Discussion
Interesting article in today's Telegraph:
> The American administration is a bloodthirsty wild animal
> ============================
>
> By Harold Pinter Daily Telegraph December 11, 2002
>
> Earlier this year, I had a major operation for cancer. The operation and
its
> after effects were something of a nightmare. I felt I was a man unable to
> swim
> bobbing about under water in a deep dark endless ocean. But I did not
drown
> and
> I am very glad to be alive.
>
> However, I found that to emerge from a personal nightmare was to enter an
> infinitely more pervasive public nightmare - the nightmare of American
> hysteria, ignorance, arrogance, stupidity and belligerence; the most
> powerful
> nation the world has ever known effectively waging war against the rest of
> the
> world.
>
> "If you are not with us, you are against us," President George W. Bush has
> said. He has also said: "We will not allow the world's worst weapons to
> remain
> in the hands of the world's worst leaders." Quite right. Look in the
mirror,
> chum. That's you.
>
> America is at this moment developing advanced systems of "weapons of mass
> destruction" and is prepared to use them where it sees fit. It has more of
> them
> than the rest of the world put together. It has walked away from
> international
> agreements on biological and chemical weapons, refusing to allow
inspection
> of
> its own factories. The hypocrisy behind its public declarations and its
own
> actions is almost a joke.
>
> America believes that the 3,000 deaths in New York are the only deaths
that
> count, the only deaths that matter. They are American deaths. Other deaths
> are
> unreal, abstract, of no consequence.
>
> The 3,000 deaths in Afghanistan are never referred to. The hundreds of
> thousands of Iraqi children dead through American and British sanctions
> which
> have deprived them of essential medicines are never referred to.
>
> The effect of depleted uranium, used by America in the Gulf war, is never
> referred to. Radiation levels in Iraq are appallingly high. Babies are
born
> with no brain, no eyes, no genitals. Where they do have ears, mouths or
> rectums, all that issues from these orifices is blood.
>
> The 200,000 deaths in East Timor in 1975 brought about by the Indonesian
> government but inspired and supported by America are never referred to.
The
> 500,000 deaths in Guatemala, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Uruguay,
> Argentina
> and Haiti, in actions supported and subsidised by America, are never
> referred
> to.
>
> The millions of deaths in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia are no longer
referred
> to.
> The desperate plight of the Palestinian people, the central factor in
world
> unrest, is hardly referred to.
>
> But what a misjudgment of the present and what a misreading of history
this
> is.
> People do not forget. They do not forget the death of their fellows, they
do
> not forget torture and mutilation, they do not forget injustice, they do
not
> forget oppression, they do not forget the terrorism of mighty powers. They
> not
> only don't forget: they also strike back.
>
> The atrocity in New York was predictable and inevitable. It was an act of
> retaliation against constant and systematic manifestations of state
> terrorism
> on the part of America over many years, in all parts of the world.
>
> In Britain, the public is now being warned to be "vigilant" in preparation
> for
> potential terrorist acts. The language is in itself preposterous. How
will -
> or
> can - public vigilance be embodied? Wearing a scarf over your mouth to
keep
> out
> poison gas?
>
> However, terrorist attacks are quite likely, the inevitable result of our
> Prime
> Minister's contemptible and shameful subservience to America. Apparently a
> terrorist poison gas attack on the London Underground system was recently
> prevented.
>
> But such an act may indeed take place. Thousands of schoolchildren travel
on
> the Underground every day. If there is a poison gas attack from which they
> die,
> the responsibility will rest entirely on the shoulders of our Prime
> Minister.
> Needless to say, the Prime Minister does not travel on the Underground
> himself.
>
> The planned war against Iraq is in fact a plan for premeditated murder of
> thousands of civilians in order, apparently, to rescue them from their
> dictator.
>
> America and Britain are pursuing a course that can lead only to an
> escalation
> of violence throughout the world and finally to catastrophe. It is
obvious,
> however, that America is bursting at the seams to attack Iraq.
>
> I believe that it will do this not only to take control of Iraqi oil, but
> also
> because the American administration is now a bloodthirsty wild animal.
Bombs
> are its only vocabulary. Many Americans, we know, are horrified by the
> posture
> of their government, but seem to be helpless.
>
> Unless Europe finds the solidarity, intelligence, courage and will to
> challenge
> and resist American power, Europe itself will deserve Alexander Herzen's
> declaration - "We are not the doctors. We are the disease".
Ted, thats a bit of a biased slant put on the thread, I'm sure if you'd looked hard enough you could have found an equally strong and persuasive arguement worded by an equally articulate author from the opposite stand point (I won't attempt to do this as I can't 
)
I think you will effectively swing the poll "against" (and hence make it worthless) by pushing all the fence sitters and some of the previously "for" voters with such an emotive and well worded article included in the thread.
