Private vs. state schooling
Discussion
O.K., since we all seem to be in a serious advosry mode at the moment, someone solve this one for me.
My ex-wife wants to send my children to a private school, and I want them to go to the local state school. Why? Because said state school is dynamic, caring, responsive, looks after the educational AND pastoral needs of the children, [romotes heir self-reliance, teaches respect and self restraint, and works hard to help less able kids, and does the best it can with the material that comes through the gates (includes a lot of poor kids, disadvantaged etc).
The private school is in the centre of the local city, taking an hour to travel to/from, and has lots of good qualities, but in most respects is only equal to, and in many ways, inferior to, the state school.
However, my ex is totally blinkered, and will not entertain the idea of my children going to a state school. She believes I want them to go to a state school, because I don't want to put my hand in my pocket. (NOT true). She is primarily doing it for the sake of her middle-class image (nice house, sports-jacketed husband, dinner parties, horse shows etc.), and takes no account of the fact that my eldest child is happy as he is, and would suffer in the high-pressure, exam passing ethos at the private school.
So, how can I persuade her that paying for education does not necessarily mean a better education, and can lead to a more narrow, blinkered approach to life. (Much like hers, really).
PS This is not a curmudgeonly rant against my ex-wife, but is a source of considerable angst for me and my children.
My ex-wife wants to send my children to a private school, and I want them to go to the local state school. Why? Because said state school is dynamic, caring, responsive, looks after the educational AND pastoral needs of the children, [romotes heir self-reliance, teaches respect and self restraint, and works hard to help less able kids, and does the best it can with the material that comes through the gates (includes a lot of poor kids, disadvantaged etc).
The private school is in the centre of the local city, taking an hour to travel to/from, and has lots of good qualities, but in most respects is only equal to, and in many ways, inferior to, the state school.
However, my ex is totally blinkered, and will not entertain the idea of my children going to a state school. She believes I want them to go to a state school, because I don't want to put my hand in my pocket. (NOT true). She is primarily doing it for the sake of her middle-class image (nice house, sports-jacketed husband, dinner parties, horse shows etc.), and takes no account of the fact that my eldest child is happy as he is, and would suffer in the high-pressure, exam passing ethos at the private school.
So, how can I persuade her that paying for education does not necessarily mean a better education, and can lead to a more narrow, blinkered approach to life. (Much like hers, really).
PS This is not a curmudgeonly rant against my ex-wife, but is a source of considerable angst for me and my children.
A real dilemma ...
Nothing wrong with a good state school, Of my family all four of us went to a good comprehensive - three of us went to university, other didn't (through choice)
Birmingham, Manchester and (hull) - all got good degrees.
I think the snob value thing is one issue - but the old school tie network is less important these days.
Tough call - I have no idea what I will do with my own kids when the time comes ...
Nothing wrong with a good state school, Of my family all four of us went to a good comprehensive - three of us went to university, other didn't (through choice)
Birmingham, Manchester and (hull) - all got good degrees.
I think the snob value thing is one issue - but the old school tie network is less important these days.
Tough call - I have no idea what I will do with my own kids when the time comes ...
I can only go on my experiences here... so here goes.
I started off going to a state school, a good, respected, grant maintained secondary. I fitted in, it was in the local area, and I beleive that this helped make me the person I am today. I have wide interests, and looking back I think it did me good. I was never bullied, but knew people who were, so I've seen iot all. I got into punch-ups, but I can look after myself now.
The folks moved abroad for a year and muggins here got sent to a private school for a year. It was hell. Everything was so ridgid in its appraoch and they didn't care for the fact that I was a bloody good cricketer... I HAD to play rugby. Private school boys play rugby. Bollox I said.
The lessons were boring, there was never any fun, and the dorm life didn't give you any freedom or space, and it was generally not my cup of tea. Thankfully my parents returned 6 months earlier than planned, so I went back to the state school... it was great and I appreciated the diversity so much more.
At Uni, it was obvious who had been to private school and who had been to state school. The private school lot just didn't know anything about real life. They were uni-dimensional... and boring. It made them a target of practical jokes etc etc.. and it took them a long time to become excepted. One of my best mates came from private school and he would agree with this.
