
is a boon when charging around keeping the engine on the boil, so I just shift 2nd - 4th - 6th
and use the (ample) torque. Re: high pitched whine, well sounds like your having a wind up
'cos its the supercharger making that noise. Obviously. Oh, and the mirror is indeed too
small, and annoyingly shaped.
"Anyway, off we went, clattering and banging across London's potholes, and as long as I
stuck to 1st and second, it seemed fine. Crashed a lot more than my Elise, but then, Lotus
didn't do the suspension on the Mini, so I shouldn't expect finesse."
The MCS's suspension is definately on the firm side, giving it a 'lively' ride. Probably too firm
when pootling around town actually, but the suspension's workings are pretty quiet with little
or no bump thump and clonking from the wheels. Basic ride control is excellent.
"Out onto the main roads, and, again, as long as I used a low gear, it pulled quite briskly. Up
to 120 without much of a problem."
Pulling well up to 120 not quick enough then!
"Except where there was water on the road. As the windscreen is a crappy angle, so just
collects water, and the windscreen wipers are rubbish, I was sticking below 70 when it
aquaplaned on its brand new tyres, and threatened to punt me into the barriers. My Lotus
has certainly never done that, but hey, Lotus wanted it to be practical, so I shouldn't expect a
Mini to compete on that front."
Having spent 2.5 hours of Saturday stonking through the heavy rain that we were being hit
with, I have to say absolute rubbish!
Screen doesn't collect water, and the wipers front and back are excellent. To aquaplane under 70 you must have been driving through a foot of
water. Not once did the car feel like it was going to slide unless I wanted it too, or without
telegraphing its intentions well beforehand. My personal experience of driving a Mk 1 Elsie
through similar conditions was that it was much more threatening, lift off oversteer arriving
suddenly and sometimes without warning. BTW you shouldn't expect a Mini to compete on
what front?
"Onto the cambers of singke carriageways, and the cr kept hunting left and right. Following
cambers, and crashing on cats eyes. OK, I thought, it's a verey firn sports car, let's get it onto
the twisty roads.
Well, that's when its character changed. From feeling like a clio cup racer when driven gently,
it transformed magically into a wallowy yawing barge. On turn in, it would roll in a most
unsportscarlike fashion, and then the yaw angle would sway left to right, even though I could
feel that traction limits were a long way off. The overall feeling was that the front wheels were
not following the steering input, but were rather doing their own thing in line with the roll
angle. The rear was keeping up, but not very well. In general, the feeling was that either end
might let go first."
This is when I started to suspect you're on a wind up. Most firmly sprung cars with wide
tyres will follow cambers and thump over cats eye's, the pay off is on the twistie's, which is
where the MCS comes into its own. While being quiet and useable at town speeds, when
you hit the twisties and start going for it you see why the car is firmly sprung. Long off
camber tightening right hander? No probs, turn a little more, back off the throttle a little, the
nose tucks in and gas it! Tight right-left switchback? Perfect, with pin sharp turn in and zero
understeer your right into MCS country. The car stays flat as a pancake at all times, with no
body roll to speak of, masses of grip and good feedback from the steering and the seat of the
pants. To lose it in an MCS you'd have to be either (a) going way too fast for the road or (b)
driving like a pilchard.
"The next day, I gave up on the MINI, and went back to my Seat Toledo. At least this
painted some positive points in about the Mini. It showed me that the throttle response was
great in the MINI, and that the engine really liked to rev. I also appreciated a bit more the
firm control weighting."
Hmm. MCS vs SEAT Leon. Strange. Funnily enough, my experience is that the MCS engine
is not especially revvy, the supercharger endows it with a good even spread of torque from
about 3000rpm onwards, and although redlined at 7k, not really worth going past 6k.
"So, back in the MINI, I was not so critical of it as an overall package, but I couldn't quite
see the point of the whole thing. It is no faster than my sensible (amd fully equipped) Seat (at
least, in a straight line), and lacks the power seats, automatic climate control, and so on (as
well as costing more). On the other hand, it is not in the same leage as sports cars when it
comes to feedback, finesse, and on the limit handling. If you don't want four seats, get a
Lotus. If you absolutely need the extra room, then perhaps look for something less
compromised by styling."
MCS vs Toledo again? 'no faster' Er, yes it is. Significantly so over winding roads where you
can work the chassis and keep in 3rd/4th. Our MCS comes with ASC, Full sunroof, climate,
CD, part leather, big sunroof etc. £16.5k and the guarantee of very low depreciation makes
it one of the best new car buys around, added to which the low production / high demand
will make it easy to sell for years to come... Its not in the same league as an Elsie when it
comes to feedback, finesse, and on the limit handling. But then an Elsie isn't in the same
league on refinement, useability, interior space / comfort so why compare differing cars?
"A very negative review I admit, and maybe I am not the target audience for this car, but I'm
afraid that it just left me cold. A track might have given me the chance to get to love it, but I
doubt it. For me, any road car that has sporting pretensions must offer either stormimg
acceleration, or the sort of feel that allows you to choose its aspect precisely. A halfway
house, for me, is not the way to go."
I can't help thinking that if you don't regard yourself as the target audience for this car then
maybe you had a negative attitude to it before it turned a wheel, and even then why you were
testing it? Although huge fun on the track its better on the road where its ability to stay
composed under all conditions make it enormously quick and confidence inspiring accross
country. I too feel that it could do with a bit more grunt, but a good part of this is unlocked
during run-in, ours feels a good bit more responsive now at 1500miles than it was when new.
Its handling really is a revelation for a hot hatch. It doesn't offer the level of feedback and
edginess of a Clio Sport, but is a damn site better built and more refined so the compromises
are well judged for me.
To sum up this car hits all of its targets:
It looks great inside and out, yet offers a good level of practicality.
Its refined and smooth on the motorway, reasonably well equipped out of the box at £14.5k
but is more fun to drive than many sports cars costing twice the money.
Its well built to standards set by a respected manufacturer, with a commensurate level of
(very cheap, thanks to TLC) dealer service.
As a new car proposition it makes huge sense. Cheap finance, high demand / low production
= best in class residuals.
www.pistonheads.com/roadtests/index.asp?storyId=4942
Describes the car pretty well....
>> Edited by trackdemon on Thursday 7th November 17:51
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