) I think you will effectively swing the poll "against" (and hence make it worthless) by pushing all the fence sitters and some of the previously "for" voters with such an emotive and well worded article included in the thread.
according to UNICEF, over 1,600,000 Iraqis have died in the last 11 years as a direct result of US bombs & sanctions. According to Reuters, 84,012 children under the age of five died last year. I'd wager we're doing a better job of killing, mutilating & maiming these people than Saddam could ever fantasise about. But hey, we're the good guys, right?
When will anyone learn... We are talking about a dictator who kills his own people with poison gas.
polar_ben said:according to UNICEF, over 1,600,000 Iraqis have died in the last 11 years as a direct result of US bombs & sanctions. According to Reuters, 84,012 children under the age of five died last year. I'd wager we're doing a better job of killing, mutilating & maiming these people than Saddam could ever fantasise about. But hey, we're the good guys, right?
When will anyone learn... We are talking about a dictator who kills his own people with poison gas.
I would imagine that it is more of a direct result of Saddam and his Goons getting first dibs on what does come into the country and using the rest to maintain control over his people - Carrot and stick approach.
And yes, IMO we are the good guys!
(PS: Ben any other way of getting sponsor money to you? I don't use credit cards or cheques)
and paranoid: >> Edited by mannginger on Friday 20th December 09:58
Make no mistake - this conflict is about 2 things
1) Securing access to Iraqi oilfields for the U.S. - the second largest oilfields in the world, and vital to fund America's vast trade debt and sovernment spending
2) Ensnaring Iran in a ring of U.S.-friendly, or U. S. occupied states - they're into Afghanistan now, and will never leave ("peacekeeping", my arse). Why? Because they see China as the next global threat, and it is China that is very friendly to, and welcomed in by, Iran, thereby offering another potential de-stabilising middle East influence.
There will be an invasion of Southern Iran, merely a ground extension of the "no-fly" zone, but conveniently including the richest oilfields. They'll let Saddam stay on, because he has such huge propoganda value to justify the Americans occupation in the region. They will allow continuation of the gassing, torturing, and supression, because it looks good on the front of U.S. newspapers, as does the perpetuation of the 9/11 thing.
George Bush is an isolationist nutter, and the most dangerous man alive today. Tony Blair is a pathetic, toadying fool, using reflected power to further his own presidential/international statesman aspirations. Whatever happened to morals and rights in this country?
1) Securing access to Iraqi oilfields for the U.S. - the second largest oilfields in the world, and vital to fund America's vast trade debt and sovernment spending
2) Ensnaring Iran in a ring of U.S.-friendly, or U. S. occupied states - they're into Afghanistan now, and will never leave ("peacekeeping", my arse). Why? Because they see China as the next global threat, and it is China that is very friendly to, and welcomed in by, Iran, thereby offering another potential de-stabilising middle East influence.
There will be an invasion of Southern Iran, merely a ground extension of the "no-fly" zone, but conveniently including the richest oilfields. They'll let Saddam stay on, because he has such huge propoganda value to justify the Americans occupation in the region. They will allow continuation of the gassing, torturing, and supression, because it looks good on the front of U.S. newspapers, as does the perpetuation of the 9/11 thing.
George Bush is an isolationist nutter, and the most dangerous man alive today. Tony Blair is a pathetic, toadying fool, using reflected power to further his own presidential/international statesman aspirations. Whatever happened to morals and rights in this country?
In true Reactionary Nihilist style, I voted for the war. I shall now read the article. 
edit:
>> Edited by CarZee (moderator) on Friday 20th December 10:18
edit:
I think they're breeding British politicians... the rectums must grow later - or how would they talk?
Babies are born with no brain, no eyes, no genitals.
>> Edited by CarZee (moderator) on Friday 20th December 10:18
I voted "No" before I read the article. 
Surely people will already have an opinion before they read someone else's, I cant believe that someone will think "Oh hold on, how stupid have I been. There was me thinking the whole world was in danger but in fact its just Bush and his personal campaign"
People seem to be getting confused with the current threat and a possible threat, and the US happily band the lot together to build up support.
What has Al Quida got to do with Saddam Hussien? Only that he is also a threat! WTF, what has he done to the West, sorry the US?
I have not heard Bin Laden's name mentioned for months.
It all sticks of political bullshit, and I feel for the Iraqi people that must be shitting themselves at the imminent attack looming over their heads.
These people are suffering hardship and death at levels that the people in the comfy west can only dream about, or watch on TV, feel sad for a week then get on with their nice lives.
I never hear people talk about this.
I will not even mention that Iraq has around 30% of the worlds oil reserves, with the rest held by other neighbours, Saudi Arabia has 50 or 60%.
