Sad day at Caterham
Discussion
Very sad to see on the Caterham Cars website, that they have annouced that Arch Motors will be replaced by a new company as chasis manufactures for the marque. Arch go back to the earliest days of Lotus 7 manufacture, and are probably the best people in the country at producing brazed tubular structures. The press release says, after patting themselves on the back for keeping the manufacture in England, that the chassis will be lazer cut and robot welded, no doubt making them cheaper. As far as I'm aware there is no robot brazing technique, so I assume they will be MIG'd or TIG'd, losing there authentisity, their hand craftsman built quality, and their link to Chapman, indeed it makes them pretty much like a Westfield at a lot less money !
I wonder if the new manufacturers are the same people who make the exposed dashboard frame for the new CRS, that was critised by Autocar last week for being badly welded ?
I wonder if the new manufacturers are the same people who make the exposed dashboard frame for the new CRS, that was critised by Autocar last week for being badly welded ?
Technology moves on. Caterham have probably done the best thing here. More accurate and more consistent manufacture and as you say probably cheaper to boot. In the end the cars are likely to be better as a result. Hand crafted doesn't necessarily mean better and welding is stronger than soldering.
So now that Caterham now only make a Lotus 7 lookalike and their claim to be the only genuine L7 on the market looks rather weak, I think it's about time that Evo and the like tested a few of their competitors.
Come on Evo stick the Caterham up against the other factory built L7 alikes such as the Westy, Tiger, Dax etc.
Come on Evo stick the Caterham up against the other factory built L7 alikes such as the Westy, Tiger, Dax etc.
Ravon said:
tvrbob, "likely to be better as a result", I take it you didn't study engineering, or if you did your not a practical engineer ? It's the difference between a hand-made bicycle frame and a factory--made in Taiwan, both look pretty, see which one the real cyclist buys.
Money no object then sure. I wish I had the carbon fibre chassis of the 996 RSR on my car. Couldn't quite afford the extra spend!
The CSR already costs an astronomical amount for a box on wheels. I can see why they need to push costs down. In the end a weld is either up to the task or not. If it is, then over engineering whilst nice, is going to be money down the drain.
agent006 said:
Any chance someone could explain the merits of each type of weld? Is brazing better than tig, or mig?
Very briefly.
Brazing creates less heat and so has less detrimental effect on the metal and what is known as the HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) either side of the join. MIG and TIG both use inert gases to shield the weld pool from oxidisation rather than a flux as used previously.
The original chassis were brazed as that was the best method available at the time (As far as i know) whereas with the advent of MIG and TIG processes it may be that they are now better suited to the application.
>> Edited by Corpulent Tosser on Wednesday 26th October 14:10
Why are some people so afraid of change?
Caterham are ensuring the future of the company by being more commercial. This does not equal an instant reduction in quality.
Relying on old production techniques is akin to signing your own death warrant in the motor industry. Hence why the only successful mass producer of cars in the UK uses the most modern techniques.
I'm not suggesting Caterham fall into the same category, but they must embrace new technology which is commercially viable wherever possible to remain certain they will be here in 10 or 20 years.
Caterham are ensuring the future of the company by being more commercial. This does not equal an instant reduction in quality.
Relying on old production techniques is akin to signing your own death warrant in the motor industry. Hence why the only successful mass producer of cars in the UK uses the most modern techniques.
I'm not suggesting Caterham fall into the same category, but they must embrace new technology which is commercially viable wherever possible to remain certain they will be here in 10 or 20 years.
Whatever the merits of each process, brazing is the thing that set the Caterham apart from its would be rivals, now it the same as a Westfield, a Tiger, a Luego, and so on.
It's pleasing to me that Simon Saunders' wonderfully original design, the Areil Atom has it's chassis brazed together by Arch Motors. Certainly looking at spending my money, I'd far rather have an "Orginal" from Simon Saunders, than a "Venture Capital" from Caterham.
I suspect you could purchase a supercharged Honda engined Atom for less than the "bastardised & bloated" Caterham CRS, and you get to see all that beautiful brazing !
It's pleasing to me that Simon Saunders' wonderfully original design, the Areil Atom has it's chassis brazed together by Arch Motors. Certainly looking at spending my money, I'd far rather have an "Orginal" from Simon Saunders, than a "Venture Capital" from Caterham.
I suspect you could purchase a supercharged Honda engined Atom for less than the "bastardised & bloated" Caterham CRS, and you get to see all that beautiful brazing !
Ravon said:
Whatever the merits of each process, brazing is the thing that set the Caterham apart from its would be rivals, now it the same as a Westfield, a Tiger, a Luego, and so on.
It's pleasing to me that Simon Saunders' wonderfully original design, the Areil Atom has it's chassis brazed together by Arch Motors. Certainly looking at spending my money, I'd far rather have an "Orginal" from Simon Saunders, than a "Venture Capital" from Caterham.
I suspect you could purchase a supercharged Honda engined Atom for less than the "bastardised & bloated" Caterham CRS, and you get to see all that beautiful brazing !
Hmm the only atom I've seen up close didn't overwhelm me with the quality of its welding!
As to Caterham vs Atom, I guess it depends if you care about handling...
Ravon said:
Whatever the merits of each process, brazing is the thing that set the Caterham apart from its would be rivals, now it the same as a Westfield, a Tiger, a Luego, and so on.
Is your 'issue' the change in manufacturer, automated process, or actual jointing process, because brazing can be automated, though I would think that the process will probably be changed to welding.
The Fusion automatic brazing machine is custom built for your applications and enables one operator to turn out hundreds of joints per hour. Typically, parts are loaded into stainless steel fixtures which maintain proper alignment throughout the brazing or soldering cycle. The fixtured parts (assemblies) are then conveyed through a closely-timed sequence of paste alloy application, heating, and cooling.
What a load of complete and utter piffle. No doubt you were similarly overcome with grief when they started spray painting cars rather than using a brush.
As several people have already pointed out brazing was probably the best that was available at the time. The move to TIG or MIG welding is called progress.
pp
As several people have already pointed out brazing was probably the best that was available at the time. The move to TIG or MIG welding is called progress.
pp
Pickled Piper said:
As several people have already pointed out brazing was probably the best that was available at the time. The move to TIG or MIG welding is called progress.
exactly. bumped into my father earlier and he was quite catergoric that welding was the best thing for a chassis. the temperatures are that much high and you get a much stronger bond.
however, he did say something about some complex joints being better off brazed than welded because you can create a better join or something.
Pickled Piper, I love progress, I make very modern, high tech equipment, using very modern techniques, but I believe there is a place for both, and at the heart of a Caterham is a beautifully brazed Arch chassis, which allows them to charge a premium over for example Westfield, its an intagable, like just looking at a Ducati 916 or a Vincent Black Shadow ( for me !).
smifffy said:
Why are some people so afraid of change?
Caterham are ensuring the future of the company by being more commercial. This does not equal an instant reduction in quality.
Relying on old production techniques is akin to signing your own death warrant in the motor industry. Hence why the only successful mass producer of cars in the UK uses the most modern techniques.
I'm not suggesting Caterham fall into the same category, but they must embrace new technology which is commercially viable wherever possible to remain certain they will be here in 10 or 20 years.
has anyone told that to Morgan?
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