state of IT industry........I AM VERY CONFUSED!!!!
Discussion
Hello people 
I have a question for all the IT professionals on PH, which I hope you don’t mind answering.
After reading the ‘in the club’ tread and talking to a few other people I have realised that it is getting increasingly difficult to get jobs with in the IT industry. I have been trying to get help desk jobs so that I can, at least, gain experience. I see that a lot of you are pro’s and are being made redundant and frankly its starting to worry me as I am only a junior working in an I.T. (and I use that term very, very loosely) department.
What I would like to ask is, is it worth pursing a career in IT? Is all the hard work I did during college going to go to waste? Or should I stick it out and try and gain a few more qualification so that I look more appealing to prospective employers
My plans are to go back to university to study towards a CCNA. One of my strengths is working with network but only in a very small scale so I know the basics but not enough to get noticed.
I have been
myself trying to figure out some sort of career path I can follow, career advisers are useless unless you are 16 and have just left school, not a 22 year old with a decent amount of skill.
If everything does go belly up then I have been thing about things like Resource Management and similar roles, but don’t really want to go down that route.
Thank you for taking the time to read this, just looked at how much I have wrote……oooopppss……sorry
Any advise will be very much appreciated as I always value opinions from people in the know
Thanks once again
Umar B
I have a question for all the IT professionals on PH, which I hope you don’t mind answering.
After reading the ‘in the club’ tread and talking to a few other people I have realised that it is getting increasingly difficult to get jobs with in the IT industry. I have been trying to get help desk jobs so that I can, at least, gain experience. I see that a lot of you are pro’s and are being made redundant and frankly its starting to worry me as I am only a junior working in an I.T. (and I use that term very, very loosely) department.
What I would like to ask is, is it worth pursing a career in IT? Is all the hard work I did during college going to go to waste? Or should I stick it out and try and gain a few more qualification so that I look more appealing to prospective employers
My plans are to go back to university to study towards a CCNA. One of my strengths is working with network but only in a very small scale so I know the basics but not enough to get noticed.
I have been
myself trying to figure out some sort of career path I can follow, career advisers are useless unless you are 16 and have just left school, not a 22 year old with a decent amount of skill. If everything does go belly up then I have been thing about things like Resource Management and similar roles, but don’t really want to go down that route.
Thank you for taking the time to read this, just looked at how much I have wrote……oooopppss……sorry
Any advise will be very much appreciated as I always value opinions from people in the know
Thanks once again
Umar B
its a cyclical thing.
2 years ago you just had to claim to know where the power button was to ask for £50k basic in london.
things have changed somewhat now.
In my opinion IT is not going to go away, but as its not unusal for large corporations to of cut there IT budget by 10% or more, that approximately equals 10% or so less staff. or 10% less pay each.
Thats a lot of techies worse off.
A lot of whom were/are relatively well off, and own nice cars like TVR, so the group here are probably disproportionaly affected.
On the other hand 90% still have jobs, even if there is no bonus/pay rise again this year. so everyone is feeling pretty miserable.
Companies that are hiring will be looking very closely to see if there is anyone they can transfer internally so getting that first foot in the door is going to be harder. Thats gonna be much cheaper than bringing in a new person when all the pressure from 'management' is to keep costs to a minimum.
You might take an uncharitable view and say that its the chaff being sorted from the wheat right now.
but i'd suggest that the boom/easy money/daftness from 98->01 will not happen again. But give it 18 months then the whole industry will feel like an easier place to work as budgets start to creep up again, and a few folk starting jobs.
but thats just opinion from someone who has worked in this area for a mere 5 years. so what do i know?
a.
2 years ago you just had to claim to know where the power button was to ask for £50k basic in london.
things have changed somewhat now.
In my opinion IT is not going to go away, but as its not unusal for large corporations to of cut there IT budget by 10% or more, that approximately equals 10% or so less staff. or 10% less pay each.
Thats a lot of techies worse off.
A lot of whom were/are relatively well off, and own nice cars like TVR, so the group here are probably disproportionaly affected.
On the other hand 90% still have jobs, even if there is no bonus/pay rise again this year. so everyone is feeling pretty miserable.
Companies that are hiring will be looking very closely to see if there is anyone they can transfer internally so getting that first foot in the door is going to be harder. Thats gonna be much cheaper than bringing in a new person when all the pressure from 'management' is to keep costs to a minimum.