State school may be cheaper, but IMHO it sets people up better for life... they live, work and play in the real world and have to deal with society. Private school was too regimented for me and I didn't like the atmosphere or the institutionalism.
Incidentially, I got excellent GCSE and A-Level grades, went to one of the top ten Uni's in the country and graduated with a 2:1 in a numerate discipline. I don't think state school did me any harm.
I started off going to a state school, a good, respected, grant maintained secondary. I fitted in, it was in the local area, and I beleive that this helped make me the person I am today. I have wide interests, and looking back I think it did me good. I was never bullied, but knew people who were, so I've seen iot all. I got into punch-ups, but I can look after myself now.
The folks moved abroad for a year and muggins here got sent to a private school for a year. It was hell. Everything was so ridgid in its appraoch and they didn't care for the fact that I was a bloody good cricketer... I HAD to play rugby. Private school boys play rugby. Bollox I said.
The lessons were boring, there was never any fun, and the dorm life didn't give you any freedom or space, and it was generally not my cup of tea. Thankfully my parents returned 6 months earlier than planned, so I went back to the state school... it was great and I appreciated the diversity so much more.
At Uni, it was obvious who had been to private school and who had been to state school. The private school lot just didn't know anything about real life. They were uni-dimensional... and boring. It made them a target of practical jokes etc etc.. and it took them a long time to become excepted. One of my best mates came from private school and he would agree with this.
State school may be cheaper, but IMHO it sets people up better for life... they live, work and play in the real world and have to deal with society. Private school was too regimented for me and I didn't like the atmosphere or the institutionalism.
Incidentially, I got excellent GCSE and A-Level grades, went to one of the top ten Uni's in the country and graduated with a 2:1 in a numerate discipline. I don't think state school did me any harm.
You really have to judge on individual circumstances. I would LOVE to be able to send my girls to state school. I can find far more exciting things to do with £70,000 over the next eleven years. But state schools in Bristol are now, quite literally, criminally bad. I went to a comprehensive (in Dorset), and saw a lot of very talented people get dragged down the pan. But I know they're not all bad, and I know I'm judging within a very narrow frame of reference.
I've found that folk from independent schools in general possess a far greater degree of self-confidence than those from comps, and confidence alone get you a long way.
I've found that folk from independent schools in general possess a far greater degree of self-confidence than those from comps, and confidence alone get you a long way.
I went to a state school, very similar area, and with similar standards and values. And, yes, I did alright! In fact, from my year, 4 people went on to study medicine, and one vet. science. My nephew, who goes to a local state school (a failing one at that) has been to Cambridge University, for a look round, and pre-admission interview. So he's doing alright as well!
My girlfriend's daughter, a shy, intelligent girl, has just started at the same state school, and absolutely loves it! As does the daughter of one of my work partners. The school has vast facilities, it's even got a fully-equipped weights room and gym, for christ's sake!!
On the other hand, a collaegue of mine sent their sonto the private school in question, and was thrown out for being disruptive. He eventually ended up at a state school, who found him to be severely dyslexic, the true cause for his poor schooling record....
My girlfriend's daughter, a shy, intelligent girl, has just started at the same state school, and absolutely loves it! As does the daughter of one of my work partners. The school has vast facilities, it's even got a fully-equipped weights room and gym, for christ's sake!!
On the other hand, a collaegue of mine sent their sonto the private school in question, and was thrown out for being disruptive. He eventually ended up at a state school, who found him to be severely dyslexic, the true cause for his poor schooling record....
Also, I think you are right about the exam pressure etc. Here's what a typical day at my school was like:
7.30 woken by bells
8 to 8.30 breakfast
8.45 chapel
9.05 to 12.30 lessons
12.45 to 1.15 lunch
1.30 to 3 lessons
3.30 to 5.30 sports
6 to 6.30 dinner
7.30 to 9.30 studying under supervision
9.55 bed
Then on a Saturday the afternoon sessions were replaced by time in workshops being creative (making stuff like cannons and in the chemistry labs trying to make LSD - boys will be boys..). And on Sunday study only betwen 4pm and 6pm with church services in morning and evening.