Surely people will already have an opinion before they read someone else's, I cant believe that someone will think "Oh hold on, how stupid have I been. There was me thinking the whole world was in danger but in fact its just Bush and his personal campaign"
People seem to be getting confused with the current threat and a possible threat, and the US happily band the lot together to build up support.
What has Al Quida got to do with Saddam Hussien? Only that he is also a threat! WTF, what has he done to the West, sorry the US?
I have not heard Bin Laden's name mentioned for months.
It all sticks of political bullshit, and I feel for the Iraqi people that must be shitting themselves at the imminent attack looming over their heads.
These people are suffering hardship and death at levels that the people in the comfy west can only dream about, or watch on TV, feel sad for a week then get on with their nice lives.
I never hear people talk about this.
I will not even mention that Iraq has around 30% of the worlds oil reserves, with the rest held by other neighbours, Saudi Arabia has 50 or 60%.
We are talking about a dictator who kills his own people with poison gas. And before anyone starts this has nothing to do with religion, iraq is NOT a nation of islam followers
Jeez, this is the problem, the majority of people in the west do not :
1. follow international politicas enough. If you did you'd realise that we happily sold Saddam the chemicals he may have used and provided him the intelligence to attack the village. (there is also evidence that Iran actually killed the people in that village too, nobody really knows - it was on the front line of the Iran Iraq dispute. Still I believe the Iranians also held us/nato provided weaponry at that time too but we need to keep them on side right now so it's not mentioned...)
Yes he may have done it, yes theres lots of other evidence that he's not a nice guy. See however that this is being used as propaganda, facts are not part of the equation.
2. Iraqs people are in the majority Moslem. They follow the Islamic faith, they read the Quran and follow the Five Pillars of Islam.
There is a massive distiction between being a follower of the Prophet Mohammed, and being prepared to take up arms to fight a terrorist war in the name of Osama Bin Laden. The two are in my view utterly unconnected.
In the same way would you brand every Catholic a terrorist? (you'd have a far better evidence to go on...)
Does the fact that a large government building in Oaklahoma being blown up by christian fundamentalists types mean that white american christians were ever demonised as the enemy?
Think, read understand. Don't just watch the news and form an opinion based on a 2 minute soundbite.
IMHO, war is inevitible. This is nothing to do with weapons of mass destruction or North Korea would be top of the list. This is about America flexing its imperial muscles now that it has emerged from the cold war victorious.
America is the new Rome, the new British Empire if you like. It will do as it pleases as is it's wont. How long this empire will last, who can say, but for now they are top dog and making sure everyone knows that.
Iraq is a target partly because it is symbolic of US impotence and partly about the value of oil.
>> Edited by mr_tony on Friday 20th December 10:43
America is the new Rome, the new British Empire if you like. It will do as it pleases as is it's wont. How long this empire will last, who can say, but for now they are top dog and making sure everyone knows that.
Iraq is a target partly because it is symbolic of US impotence and partly about the value of oil.
>> Edited by mr_tony on Friday 20th December 10:43
A highly charged and emotional article, also a bit inaccurate, the sanctions were never about restricting food and medicinal aid, and the oil is not the issue (it is accessable via Kuwait apparently)
It is bloody scary and the US does appear to have an insular view of itself but I do agree with the war on Iraq and I have heard from very informed and knowledgable people that the reasons are not as cynical as popularly believed, just hope they're correct
It is bloody scary and the US does appear to have an insular view of itself but I do agree with the war on Iraq and I have heard from very informed and knowledgable people that the reasons are not as cynical as popularly believed, just hope they're correct
Bush is a nutcase of the highest order. His attempts to secure free Iraqi oil for the yanks could end up with us in the UK paying the price.
The US is not likely to suffer another 9/11 but we have hoards of unknown people entering our country from France (some of them real rufugees i know). How hard do you think it is for terrorists to cross the English Channel ? Not hard in my opinion.
>> Edited by ALM on Friday 20th December 11:09
The US is not likely to suffer another 9/11 but we have hoards of unknown people entering our country from France (some of them real rufugees i know). How hard do you think it is for terrorists to cross the English Channel ? Not hard in my opinion.
>> Edited by ALM on Friday 20th December 11:09
Lots of highly charged emotions around this issue. I believe, though, that it doesn't help anybody's argument to say things which are obviously untrue. To describe Bush as a bloodthirsty imbecile is simply silly. How about "not particulary intelligent" and "on the hawk side of average"?
One thing I've noticed, people either like the Moslem world or they don't, hardly anybody seems indifferent. Same thing with Americans, seems people either like them or hate them
John
One thing I've noticed, people either like the Moslem world or they don't, hardly anybody seems indifferent. Same thing with Americans, seems people either like them or hate them
John
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