You might take an uncharitable view and say that its the chaff being sorted from the wheat right now.
but i'd suggest that the boom/easy money/daftness from 98->01 will not happen again. But give it 18 months then the whole industry will feel like an easier place to work as budgets start to creep up again, and a few folk starting jobs.
but thats just opinion from someone who has worked in this area for a mere 5 years. so what do i know?
a.
I would like to get into IT as I see it is the only career with decent wages.
My brother went to work on an IT helpdesk about 2 years ago, up until recently he was getting £500 bonuses every 3-4 months.
He was doing shift work and getting about 25k a year.
I worked at a Bank and was lucky if I got £500 a year rise,most people didn't get anything in the branches this year!!
I worked for the Woolwich for six years and they would not give me £2000 pay rise to bring my wages up to the Supervisor job I was doing.
I left there and am now temping at a call centre on £6.15 an hour
And they're unsociable hours.
Only one of the agencies have responded to me, and I am finding it difficult to find anything in Banking with my experience for over 12-15k a year.
I know someone who was in IT but walked out of his job, last year.
I just wish I had done IT instead of Banking which is now just a glorified retail/screw the customers for everything you can environment.
I think everything is flat at this time of year, hopefully things will pick up in the new year.
Lee.
My brother went to work on an IT helpdesk about 2 years ago, up until recently he was getting £500 bonuses every 3-4 months.
He was doing shift work and getting about 25k a year.
I worked at a Bank and was lucky if I got £500 a year rise,most people didn't get anything in the branches this year!!
I worked for the Woolwich for six years and they would not give me £2000 pay rise to bring my wages up to the Supervisor job I was doing.
I left there and am now temping at a call centre on £6.15 an hour
And they're unsociable hours.
Only one of the agencies have responded to me, and I am finding it difficult to find anything in Banking with my experience for over 12-15k a year.
I know someone who was in IT but walked out of his job, last year.
I just wish I had done IT instead of Banking which is now just a glorified retail/screw the customers for everything you can environment.
I think everything is flat at this time of year, hopefully things will pick up in the new year.
Lee.
Lee said. "........ Banking which is now just a glorified retail/screw the customers for everything you can environment."
How very true. It's appalling how they treat both staff and customers alike. A couple of years back they would send me 'nasty' letters about my account ....... but now that I'm particularly solvent due various factors they keep sending me exceptionally nice letters recommending I purchase some of their various investments. I got so fed up with their approaches that I wrote to my bank manager with copies of three letters the bank wrote to me back in 1999 where they charged me £25 each time for being, in one instance, £1.27 overdrawn. I told him that if they cared to reimburse these extortionate sums that I would 'consider' his propositions (would I hell). Isn't it surprising that I received a curt technical response explaining the reasons why they couldn't reimburse me!
How very true. It's appalling how they treat both staff and customers alike. A couple of years back they would send me 'nasty' letters about my account ....... but now that I'm particularly solvent due various factors they keep sending me exceptionally nice letters recommending I purchase some of their various investments. I got so fed up with their approaches that I wrote to my bank manager with copies of three letters the bank wrote to me back in 1999 where they charged me £25 each time for being, in one instance, £1.27 overdrawn. I told him that if they cared to reimburse these extortionate sums that I would 'consider' his propositions (would I hell). Isn't it surprising that I received a curt technical response explaining the reasons why they couldn't reimburse me!
I'm in a situation of no experience.
I walked out of college back in April and haven't been back. Didn't finish my course, hence no qualifications, but I looked at the job prospects and decided it wasn't worth spending another 3 months racking up more and more debt to sit on some angencies waiting list.
I can do the job, I specialised in networks and spend most of my time fixing peoples phone lines when I'm not working.
I have come to the conclusion that as a current career, I.T. is not worth following, to risky and not enough jobs about.
I walked out of college back in April and haven't been back. Didn't finish my course, hence no qualifications, but I looked at the job prospects and decided it wasn't worth spending another 3 months racking up more and more debt to sit on some angencies waiting list.
I can do the job, I specialised in networks and spend most of my time fixing peoples phone lines when I'm not working.
I have come to the conclusion that as a current career, I.T. is not worth following, to risky and not enough jobs about.