The only time you got to yourself was when you took a shit. And more often than not that quality time was disturbed by some twit gobbing over the door. Though I guess it is not fair to say that's something that is only pecuuliar to private schools.)
You're right about the pressure.
I think that you have to trust your instincts on this one and if you think the school is a good one and that your kids will fit in then go for it. Seems to me that there's plenty of state schools these days that far outdo private schools in terms of quality of education.
The snob factor - now that may be the difficult one to overcome.
Good luck with this issue.
7.30 woken by bells
8 to 8.30 breakfast
8.45 chapel
9.05 to 12.30 lessons
12.45 to 1.15 lunch
1.30 to 3 lessons
3.30 to 5.30 sports
6 to 6.30 dinner
7.30 to 9.30 studying under supervision
9.55 bed
Then on a Saturday the afternoon sessions were replaced by time in workshops being creative (making stuff like cannons and in the chemistry labs trying to make LSD - boys will be boys..). And on Sunday study only betwen 4pm and 6pm with church services in morning and evening.
The only time you got to yourself was when you took a shit. And more often than not that quality time was disturbed by some twit gobbing over the door. Though I guess it is not fair to say that's something that is only pecuuliar to private schools.)
You're right about the pressure.
I think that you have to trust your instincts on this one and if you think the school is a good one and that your kids will fit in then go for it. Seems to me that there's plenty of state schools these days that far outdo private schools in terms of quality of education.
The snob factor - now that may be the difficult one to overcome.
Good luck with this issue.
The difference for me comes down to one simple thing. In state schools you are educated to pass exams, thats perfectly adequate as thats the end game, but you dont get much more.
Private school on the other hand does the required 'book learning' but it also teaches you a little more. Dealing with people etc etc.
On educational merits state school is perfectly adequate, but IMO private school goes a bit further and equips you with the interpersonal skills you invariably need in the working world.
Matt.
Private school on the other hand does the required 'book learning' but it also teaches you a little more. Dealing with people etc etc.
On educational merits state school is perfectly adequate, but IMO private school goes a bit further and equips you with the interpersonal skills you invariably need in the working world.
Matt.
yertis said:
I've found that folk from independent schools in general possess a far greater degree of self-confidence than those from comps, and confidence alone get you a long way.
It's called arrogance in some quarters.
Nubbin, you seem to have made your mind up - we just need to persuade your ex, I'm assuming she is putting the childrens' future first and not feeding her own insecurity.
PS This is not a curmudgeonly rant against my ex-wife, but is a source of considerable angst for me and my children.
Nubbin, you have said it all there mate.
The children are the most important thing, if they are old/mature enough to make informed decsions,she surely must listen to them.
It sounds like there is little chance of your ex listening to you, but she may just listen to them.
It's funny you say that, Matt, I was always of the opposite opinion! The confidence thing is a truism for private schools, but that may partially stem from the social position the children are in - wealthy parents, foreign holidays, all the trimmings that wealth brings - that carries into school life, and beyond. But, go to a tough state school, and make it through intact, with your full potential realised (it does happen!), and you are very well-equipped to deal with life's vissicitudes! (And you even learn how to spell vissicitudes!!!)
I agree to a point Matt, but private schooling (and I'm really talking about boarding) can isolate you from the real world. In our single sex school the only girl you got to see was matron (and in our school it was difficult to tell matron apart from a spanked camel).
The spectrum of learning was hugely more broad than the state option and in general the life experience much greater. But there were some basic aspects of socialising that we were not exposed to. Chicks, mainly.
Jeez, what would Mungo have done. He'd not only have beaten his Bishop, I reckon he'd have murdered the poor old fella
The spectrum of learning was hugely more broad than the state option and in general the life experience much greater. But there were some basic aspects of socialising that we were not exposed to. Chicks, mainly.
Jeez, what would Mungo have done. He'd not only have beaten his Bishop, I reckon he'd have murdered the poor old fella
This is an interesting topic, and one that has no real definite correct answer. Its like saying whether hitting your child will be good or bad for them. Its a path that you can't go back on and retry so you will never know which one was definitely right. Far too many variables.