What I would like to ask is, is it worth pursing a career in IT?
Emphatically yes.
Is all the hard work I did during college going to go to waste?
I'm guessing you did something IT related. I guess it
won't go to waste.
Or should I stick it out and try and gain a few more qualification so that I look more appealing to prospective employers
If all you are aiming for is a help desk jockey,
then you don't need many qualifications for that.
My plans are to go back to university to study towards a CCNA. One of my strengths is working with network but only in a very small scale so I know the basics but not enough to get noticed.
I've no idea what a CCNA is, I thought Unis did degrees ?
I have been
I've never found career advisors to be any use.
Try subscribing to Jobserve (www.jobserve.com) and
finding out what the market place wants.
Be warned that the market place has been flatter
than Mrs Thatcher's tits all year, and sadly lots of
jobs advertised by agencies seem to be ficticious.
IT industry seems to be 90% populated by folks
with degrees.
Hmmm, the industry has definitley pulled back and there is less money being spent on IT by firms than before.
The current view is that if you have an IT solution that will SAVE the customer money, they WILL fork out for it...
In other words, show the business ROI on an IT solution, (sell value and benefits, not just speeds and feeds), and the view is not that bad.
Having said that, there are very few IT companies that have been able to adapt to this model successfully, IBM, CGEY, Cisco, HPQ are some examples... (IMHO).
CCNA is a good qualification, but couple it with some of the Project Management and ROI training around some of Cisco's breakaway technologies and you will start to look far more attractive to employers. Get a "business bent" to your techie skills...
H
The current view is that if you have an IT solution that will SAVE the customer money, they WILL fork out for it...
In other words, show the business ROI on an IT solution, (sell value and benefits, not just speeds and feeds), and the view is not that bad.
Having said that, there are very few IT companies that have been able to adapt to this model successfully, IBM, CGEY, Cisco, HPQ are some examples... (IMHO).
CCNA is a good qualification, but couple it with some of the Project Management and ROI training around some of Cisco's breakaway technologies and you will start to look far more attractive to employers. Get a "business bent" to your techie skills...
H
Thanks for the replies guys, it really is much appreciated
DCB – thanks for the info, just to clarify I am not just aiming to be a helpdesk assistant, my understanding is that helpdesk jobs seem to be a good starting point to get your foot in, but was not planning that to be a permanent job.
CCNA is Cisco Certified Network Administrator, has been highly rated by the few people i have spoken to.
I did a BTEC national diploma and passed with a higher distinction, I considered that to be a pretty good result since I was 1 of only 7 people in the whole coarse to get a higher distinction, i know that some people don't think these type of qualifications are worth anything but a do disagree
Jobserve in one of 4 web based agencies I am registered with and I go through the routine in the morning
1. Get into work
2. Check hotmail account
3. check Jobserve, GoJobSite, PlanetRecruit and ComputAppoint, for vacancies
4. send off CV and wait for reply,
And do I get any replies………. NO!!
I have been dong pretty much the same thing for the past few months, had my CV amended several times because it was “OK, but could be better”, each time uploading it to all the agencies mentioned above. Gets a bit tedious
BTW, would anybody on here mind having a look at my CV, just so I know what a professional thinks of it (is that OK ted??) cheeky to ask I know but worth asking.
Anyway, keep the opinions coming,
Thanks
Umar B
DCB – thanks for the info, just to clarify I am not just aiming to be a helpdesk assistant, my understanding is that helpdesk jobs seem to be a good starting point to get your foot in, but was not planning that to be a permanent job.
CCNA is Cisco Certified Network Administrator, has been highly rated by the few people i have spoken to.
I did a BTEC national diploma and passed with a higher distinction, I considered that to be a pretty good result since I was 1 of only 7 people in the whole coarse to get a higher distinction, i know that some people don't think these type of qualifications are worth anything but a do disagree
Jobserve in one of 4 web based agencies I am registered with and I go through the routine in the morning
1. Get into work
2. Check hotmail account
3. check Jobserve, GoJobSite, PlanetRecruit and ComputAppoint, for vacancies
4. send off CV and wait for reply,
And do I get any replies………. NO!!
I have been dong pretty much the same thing for the past few months, had my CV amended several times because it was “OK, but could be better”, each time uploading it to all the agencies mentioned above. Gets a bit tedious
BTW, would anybody on here mind having a look at my CV, just so I know what a professional thinks of it (is that OK ted??) cheeky to ask I know but worth asking.
Anyway, keep the opinions coming,
Thanks
Umar B
Harrigan said: CCNA is a good qualification, but couple it with some of the Project Management and ROI training around some of Cisco's breakaway technologies and you will start to look far more attractive to employers. Get a "business bent" to your techie skills... H
Excellet advise, thankyou
I spent 12 years in the forces then decided to get a life!! Did 12 months of self study, read every book I could get hold of and managed to get myself a prety good job in IT (doubling my salary in the process). It can be done but it takes a lot of effort, pick an area within IT that you would like to specialise in and try and learn it in depth, volunteer to help out at the local colledge or put an add in the local rag.
But most importantly...study hard, christ I sound like my dad !!!
But most importantly...study hard, christ I sound like my dad !!!
Umar,
Go for the CCNA but to be honest you need to back this up with practical experience. I have been in IT for the last 15 years and to be honest it has been fantastic. However the market has been awful for companies which has left a lot of people twiddling their thumbs. I myself have decided to escape for a year and take a break.
And if there are any agencies out there you really need to improve your service. You are living up to your poor reputation by ignoring people which is going to bite some of you when the market improves.
Good luck.
Alistair
Go for the CCNA but to be honest you need to back this up with practical experience. I have been in IT for the last 15 years and to be honest it has been fantastic. However the market has been awful for companies which has left a lot of people twiddling their thumbs. I myself have decided to escape for a year and take a break.
And if there are any agencies out there you really need to improve your service. You are living up to your poor reputation by ignoring people which is going to bite some of you when the market improves.
Good luck.
Alistair
Umar,
The industry is a bit shafted at the mo. Mainly due to the Y2k and .com shananigans, plus a bit of greed thrown in.
I've only been in IT for just over 5 years an in the last 2 - 2.5 years, I've really seen some shite in the industry. Generally people who should never be in IT in the first place (especially development). Alot of these issues has stemed from the ASP and HTML monkeys that jumped on the band-wagon and could suddenly knock up a website.
The industry is now much more cynical and as such firms are looking for more longer term solutions rather than some poorly cobbled together ASP site with spagetti code all over the place.
In my experience the more valuable IT members who were pushed aside during the .com boom (ie legancy systems, CRM, C++ etc) are now making a comeback.
The reason being is that that old C++ programmers and alike can program properly, in short ASP programmers (rather, programemrs that cut their teeth on ASP - can't program in a structured manner). This is obviously a huge generallisation but never the less true. So most companies are looking for individuals with a more structured background, hence;
Programmer : OO (Java or C++), UML, RUP
Networking : CCNA (and alike), but NOT mickey mouse MSCE's
The bottom line is that there are jobs available but you do need to be a slightly higher calibre that the rest.
It's a shite time if you are a grad or want to get into the industry.
Helpdesk is not a bad place to start (if you want to get into a support role or infrastructure). But from a development side a degree would be the only way.
It's a bugger, 'cos I'm looking around at the mo' but its been too long since I've done design and development (UML, Java) and your skills get stale quickly in IT.
Chin up old chap
Steve
The industry is a bit shafted at the mo. Mainly due to the Y2k and .com shananigans, plus a bit of greed thrown in.
I've only been in IT for just over 5 years an in the last 2 - 2.5 years, I've really seen some shite in the industry. Generally people who should never be in IT in the first place (especially development). Alot of these issues has stemed from the ASP and HTML monkeys that jumped on the band-wagon and could suddenly knock up a website.
The industry is now much more cynical and as such firms are looking for more longer term solutions rather than some poorly cobbled together ASP site with spagetti code all over the place.
In my experience the more valuable IT members who were pushed aside during the .com boom (ie legancy systems, CRM, C++ etc) are now making a comeback.
The reason being is that that old C++ programmers and alike can program properly, in short ASP programmers (rather, programemrs that cut their teeth on ASP - can't program in a structured manner). This is obviously a huge generallisation but never the less true. So most companies are looking for individuals with a more structured background, hence;
Programmer : OO (Java or C++), UML, RUP
Networking : CCNA (and alike), but NOT mickey mouse MSCE's
The bottom line is that there are jobs available but you do need to be a slightly higher calibre that the rest.