I went to Mill Hill Boys school, after going to a state school for one year. Mill Hill had amazing facilities, but there was something missing. Half the teachers didn't REALLY care if you studied or not. Also, school didn't really finish until 7pm. I personally didn't want to do some kind of activity everyday. I just wanted to go home at 3.30pm and meet up with my friends etc.
In the end the school and I never got on and I left. I preferred the attitude of the teachers at the state school and learnt alot from them. They seemed to really give a shit.
For me, much of what Podie says matches with my experience of private schools. I wasn't boarding there, but those that did were sort of "stuck" in that world. Not all of them, some guys were constantly in the streets and getting in trouble for it, there was a set time that boarders were allowed to go outside school grounds. IMO it was a massive waste of something like £13K a year, and the boarders had to pay alot more than that.
At the end of the day, you will get out of a school what you put in it. I preferred my state school, but thats just one opinion among many. I think you should ask your children what they reckon.
PS. I know jack shit about kids other than I used to be one. I'm 24 so it wasn't that long ago, and I still remember that feeling of dread whenever I think of Mill Hill school. Incidentally, I got good GCSEs, got A Levels and got my degree in Accounting and Finance. A few of the guys I knew at Mill Hill ended up without decent GCSEs and were retaking them at another private school; I was in the first year of my degree!
Good luck whatever you choose to do.
I went to Mill Hill Boys school, after going to a state school for one year. Mill Hill had amazing facilities, but there was something missing. Half the teachers didn't REALLY care if you studied or not. Also, school didn't really finish until 7pm. I personally didn't want to do some kind of activity everyday. I just wanted to go home at 3.30pm and meet up with my friends etc.
In the end the school and I never got on and I left. I preferred the attitude of the teachers at the state school and learnt alot from them. They seemed to really give a shit.
For me, much of what Podie says matches with my experience of private schools. I wasn't boarding there, but those that did were sort of "stuck" in that world. Not all of them, some guys were constantly in the streets and getting in trouble for it, there was a set time that boarders were allowed to go outside school grounds. IMO it was a massive waste of something like £13K a year, and the boarders had to pay alot more than that.
At the end of the day, you will get out of a school what you put in it. I preferred my state school, but thats just one opinion among many. I think you should ask your children what they reckon.
PS. I know jack shit about kids other than I used to be one. I'm 24 so it wasn't that long ago, and I still remember that feeling of dread whenever I think of Mill Hill school. Incidentally, I got good GCSEs, got A Levels and got my degree in Accounting and Finance. A few of the guys I knew at Mill Hill ended up without decent GCSEs and were retaking them at another private school; I was in the first year of my degree!
Good luck whatever you choose to do.
My only personal experience with private schools (apart from meeting people in latter life who went to them) is through my nephew (my wifes sister's boy)
Now to put this in perspective you need to appreciate what the parents are like, his father is a fat, lazy, opionated, ignorrant tosser, who hasn't done a days work in years and lives "off the welfare" claiming disability for a dubious dodgy back. The mother on the other hand married the said waster at the age of 16 but is actually fairly bright, she has dedicated her life to giving her two kids the best start she could in life and spent nearly all her time reading with them and trying to ensure they had the best possible start in life before getting herself some more education as the kids got older, simply so that she could keep up with them. They live in a shitty area and locally alot of kids are in trouble with the police with drugs prevalent. Now the oldest boy because of the superb grounding he got was head and shoulders infront of all the other kids when he started school and as such was able to earn a scholarship to a very well respected local private school. Now this boy has bloomed he is now 17 going on 25, his University placement to study International Law appears a certainty and I can honestly say he is one of the most well balanced, mature, and informed 17 year olds I have ever met and stands out from his peers at home by a mile while appearing to be the norm at school. If this is what a private education does then I'd willingly pay for it if I had kids, however I honestly believe that in his case all the private school has done is "polish" what his mother has created, he would have done well at a state school, but has been able to excel at a private one.