It's a shite time if you are a grad or want to get into the industry.
Helpdesk is not a bad place to start (if you want to get into a support role or infrastructure). But from a development side a degree would be the only way.
It's a bugger, 'cos I'm looking around at the mo' but its been too long since I've done design and development (UML, Java) and your skills get stale quickly in IT.
Chin up old chap
Steve
I saw a job advertised in London for IT Helpdesk support, shift work up to 11pm, Must be studying or got MCSE (I think).
13k a year!!
Agencies are cr@p, Banking job wise I have emailed for jobs through Joslin Rowe, who phoned me on two occasions then said they would pass me to their banking arm, Haven't heard anything since.
Been through Workthing and Totaljobs, aswell as Robert Walters, but have got nothing.
I have applied on line for so many jobs but perhaps one in every 10 responds.
I Just hope I get this job at an ISA/PEP helpdesk, had the interview but don't think it went that well.
That's 15-17k a year, then I maybe able to progress or move after a year and push more 20k territory.
13k a year!!
Agencies are cr@p, Banking job wise I have emailed for jobs through Joslin Rowe, who phoned me on two occasions then said they would pass me to their banking arm, Haven't heard anything since.
Been through Workthing and Totaljobs, aswell as Robert Walters, but have got nothing.
I have applied on line for so many jobs but perhaps one in every 10 responds.
I Just hope I get this job at an ISA/PEP helpdesk, had the interview but don't think it went that well.
That's 15-17k a year, then I maybe able to progress or move after a year and push more 20k territory.
robf said: Steve is right. The current shortage of jobs is in Java and C++. Don't bother about PC support - I recently advertised a position in my team and got over 100 responses.
If you want a well paid job, wait til the fire service get their rises and then apply!!!
Hmm, I wouldn't say "don't bother with PC support". What ever floats your boat. But there's bugger all money in that sector these days.
The money currently is in the systems architect roles. Unfortunatley you aint't gonna get unless you've had some serious enterprise experience. Generally these guys (since I employe one) have shed loads of integration knowledge and exceptional foundations in design principles as well as being shit hot Java / J2EE programmers, plus some infrastructure and RDBMS knowledge thrown in. Average salary for these guys is about £70K basic or £90+ an hour contracting.
IT has been a good employer over last 5/10 years. IT definitely now on a downer. Milk Cow has been well milked dry - It is easy peasy - my kids can do it. Too many people chasing too few jobs. Too many people studying/graduating for situation ever to improve except for, as in every profession, the cream. Sorry but facts of life.
umar b said:Jobserve in one of 4 web based agencies I am registered with and I go through the routine in the morning
1. Get into work
2. Check hotmail account
3. check Jobserve, GoJobSite, PlanetRecruit and ComputAppoint, for vacancies
4. send off CV and wait for reply,
And do I get any replies………. NO!!
I have been dong pretty much the same thing for the past few months, had my CV amended several times because it was “OK, but could be better”, each time uploading it to all the agencies mentioned above. Gets a bit tedious
Sorry to tell you - but that's your problem. As someone that's been directly responsible for 10's hires into the world if IT and the Internet, and indirectly for 100's, I would never ever employ someone without significant experience via an agency.
Effectivly you aren't following the prime rule of "getting into x" - you have to want to get into it - and show that directly to the employer.
With the number of experienced people in the market at the moment, you don't stand a chance. Yours would be one of the first that was weeded out as part of the 100 applications to 10 to 5 to 2 to 1.
If you want a job in IT - you have to identify the small set of companies that you want, and then prove to them directly that you are worth the risk - and yes - it is a risk - an employee with no experience can cost £5-10k to train up in real company cash, and if they don't make the grade it's all lost dosh. Much easier to pay someone £3-5k more and get some demonstrable experience.
If you want a job - research the company, find out the name of the head of IT, the help desk manager, anyone that you can, and then write a personal letter direct to that person about why they should employ you. Enclose a tailored CV - yes - that means a different one for each company that plays up the strengths of that company with yours. Even better is bypass the agencies - look on the target companies web site for jobs direct, and then ring them up and *talk* to someone about it - why you are interested, and that you are going to apply for it. If you are lucky the person you speak to will be the same person doing the sifting and the fact you rung will get you past the first "in the bin" stage.
Unless you are prepared to put in some of your time and effort you probably will be wasting your time - and the 10-20 mins that you spend each day doing your 4 steps is not what I would call "working" to find a job.
Sorry it sounds hard - but qualifications mean didly squat if the person behind them isn't different from the 100 others that have the same qualifications as you (and yes - for the last helpdesk job we advertised we got over 100 applications....)
J
Thanks everyone, this is exactly the response I was looking for
Joust – thanks very much for you input, it is very much appreciated, there was something I did not mention and that is that I always follow up, by telephone, ALL the e-mailed CVs I have sent, I make this a rule because, as you say, sending the CV in the first place would be a waste of time.
But having said that I think I have been a bit lazy by not putting the time in to actively look in other places other than the net, does trying to make a few ‘contact’ in different companies sound like a worth while thing to do so that the quality of the advise I get is better?
Admittedly I don’t have the experience people are looking for but I really have tried my hardest to do something about it. I have offered to work for FREE just so I can hang around the IT bodies. The good thing is I have met a couple of people who have kindly said they will keep in touch with me and offer any advice, and they do call me to find out what I have been up to.
My attitude to all this is that I WILL succeed in the plans I have, just got to pull my finger out and get a move on.
One of my better qualities is that I can take a lot of criticism without feeling like committing suicide, after all its going to help me, isn’t it? So any more criticism will not be taken to hart
Keep ‘em coming !!
Umar B
Joust – thanks very much for you input, it is very much appreciated, there was something I did not mention and that is that I always follow up, by telephone, ALL the e-mailed CVs I have sent, I make this a rule because, as you say, sending the CV in the first place would be a waste of time.
But having said that I think I have been a bit lazy by not putting the time in to actively look in other places other than the net, does trying to make a few ‘contact’ in different companies sound like a worth while thing to do so that the quality of the advise I get is better?
Admittedly I don’t have the experience people are looking for but I really have tried my hardest to do something about it. I have offered to work for FREE just so I can hang around the IT bodies. The good thing is I have met a couple of people who have kindly said they will keep in touch with me and offer any advice, and they do call me to find out what I have been up to.
My attitude to all this is that I WILL succeed in the plans I have, just got to pull my finger out and get a move on.
One of my better qualities is that I can take a lot of criticism without feeling like committing suicide, after all its going to help me, isn’t it? So any more criticism will not be taken to hart
Keep ‘em coming !!
Umar B
umar b said:
But having said that I think I have been a bit lazy by not putting the time in to actively look in other places other than the net, does trying to make a few ‘contact’ in different companies sound like a worth while thing to do so that the quality of the advise I get is better?
The net based job sites are, in my opinion, very poor stomping ground for your first in into a new career area. There is nothing like doing your own research.
For you, the first things that would spring to mind are;
1) Large companies that have a stated recuritment policy. An example of this is www.bpfutures.com/ - it will tell you everything, and more, that you need to know. I know if you go and look at it they only want uni graduates for the UK - but it shows you that there are companies that publish this stuff.
2) Smaller companies that you research and see a need for. An example of this might be a call centre based company such as Holiday Autos (www.holidayautos.co.uk/wsnsa.dll/WService=liveconsumer1/careers.w?table=consumer&aff=&ctryref=UK). Again - no jobs for you there but again they have a careers section with clear outlines of who they are working for.
The approach has to be personal *first*. COntact the company *before* you send the CV, and don't just contact them and say "i've sent you a CV", ask them about the job, ask them about what it entails, the range of skills needed etc. etc.
Bad move in my book - makes you look desperate and also devalues you. Think - why would you work for free if you could give positive input to the company? And if you can't give positive input - why would they employ you.
I have offered to work for FREE just so I can hang around the IT bodies.
If you want to work for free, and gain experience, check out charitable organisations - not commercial ones. Companies exist to make money - not to give away free training, and offering to work for free doesn't fit with the commercial nature of commercial companies!
The saying "get on your bike and pedal to the job" is never more true than in IT at the moment. And remember - its a fcuking great big hill you've got in front of you!
My attitude to all this is that I WILL succeed in the plans I have, just got to pull my finger out and get a move on.
The net is a fine place for information - but it *doesn't* make things happen by magic....
J
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