I honestly think that for every success story like this there are dozens of kids from moneyed backgrounds but with parents who are too busy earning it to care about them who have gone the other way. The whole question of State Vs Private depends on the kid, the parents, the potential and the love in their home, it can go either way
Now to put this in perspective you need to appreciate what the parents are like, his father is a fat, lazy, opionated, ignorrant tosser, who hasn't done a days work in years and lives "off the welfare" claiming disability for a dubious dodgy back. The mother on the other hand married the said waster at the age of 16 but is actually fairly bright, she has dedicated her life to giving her two kids the best start she could in life and spent nearly all her time reading with them and trying to ensure they had the best possible start in life before getting herself some more education as the kids got older, simply so that she could keep up with them. They live in a shitty area and locally alot of kids are in trouble with the police with drugs prevalent. Now the oldest boy because of the superb grounding he got was head and shoulders infront of all the other kids when he started school and as such was able to earn a scholarship to a very well respected local private school. Now this boy has bloomed he is now 17 going on 25, his University placement to study International Law appears a certainty and I can honestly say he is one of the most well balanced, mature, and informed 17 year olds I have ever met and stands out from his peers at home by a mile while appearing to be the norm at school. If this is what a private education does then I'd willingly pay for it if I had kids, however I honestly believe that in his case all the private school has done is "polish" what his mother has created, he would have done well at a state school, but has been able to excel at a private one.
I honestly think that for every success story like this there are dozens of kids from moneyed backgrounds but with parents who are too busy earning it to care about them who have gone the other way. The whole question of State Vs Private depends on the kid, the parents, the potential and the love in their home, it can go either way
Having been through this with my daughter, and in the process of working it out with my son, I sympathise with this one.
Firstly, it's not something to generalise about- it's specifically about your son in relation to a specific school. Where is the best fit? This is not about you, or your wife, it's about your son.
Secondly, sit down and work out both options in detail from your sons' point of view; if he has to sit in traffic for an hour every day, is this in his interests? Do his interests connect with what either school has to offer?
I assume you've been round both schools with your son, and let him see what the score is? If not, this is important. In my case, my daughter goes to private school and my son will go to the local state school, because in each case these were the best fit. The kicker is of course that you won't know whether you were right until much later. Bear in mind you can change later on if you have to and that children are far more resiliant than they look.
Firstly, it's not something to generalise about- it's specifically about your son in relation to a specific school. Where is the best fit? This is not about you, or your wife, it's about your son.
Secondly, sit down and work out both options in detail from your sons' point of view; if he has to sit in traffic for an hour every day, is this in his interests? Do his interests connect with what either school has to offer?
I assume you've been round both schools with your son, and let him see what the score is? If not, this is important. In my case, my daughter goes to private school and my son will go to the local state school, because in each case these were the best fit. The kicker is of course that you won't know whether you were right until much later. Bear in mind you can change later on if you have to and that children are far more resiliant than they look.
As someone who has attended both Public and State schools, thought I might add a couple of thoughts.
I attended Bedford Modern until about the age of 13, then headed off to a local state school. Big mistake.
The majority of the students, as I would assume in most schools, were great. Unfortunately a substantial minority were enough to make life hell for a lot of people.
Im sure there are a lot of great state schools, but the risk of spending years in the company of violent smack addict pikey scrotes is not something that I believe I would ever inflict on my children (should I have any).
Unfortunately, I dont believe its possible to judge most schools just by taking a tour, the attitudes of students and staff are often not immediately apparent.
If possible, perhaps the best way to gain an opinion of this school would be to speak to people who have attended in the last couple of years?
That way you may find out the real story about the place, rather than the "official line" that parents often do not know, and schools sure as hell wont tell you.
I attended Bedford Modern until about the age of 13, then headed off to a local state school. Big mistake.
The majority of the students, as I would assume in most schools, were great. Unfortunately a substantial minority were enough to make life hell for a lot of people.
Im sure there are a lot of great state schools, but the risk of spending years in the company of violent smack addict pikey scrotes is not something that I believe I would ever inflict on my children (should I have any).
Unfortunately, I dont believe its possible to judge most schools just by taking a tour, the attitudes of students and staff are often not immediately apparent.
If possible, perhaps the best way to gain an opinion of this school would be to speak to people who have attended in the last couple of years?
That way you may find out the real story about the place, rather than the "official line" that parents often do not know, and schools sure as hell wont tell you.
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